Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 20:41:46 -0400 From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_home.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The ongoing, uninspiring PFD debate Dear Mike, <<PS - I think the overheating effects of a PFD are exaggerated. I wear a PFD and farmer john in any but _very_ warm water conditions.>> I wonder how many of the "all the time" camp folks have actually ever been in truly hot conditions. I seriously doubt that you are in warm water with a farmer john wetsuit, Mike. Have you ever had heat exhaustion? Have you ever been really dehydrated? Have you ever lost control of your body due to heat-induced cramps? If any of you agree that putting wearing a wetsuit in hot conditions could cause heat exhaustion, then a PFD by that same reasoning would too. Insulation is insulation. Try wearing both a PFD and a farmer john wetsuit when the water is in the high 90s and the air is the same. I would die! But according to Dana, I should. ---------------------------------------------------------------- This touching bit from Dana Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 14:51:06 -0400 From: dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Darwins theory of the PFD debate <<If you don't wear your PFD you stand a good chance of drowning and or your body not being found for several days and you gene pool belongs where it belongs, crab food.>> "where it belongs"! So, now I'm supposed to DIE! What a lovely thing to say. MY POSITION: IF (and only IF) you are in conditions that dictate the removal of your PFD for safety reasons, i.e. that there is a high likelihood that you will get heat exhaustion if you wear it, then take it off. This is the only time I'm saying that it's OK to do this people (though the very, very rare instance of being in pounding big surf is another). You should always make sure that it is closeby. Practicing putting it on from your chosen alternative location in varying sea conditions makes good safety sense. You cannot defy the laws of thermal physics. If you are in truly hot conditions, you will over-heat if you have an inch of foam on your core. This is not an opinion. I don't believe you folks who claim you paddle in both hot water and hot weather. Either it must not be really hot or you're all superhumans... capable of withstanding intense heat over long periods of time. Maybe you're not paddling hard enough to get overheated. About setting an example: I can't argue with this. Paddlers should project an image of 'safety first', especially in front of kids. This has nothing to do with the fact that it is unsafe to wear one when in conditions that would produce heat exhaustion. Teach common sense too. Let's debate on something more interesting... like the virtues of wearing underwear all the time! "Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." Cheers, Preacher Dave *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Williams wrote: > > Let's debate on something more interesting... like the virtues of wearing > underwear all the time! > Nope, never do it. I blame my attitude on reading Colin Fletcher's "The Complete New Walker" at a tender age. Something about the First Law of Thermodynamic Walking touched a chord. Read the book - you'll figure it out. <big grin> Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Williams wrote an intellegent and compelling agrument supporting his case reagarding situations where PFD use is not indicated. I, for one, defer to his judgement on these specific cases. * huge snip of all the important stuff * << Let's debate on something more interesting... like the virtues of wearing underwear all the time! "Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there." Cheers, Preacher Dave >> Amen, brother! Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I had hoped to stay out of this one but here goes: I ALWAYS wear a PFD and neoprene (white water style) skirt here in Florida. I am usually quite comfortable and find that the PFD may even act as an insulator, keeping the heat of the sun off my back. If I start feeling warm, I'll roll over for a minute or so in the cool (86F) water, making sure to circulate the water between the PFD and the skirt while I'm upside down. I was out at noon last Sunday for a few hours in 92F bright sun and felt absolutely comfortable. I would NOT feel comfortable without my PFD, nor do I feel comfortable driving without seat belts. I have had a couple of close calls, almost being knocked over by a panicked manatee and once by what I think was a salt water croc in Florida Bay. Then there's the ever-present drunks. cya *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Dave Williams" <dave_at_paddleasia.com> > > <<PS - I think the overheating effects of a PFD are exaggerated. I wear a > PFD and farmer john in any but _very_ warm water conditions.>> > > I wonder how many of the "all the time" camp folks have actually ever been > in truly hot conditions. I seriously doubt that you are in warm water with > a farmer john wetsuit, Mike. That's right. I said any *but* _very_ warm water... Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Denton wrote: "Then there's the ever-present drunks." Apparently, as a reason to wear a PFD. I'm afraid I don't see his logic here. Bob, can you give me more details? Now I strongly advocate the use of a PFD most of the time (but still fall in with the situational camp on this). Say I'm about to be run down by a drunken powerboater (or a sober one checking out Melissa who dove off that other boat and hasn't yet realized what happened to her bikini top;-), what do I do? Say he looked up, saw my buddy in front of him and violently swerved right towards me, lets say about three seconds to impact. Sidebar: The Tsunami Rangers at first argued against PFD use as being dangerous for a strong swimmer, because in the surf you couldn't swim under the big dumping breakers and would get hammered at the surface and possibly dragged into the rocks by the turbulence. Later they decided that in ocean rock gardens some PFD's actually made good "rib protectors" and wore them along with a lot of plastic motocross body armor. I think they had a point about swimming in 6 to 10 foot dumping surf but on the two occasions I know of where paddlers were caught in 15 to 20 foot surf (one on purpose one by accident--see "Deep Trouble" page 46 for the accident). The "on purpose" paddler went out the same river as the accident guy. He intended to ride back in on the really big January storm waves (with a camera in a waterproof box bolted into his front deck and facing back at him). He needed to go out the river because nobody could get out through that surf that day any other way. He told me about his experience about a half hour after it happened. Actually I had just asked him why he wasn't out in the breakers for the contest that was about to start. I was confused seeing him on shore because he was one of the best contestants in big surf. He told me: "My knees were still shaking". He said that as he started in to shore a huge set breaking much further out than most waves (which were already huge--I have videos to prove it) engulfed him. That first huge breaker stripped him of his whitewater kayak, both his wetsuit booties and ripped the camera out of the deck of the kayak (they both floated to shore separately). He was being tumbled down the face of this huge tumbling breaker totally engulfed in the foam and turbulence. But, unlike what happens with a 10 to 12 footer, this breaker was so big he was held in the foam and being tumbled forward down the face until he was getting really desperate for air. Maybe his PFD was holding him there. Maybe it wasn't. It wouldn't have mattered anyhow because he had no idea which way was up or down, so how would he know which way to swim if released? He thought: "Maybe I can grit my teeth and open my lips a crack and suck some air out of the foam without taking in too much salt water with it". He rejected that idea as wishful thinking and guessed that he would just start choking and drown (Note: some experts tell me you can actually do this but I have never tried it--and would want to practice it a lot in benign conditions before I tried it for real). All the time he was tumbling he had a death grip on his PFD because he is afraid that the breaker would strip him of that too. Why did he want to keep it on? Because he knew that if this wave ever let him go the PFD would automatically return him to the surface even though he had no way of then knowing which way was up. Finally everything got quiet and he knew the wave had passed over him and since he had managed to retain his PFD he was headed for the surface. The question in his mind was: would he get there in time? It seemed to be taking forever and he was sure he would black out in any second and drown if he didn't get to the surface soon. He burst to the surface, gasped loudly and lived to tell the story. But I digress, there is a powerboater three seconds from impact with me, what should I do? I think I'd capsize and try to dive below the surface and let the kayak take a glancing blow and hopefully have cleared the propellers with my vitals so I didn't end up looking like a Florida Manatee. You know propeller tattooed. I think one might stand a better chance with this drunk powerboater without a PFD. "Rib protesters" can only take so much abuse. Of course, except under special circumstances I still would wear a PFD because I tend to look for the best odds (that still allow for doing what I want to do) and realize you can't protect yourself from everything. Overheating: I have a high metabolism and give off a tremendous amount of heat. A regular human radiator. If a PFD wasn't required during a kayak race I wouldn't use one. I remember one 13 mile race on a rare 99 degree day in the San Juan Islands. I was trying to hold my lead but was getting seriously overheated even though I was splattering myself with the 55 degree water at the end of nearly every stroke. I'd push my hand down to the water at the end of a stroke and use the last three fingers to fling water across my sides and chest as I was withdrawing the blade. It has been so many years I can't remember if I was wearing a PFD over my T-shirt or not that race. Warning: I once made the mistake of not wearing a T-shirt to try to stay cooler in a race where a PFD was required. BIG mistake! I rubbed my nipples raw on the nylon PFD. They are still sometimes real sensitive on long kayak trips when my T-shirt gets salt encrusted and the PFD or Farmer John's has been rubbing over them (on the other side of the T-shirt) many hours a day. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > Warning: I once made the mistake of not wearing a T-shirt to try to stay > cooler in a race where a PFD was required. BIG mistake! I rubbed my nipples > raw on the nylon PFD. They are still sometimes real sensitive on long kayak > trips when my T-shirt gets salt encrusted and the PFD or Farmer John's has > been rubbing over them (on the other side of the T-shirt) many hours a day. Marathon (ok, 1/2) training taught me the bandaids on the nipples trick for long runs. Beats bleeding on your t-shirt. And the looks you get at the put-in/take-out are priceless. Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
RE/ > this breaker was so big he >was held in the foam and being tumbled forward down the face until he was >getting really desperate for air. Maybe his PFD was holding him there. Maybe >it wasn't. It wouldn't have mattered anyhow because he had no idea which way >was up or down, Having spent 11 of my formative years surfing the North Shore of Oahu, I'd put my money on "...was...". My recollection is that you need to go deep to avoid the soup: a very turbulant mixture of water and air that isn't dense enough to float anything, but which has enough energy to make you the rough equivalent of a tadpole in a washing machine. The only two tickets out of that stuff are time and sinking into the "real" water beneath it. Once you're in it , all you can do is relax as much as possible to conserve air and wait it out - hoping to sink deep enough to get out of it a little sooner. The sink-ier you are, the sooner it's over. Floatation keeps you in the stuff longer. I base that on experiences I had trying to ride it out with my arms and legs wrapped around my board. Also, it seems pretty clear to me that with floatation you have little or no chance of avoiding going over the falls if you're positioned in that unhappy spot. ----------------------- Pete Cresswell *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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