Just one?! All three could raise religious debates! But, the feathered vs. unfeathered, rudder vs. no, PFD vs. no, and roll vs. no roll debates have seen enough discussion lately--it's time for a fresh horse, right? 20-year-old Seakayakers: I don't think seakayaking is seen as exciting enough for my generation which was weaned on MTV and "extreme" sports. I can't really explain how I was attracted to the sport at age 21. My brother was working in Glacier NP on one of the most beautiful lakes in the world. One of his coworkers built wooden driftboats, and they got to talking about other small wooden craft. My bro and I are both hobbyist woodworkers, so wooden kayaks sounded like a fun winter project. The affection for seakayaking snowballed from there. Still, most of our friends view it as a strange sport and ask us why we don't whitewater kayak. WW kayaking seems like too much driving for my likes what with all that shuttling. Most of my seakayaking acquaintances are at least 30. Minority groups in seakayaking: It's an interesting observation. I don't have an answer for it, but I've noticed it before. I've met a few Latino American kayakers, some Asian American kayakers, plenty of Scandinavian American and Anglo American kayakers, but no African American kayakers. I have also seen few Native American kayakers and canoers, and they were the indigenous originators of our sports. Of course, the Native American tribes in Montana weren't historically canoeing people, but they continue to be amazing horsemen. The Salish were seagoing people on the NW coast, but the Salish in Montana were displaced far overland and away from the large cedar trees they used to carve into canoes, so they were mostly forced away from canoeing. I also appreciate Wes's quote from his North Shore colleague. Most caucasians have no concerns about ending discrimination, and can spend more free time in "self-actualization" type pursuits and communing with nature. If you have to worry about defending your basic freedoms, then recreation time seems a bit unimportant. Comparative rescues: Is it more likely to have 2 singles both capsize than two people in a double? I think it's easier for a single capsize victim to be rescued by a rescuer in a single than two capsize victims to get back in a double. However, if the singles are more likely to capsize before a double, then my hypothesis is a moot point. With 2 paddlers of the same skill, it's probably easier with the double. With two paddlers of differing skill, the more-skilled paddler could solo rescue in their single, and then do an assisted rescue of the less-skilled paddler. Shawn ralph diaz wrote: >Hmmm. I seemed to have raised three subjects, one that may be taboo: >1. 20 yr old sea kayakers >2. African-Americans in seakayaking >3. Comparative rescues in all-in-the-water situations involving two >singles vs. 2 paddlers in a double -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N © 2000 ____©/______ 114°06'W ~~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^\ ,/ /~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^ baker_at_montana.com 0 http://www.geocities.com/shawnkayak/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I am one minority who wishes we American would give this minority or race subject a rest. There may be lots of reasons native Americans or black American or Latino Americans or Asian Americans (or whatever Americans) don't take to kayaking, but I'm not interested in these endless speculations. What is clear to me is that in America, more than in any other country in the world, if you want to do something, you are free to do so. A native American youngster does not have to stay in the reservation. If he has the determination to get an education and get into a line of work, the opportunity and means are there if he looks. A black American does not have to stay in the ghetto. An Asian American does not have to stay in a dish-washing job. I say this as a foreigner who immigrated to America (from China). I find that it is foreign immigrants like me who realize what a good country this is, whereas Americans who were born in America like to talk about how unfair or unequitable or un-diverse or culturally insensitive or <fill in your own bad word> their country is. About 20 years ago I worked with some teenage Vietnamese boat people. They started with no money. In I think less than 3 years one of them was in an electical union in the NYC area making good money, and his brother or fraternal cousin was making decent money in some small retail shop. Kayaking is something that never would have crossed their minds because to them the most important thing was to get work and start moving into the American mainstream. Jack Fu 47°38'N 122°08'W -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Shawn W. Baker Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Taboo Subjects (was: Double Fatality) <snip> Minority groups in seakayaking: It's an interesting observation. I don't have an answer for it, but I've noticed it before. I've met a few Latino American kayakers, some Asian American kayakers, plenty of Scandinavian American and Anglo American kayakers, but no African American kayakers. I have also seen few Native American kayakers and canoers, and they were the indigenous originators of our sports. Of course, the Native American tribes in Montana weren't historically canoeing people, but they continue to be amazing horsemen. The Salish were seagoing people on the NW coast, but the Salish in Montana were displaced far overland and away from the large cedar trees they used to carve into canoes, so they were mostly forced away from canoeing. I also appreciate Wes's quote from his North Shore colleague. Most caucasians have no concerns about ending discrimination, and can spend more free time in "self-actualization" type pursuits and communing with nature. If you have to worry about defending your basic freedoms, then recreation time seems a bit unimportant. <snip> -- Shawn W. Baker 0 46°53'N *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Fu wrote: > > I am one minority who wishes we American would give this minority > or race subject a rest. I hope you don't mean to cut off discussion of a subject and are just strongly voicing an opinion. As another minority, I would like to hear the subject vented. I see no harm in doing so. > > There may be lots of reasons native Americans or black American or > Latino Americans or Asian Americans (or whatever Americans) don't > take to kayaking, but I'm not interested in these endless speculations. I am interested in trying to figure out the reasons why there are so few minorities, especially African Americans in kayaking and other outdoor activities. But, more importantly, in any outreach that can be done. I am not certain what may be wrong with helping others get the enjoyment many of us on this listserve get from our kayaking and hiking, to name just one other outdoor activity. That is the crux of the discussion. > What is clear to me is that in America, more than in any other country > in the world, if you want to do something, you are free to do so. > A native American youngster does not have to stay in the reservation. > If he has the determination to get an education and get into a line > of work, the opportunity and means are there if he looks. A black > American does not have to stay in the ghetto. An Asian American does > not have to stay in a dish-washing job. I say this as a foreigner who > immigrated to America (from China). I find that it is foreign > immigrants like me who realize what a good country this is, whereas > Americans who were born in America like to talk about how unfair > or unequitable or un-diverse or culturally insensitive or > <fill in your own bad word> their country is. I am not certain I agree with your last sentence...we were not talking along those lines. A big reason why minorities don't take advantage of the nature around them on water and on land is a matter of lack of knowledge about it. I will give you a couple of examples. When I was a hotshot VP at an international business consulting/publishing company 20 years ago, I talked my boss into footing the bill for several company hikes on the Appalachian Trail and other trails not far north of Manhattan. I hired a bus, bought cheap daypacks and canteens, etc. for those who did not have them. We got about 20 to 30 employees on each trip about half of whom were Latinos and African Americans who never once before had set foot in the woods. Once I got them over the fear of bears and snakes and wolves, whatever, I showed them how to work with topo maps, explained how trail blazes work and showed how trails are terraced and otherwise constructed and maintained, showed them old carriage roads and talked about the history of the woods we were walking. Some of these minorities later continued to go hike on their own. I know because they asked me where to get the gear, find maps, locate trails and find public transportation to them; and take family members with them. Closer on hand is the 5-year old Downtown Boathouse Public free kayaking program. It draws all colors of people and from all walks of life. Often it is black families and Latino families. Being Latino (I was born here but spoke only Spanish for the first 4 years of my life), I take great delight with the latter; and I am also heartened by the blacks as well. The program gets over fears of the water and water quality. Where else can a black mother with 4 kids in tow be able to entertain them for a few hours free of charge in a healthy outdoor activity? This scene is repeated several times a day on any any weekend at the Boathouse. It is one of the great things about the Boathouse, the melting pot and mixing pot of kids with boom boxes, Dutch tourists, yuppies, Puerto Rican and black families, and even an 88 year old Asian man who bikes up and takes one of the kayaks out for 20 minutes before continuing on on his merry way. I am not sure how much such minority users of the free program later get kayaks and strike off on their own. But one thing I know for certain: if no one makes an effort to help them learn the option they have (that you point out above), they are not likely to find out by themselves via osmosis. > > About 20 years ago I worked with some teenage Vietnamese boat people. > They started with no money. In I think less than 3 years one of them > was in an electical union in the NYC area making good money, and > his brother or fraternal cousin was making decent money in some small > retail shop. Kayaking is something that never would have crossed > their minds because to them the most important thing was to get > work and start moving into the American mainstream. Jack Fu Well what is that saying about "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy." As various minorities arrive into the mainstream there is something more to life than work. Every immigrant group has gone through this. I assure you that Jewish immigrants at the turn of the century at first did not think of anything but jobs to support their families. Later they did turn to outdoor activities and now, at least in Manhattan outdoor shops, half the gear is bought by their offspring. It bothers me that more minorities are not benefiting from the natural beauty not too far away from their urban life. I know from my own personal experience and that of people I have helped that they are not adverse to enjoying the outdoors than are the people who current tramp the woods and paddle the waters. It's plain ole lack of knowledge and familiarity with such pursuits that keeps them away. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote: >> A big reason why minorities don't take advantage of the nature around them on water and on land is a matter of lack of knowledge about it. I keep hearing this kind of argument in endless astonishing mutations. For example: * I didn't know that there are woods and parks where you can get away from mean city streets and take a walk through the woods. (BTW, I used to live in NYC and, before I had a car, I took public transportation to some nice places where there are trees, streams, etc.) * I see people (even people of color!) paddling on the river but I never dreamed that an underprivileged person like me could find a way to do that. * I didn't know that for an annual fee of 10 dollars (not sure about the amount) I can get a NY Public Library card and read and borrow books there. (Oh but where is an underprivileged kid like me going to find 10 dollars?) * I didn't know that smoking is bad for my health. I have lung cancer now but it's not my fault, since nobody told me smoking can do this to me. * I didn't know sharing needles and can give me AIDS. * I didn't know having sex could get me pregnant. It reminds me of what used to be called the White Man's Burden: If only Big Shot Great White Man would educate me on how I can get to a place with trees and streams, on how to find where I can learn a skill, on how to avoid getting pregnant, on the importance of wearing a raincoat when I go out in the rain so I won't catch pneumonia... then I would be lifted out of my slough of despond and become a happy and fulfilled person. It goes on and on. >> I hope you don't mean to cut off discussion of a subject Good heavens, cut off discussion of this subject? There's no way anyone can hope to cut off discussion of this subject. It is the great American passion. Just turn to any newspaper or magazine, or turn on the TV. >> As various minorities arrive into the mainstream there is something more to life than work. Really Ralph? I never knew that! Jack Fu 47°38'N 122°08'W *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 06:25 PM 9/25/2000 -0700, Jack Fu wrote: >It goes on and on. > > >> I hope you don't mean to cut off discussion of a subject > >Good heavens, cut off discussion of this subject? There's no way >anyone can hope to cut off discussion of this subject. It is the >great American passion. Just turn to any newspaper or magazine, >or turn on the TV. > > >> As various minorities arrive into the mainstream there is >something more to life than work. > >Really Ralph? I never knew that! > >Jack Fu >47°38'N 122°08'W Jack, Ralph and All: A few thoughts. Diaz and Fu discussing their views on minorities = you left out the Gui Low (phonetic, but not romanization of "Grey Ghost Foreign Devil). I am a White-Anglo-Saxon who was raised in North Central Texas in the sticks (and to think about it I don't have to say I'm sorry, but I can't help it either). There were no Afro Americans (what is politically correct here?) in the town of 2,000 closest to us. There were plenty of Mexican Americans and just as many illegal Mexicans. I married a JAP: let me explain - born and raised on Okinawa with a Okinawan Mother and a Russian Jewish Father - ergo JAP. I joined the Army and was rewarded with a beautiful wife (twenty five years and counting) and daughter. We moved to Hong Kong and travelling the Pacific Rim I discovered what it meant to be a minority, one with money compared to many that I came into contact with, but a minority just the same. I speak Cantonese fluently (starting to loose it due to lack of use), but it helped me discover a whole new world. A culture that was totally alien to me. One that was predominately Buddhist and had annual Ghost Festivals (At first I thought they were Goat Festivals, but soon found out differently when I explained to a fellow that where I was from we raised Angora Goats. He said Angry Ghosts. I said Yeah, Angora Goats. So much for communications, but I still don't participate in Ghost Festivals). In the early development of the Western United States minorities played a significant roll. The greatest Indian Fighters were Black Calvary who later went to help Teddy Roosevelt win the Spanish American War - The Buffalo Soldiers! There were great African American Cowboys as well. The Chinese helped build the rail roads along with the Irish. Are we a racist culture? I believe so. I think many are so not out of specific decisions, but out of ignorance and fear preferring to be around those most like themselves. Less than other places in the world (Japan, Australia, China), but racist none the less. I had dinner with a Chinese business person in Singapore a few months ago and she asked what I thought about China. I expressed my concerns over Hong Kong given China's action in Tibet. She flatly stated that she was a card carrying Communist and felt that I was wrong. I told her that she would learn now or in the after life, but the Tibetans are no less human than she is. She seemed to be able to accept my deep felt beliefs. I didn't attack her, but the issues. Don't kill the sinner, but address the sin. In many instances I believe that it isn't by choice or design, but by cultural differences and just plain lack of exposure to an endeavor that we don't see more African American Kayakers or Chinese Poll Vaulters. There have been great fisherman, whalers, explorers, climbers and yes kayakers that are other than WHITE! The economics of change and plain old racist actions that have restricted many minorities from pursuing interests that were natural to their historical culture or beyond their sphere of exposure are falling. As they said in "Crazy People": "The reason that Japanese quality is better than American is because they are short and their eyes are closer to their work." This and other hasty generalizations go a long way towards justification of many bad "rationals" for some. We should encourage all to celebrate the opportunities that exist today. It is now, more than ever a matter of choice. I choose to participate in Sea Kayaking. I don't know of any of my ancestors that pursued such interests. But we all have relative freedom of choice. Relative to our inclinations and economic priorities. I choose to celebrate my uniqueness and the differences I discover in others. Regardless of skin color! Thank God we aren't all alike! Paddle With Pride! Fred *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jack Fu wrote: > > * I didn't know that there are woods and parks where you can get > away from mean city streets and take a walk through the woods. > (BTW, I used to live in NYC and, before I had a car, I took public > transportation to some nice places where there are trees, streams, > etc.)SNIPPED > > * I didn't know that for an annual fee of 10 dollars (not sure > about the amount) I can get a NY Public Library card and read and > borrow books there. (Oh but where is an underprivileged kid like me > going to find 10 dollars?) Actually library cards in NYC are free; have been for over a century. > > It reminds me of what used to be called the White Man's Burden: > If only Big Shot Great White Man would educate me on how I can get > to a place with trees and streams, on how to find where I can learn > a skill, on how to avoid getting pregnant, on the importance of > wearing a raincoat when I go out in the rain so I won't catch > pneumonia... then I would be lifted out of my slough of despond and > become a happy and fulfilled person. I am not sure I follow you. But this is as good a time as any to tell my Lone Ranger and Tonto story. The pair are riding across the plains when suddenly they see a band of Indians following them along the ridge lines to either side of them. The pair gallops faster only to see that the way ahead is cut off by another band. The pair wheels around to retreat to find the way behind them blocked. The Lone Ranger turns to Tonto and asks "What do we do now?" Tonto looks him up and down and responds "What do you mean we, White Man!" I guess you hada be there. > > It goes on and on. Okay. I was manning a watertrail booth at the Yonkers Riverfest on Saturday along with other environmental interest groups that had booths there (For non-New Yorkers, Yonkers is a large town on the Hudson bordering on NYC on the north). Along came an African American woman in her 50s with several of her teenage sons. I guess I must look like a sympathetic type. And so she and her sons almost all at once asked "What is that thing over there? We can see it from our apartment and have looked at it even through binoculars but we don't know what it is." I looked at what they were pointing toward. It was the Palisades, a line of igneous rock cliffs up to about 300 feet high that run for some 15 miles on the New Jersey side of the Hudson. The boys had lived there in Yonkers all their lives and she probably a good portion of hers. They did not know about the Palisades, honest. The Yonkers Riverfest had bought them out and wandering into our exhibits area; they had decided to ask because of the event's river focus. At the next booth it so happens was a Park Ranger with an exhibit on of all things, the Palisades Interstate Park. He was able to hand them a map and some brochures and talk to them about the wonders of this very special place within minutes of their urban world, which I am sure you probably visited when you lived here. And we told them how to get there by public transportation. Jack, did we somehow do something wrong or that you may find offensive in helping those people out? > >> As various minorities arrive into the mainstream there is > something more to life than work. > > Really Ralph? I never knew that! I don't know why but I am always saddened when I see a person turn to sarcasm. It is such a waste and so mean spirited. I have never understood why anyone ever resorts to it. best, ralph -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote: >> Jack, did we somehow do something wrong or that you may find offensive >> in helping those people out? I find nothing offensive with helping people, and I don't believe that I said or implied anything like that. But you can never tell how people will interpret what you say. Helping people does not offend me. What does offend me is this great American passion, the White Man's Guiltfest whose canon seems to be that the poor little nonwhite Afro or Latino or Asian... <fill in your favoite color or race or ethnicity> darlings are unable to help themselves, so we, the Great White Father, must reach out our hand to them, because if we didn't they'd be forever stuck in their depressed state. This attitude has produced a ubiquitous and pernicious effect: it reinforces the feeling on the part of many nonwhite Americans that they have been victimized by American society and therefore must be lifted up by "outreach" or, worse, compendated with handouts. It has produced in some nonwhites (and whites, for that matter) a downright hatred of America. I get excited over this issue because I like (I dare not say "love" for fear of offending the politically correct) America, and wish she may prosper. >> I don't know why but I am always saddened when I see a person turn to >> sarcasm. Ralph, have you ever heard the expression "holier than thou"? Jack Fu 47°38'N 122°08'W PS: "Over and out", as they used to say in radio shows. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> > Jack, Ralph and All: > > A few thoughts. Diaz and Fu discussing their views on minorities = you > left out the Gui Low (phonetic, but not romanization of "Grey Ghost Foreign > Devil). I am a White-Anglo-Saxon who was raised in North Central Texas in > the sticks (and to think about it I don't have to say I'm sorry, but I > can't help it either). There were no Afro Americans (what is politically > correct here?) in the town of 2,000 closest to us. There were plenty of > Mexican Americans and just as many illegal Mexicans. I married a JAP: let > me explain - born and raised on Okinawa with a Okinawan Mother and a > Russian Jewish Father - ergo JAP. I joined the Army and was rewarded with > a beautiful wife (twenty five years and counting) and daughter. We moved > to Hong Kong and travelling the Pacific Rim I discovered what it meant to > be a minority, one with money compared to many that I came into contact > with, but a minority just the same. I speak Cantonese fluently (starting > to loose it due to lack of use), but it helped me discover a whole new > world. A culture that was totally alien to me. One that was predominately > Buddhist and had annual Ghost Festivals (At first I thought they were Goat > Festivals, but soon found out differently when I explained to a fellow that > where I was from we raised Angora Goats. He said Angry Ghosts. I said > Yeah, Angora Goats. So much for communications, but I still don't > participate in Ghost Festivals). > > In the early development of the Western United States minorities played a > significant roll. The greatest Indian Fighters were Black Calvary who > later went to help Teddy Roosevelt win the Spanish American War - The > Buffalo Soldiers! There were great African American Cowboys as well. The > Chinese helped build the rail roads along with the Irish. > > Are we a racist culture? I believe so. I think many are so not out of > specific decisions, but out of ignorance and fear preferring to be around > those most like themselves. Less than other places in the world (Japan, > Australia, China), but racist none the less. I had dinner with a Chinese > business person in Singapore a few months ago and she asked what I thought > about China. I expressed my concerns over Hong Kong given China's action > in Tibet. She flatly stated that she was a card carrying Communist and > felt that I was wrong. I told her that she would learn now or in the after > life, but the Tibetans are no less human than she is. She seemed to be > able to accept my deep felt beliefs. I didn't attack her, but the > issues. Don't kill the sinner, but address the sin. > > In many instances I believe that it isn't by choice or design, but by > cultural differences and just plain lack of exposure to an endeavor that we > don't see more African American Kayakers or Chinese Poll Vaulters. There > have been great fisherman, whalers, explorers, climbers and yes kayakers > that are other than WHITE! The economics of change and plain old racist > actions that have restricted many minorities from pursuing interests that > were natural to their historical culture or beyond their sphere of exposure > are falling. As they said in "Crazy People": "The reason that Japanese > quality is better than American is because they are short and their eyes > are closer to their work." This and other hasty generalizations go a long > way towards justification of many bad "rationals" for some. > > We should encourage all to celebrate the opportunities that exist > today. It is now, more than ever a matter of choice. > I choose to participate in Sea Kayaking. I don't know of any of my > ancestors that pursued such interests. But we all have relative freedom of > choice. Relative to our inclinations and economic priorities. > > I choose to celebrate my uniqueness and the differences I discover in > others. Regardless of skin color! Thank God we aren't all alike! > > Paddle With Pride! > > Fred Well put. I just wish that one day that more people will see the world in this way. dave *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz writes: > Jack Fu wrote: > > > > I am one minority who wishes we American would give this minority > > or race subject a rest. > > I hope you don't mean to cut off discussion of a subject and are just > strongly voicing an opinion. As another minority, I would like to hear > the subject vented. I see no harm in doing so. > > > > There may be lots of reasons native Americans or black American or > > Latino Americans or Asian Americans (or whatever Americans) don't > > take to kayaking, but I'm not interested in these endless speculations. > > I am interested in trying to figure out the reasons why there are so few > minorities, especially African Americans in kayaking and other outdoor > activities. But, more importantly, in any outreach that can be done. I Wes' article hits the subject on the head - its about outdoor activity in general where its (meaning we have) noticed a paucity of ethnic minority involvement. I think this would be a very interesting study for a market research team from one or more of the outdoor magazines/equipment manufacturers. Its not just a matter of the numbers, but *why* they aren't involved. Of course a good study of the numbers would help a great deal. Anyone know of a study like this already done?. It would certainly be interesting to know. Anyone know someone who does this kind of market research? Anyone with contacts in the outdoor equipment field? You see, we could speculate endlessly about the possible reasons, but in the same way I'll never be able to authoritativly state womens issues from a womens pov (even being a card carrying Male Feminist), I couldn't speak from an ethnic minorities viewpoint. IOW: I'd like to hear what various minorities have to say for themselves. Glen Acord - Eugene, OR Member: WKCC, OKCC, UO/OP, OOPS Boats: Neckie Rip (WW) and dreaming of a Mariner II. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I usually stay as far out of this type of thread as I can, but I can't help responding to your incredibily eloquent and accurate remarks. While I am 100% with you on wht you've said, I couldn't possibly have said it as well or as fairly as you have. Thanks, Fred. Joan > I choose to celebrate my uniqueness and the differences I discover > in > others. Regardless of skin color! Thank God we aren't all alike! > > Paddle With Pride! > > Fred *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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