Bill Hansen said: <<Mike - Have you attended the Sweetwater Symposium? And if so. would you give me and others a rundown on what it's like? I know that Sweetwater offers BCU trainings, but I also know that they stop at 4 Star, saying that the weather down there isn't severe enough for 5 Star (and that's okay with me!). >> <snip> I heard it was a great training venue, but on a national basis, in term of cohesiveness, how does an all BCU development weekend help Americans when the dominant system will one day be the ACA. Forgive me my ignorance of US paddling politics. I do not know a lot about what goes on down there, and I _do_ know that the BCU stuff is top notch, but where will this fit in with those wanting to move through the instructor levels as the country moves toward a national program? BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_telus.net> <SNIP> how does an all BCU development weekend help Americans > when the dominant system will one day be the ACA. Forgive me my > ignorance of US paddling politics. I do not know a lot about what goes > on down there, and I _do_ know that the BCU stuff is top notch, but > where will this fit in with those wanting to move through the instructor > levels as the country moves toward a national program? As far as I know, neither the Democrats nor the Republicans, nor even Ralph or Pat have proposed national legislation espousing either BCU or ACA training programs. Why in the world would anyone want to develop a "dominant" or "national" system? We can ignore the wider connotations of the words "American" and "British," since neither program has anything to do with nationality, and both have everything to do with paddling anywhere on the globe. Both the ACA and BCU programs are (at least conceptually, and usually in practice) high quality, well thought-out systems for training paddling skills and safety. As long as that is true, there is room for both. We stand to benefit if both programs thrive. Institutions that become "dominant" tend to stagnate. Cheers (and Here Here) Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, why do you say that ACA will be the dominant system? True, there are currently more ACA venues than BCU in the US, but BCU is extending. I don't foresee one system or the other becoming dominant. Some people paddle feathered, some unfeathered; some people use euro paddles, some traditional; some people develop their skills under ACA tutelage, some under BCU. They can all be good paddlers or terrible paddlers., depending on what they bring to it and what they take from it. Joan how does an all BCU development weekend help > Americans > when the dominant system will one day be the ACA. Forgive me my > ignorance of US paddling politics. I do not know a lot about what > goes > on down there, and I _do_ know that the BCU stuff is top notch, but > where will this fit in with those wanting to move through the > instructor > levels as the country moves toward a national program? > > BC'in Ya > Doug Lloyd > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug: What about yourself? Your personal standards, limits and competence? All won through ACA or through a number of people, including "self learning" through miles of paddling and challenging oneself in various conditions and situations? As someone on this list reminded me in an earlier post, it's all paper. Politics aside, training is about competence more than anything; and second, being able to work with people. What about Gronseth's Kayak Academy? Gronseth is not associated with either ACA or BCU, but I have found him to be one of the most competent instructors I have come across. What he can do for his students in his 5 day course, I would challenge anyone or any agency to compare with. I was absolutely amazed what he did for me. I say choose the instructor who can take you to a greater level rather than relying on the agency. With training programs such as presented by Sweetwater, the BCU is sure to spread in influence. While not all BCU coaches are worth either the money or the time, and some you will discover you wish you had never heard of... but this is true in any agency, I can speak highly of the BCU courses I had with Sweetwater and at Nigel Dennis' ASSC in Wales. I suggest not wedding oneself to any particular agency but to seek out the best instructors you can find. I'd be delighted to learn from you Doug Lloyd; I've learned a good bit just from your postings here on Paddlewise. Perhaps we could paddle together someday before I get too old and decrepit to do so. Robert -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Doug Lloyd Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2000 5:09 PM To: PaddleWise_at_lists.intelenet.net; Bill Hansen Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] What about the ACA (was Florida Reunion) Bill Hansen said: <<Mike - Have you attended the Sweetwater Symposium? And if so. would you give me and others a rundown on what it's like? I know that Sweetwater offers BCU trainings, but I also know that they stop at 4 Star, saying that the weather down there isn't severe enough for 5 Star (and that's okay with me!). >> <snip> I heard it was a great training venue, but on a national basis, in term of cohesiveness, how does an all BCU development weekend help Americans when the dominant system will one day be the ACA. Forgive me my ignorance of US paddling politics. I do not know a lot about what goes on down there, and I _do_ know that the BCU stuff is top notch, but where will this fit in with those wanting to move through the instructor levels as the country moves toward a national program? BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/7/00 4:16:22 AM !!!First Boot!!!, bobvolin_at_bestweb.net writes: << Why in the world would anyone want to develop a "dominant" or "national" system? >> I would suspect that it would have to do with gov't funding and standardization. The American Red Cross was the primary source for canoe and kayak education (read funding recipient). Resources for the larger part have been shifted to the ACA. If I am not mistaken. Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Outfit3029_at_aol.com wrote: > > I would suspect that it would have to do with gov't funding and > standardization. The American Red Cross was the primary source for canoe and > kayak education (read funding recipient). Resources for the larger part have > been shifted to the ACA. If I am not mistaken. I believe that the Red Cross got totally out of the certification of canoeing back about 10 years ago. Certification is always an interesting subject that I tend to stay away from. It invariably leads to battles over who or what agency has the authority to certify and whether there should be any certification at all. Back in the late 1980s there were major battles over the issue of certification when the ACA first started moving toward an established curriculum and certification of paddlers and instructors. There were at least 5 camps that I counted. Although I know it seems pretty impossible to have 5 vehement positions on an issue there were with people attacking each other verbally or not speaking to each other. The camps were led by many of the household names of sea kayaking at the time, some of whom are still around. Certification can lead to abuses. One of the reasons that the BCU was able to establish such a strong beachhead in the States in the last half dozen years was because one ACA certifier ran a touring/instruction business and reportedly was ready to flunk his competitors. In one case he did. In another case, the competitor did not want to subject himself to such abuse and skipped the ACA route and instead embraced the BCU big time. But even before that the ACA itself had an internal battle. The person heading up the Sea Kayaking subcommittee constantly clashed with the person who headed up instruction, the latter feeling that there was no difference between whitewater and sea kayaking. The SK guy got caught in an embarrassing position and resigned in a huff. So SK instruction went to the Instruction guy who made a botch of it. SK instruction eventually came out from under him and got its act together. But then the abuses mentioned above set in in one geographic region. The problem with certification, be it by the BCU or ACA or anyone else, is that there are plenty of competent paddlers who just don't want to go through any of it but who can still paddle decently, self-rescue, and avoid getting themselves into predicaments in the first place, which is really what should be the bottom line in instruction. There is always the danger that a certifying body can get to a point that it does dominate. And its domination turns into a tyranny. It can get to the point that liveries will only rent to certified paddlers; group trips limited only to the certified; etc. What was behind the battles over certification a dozen years ago was precisely the point in the previous paragraph. Certification certainly has its value in setting up a curriculum and benchmarks against which an interested paddler can measure him/herself. By its nature, at least in the BCU certification, it lends itself to growth and reaching higher star levels. All of this is fine for the achievement minded kayaker. What I miss though is something that would help the masses of kayakers who are not oriented in that direction and that would help them learn a modicum of skills and savvy to keep them out of trouble. The real world of trouble in kayaking is in the masses of kayakers getting into recreational kayaks and entry level sit-on-tops. It would be great to see something real simple for them. Unless I am mistaken, someone showing up with an SOT or Keowee would perplex a BCU instructor. Or in a double folding kayak. There is really nothing aimed at them. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Really? Government funding for canoe and kayak education? I'll take your word for it. Still, even if the ACA is the recipient of government grants to promote water safety through training, that doesn't translate into governmentally mandated standardization. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/7/00 11:29:23 AM !!!First Boot!!!, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: <> I still hold current Red Cross Canoe and Kayak. Much of the focus these days is on the Small Craft Safety Course. This course covers general water safety issues and then becomes more craft specific with blocks on canoe, kayak, sail and rowing. << All of this is fine for the achievement minded kayaker. What I miss though is something that would help the masses of kayakers who are not oriented in that direction and that would help them learn a modicum of skills and savvy to keep them out of trouble. The real world of trouble in kayaking is in the masses of kayakers getting into recreational kayaks and entry level sit-on-tops. It would be great to see something real simple for them >> The Quickstart Your Kayak program was designed with this group in mind. It is a three to five hour intro course which covers safety issues, basic strokes, ethic, equipment, etc. I understand that five hours is not a very long period of time to teach all of the above and that is why the key focus of the course is INTRODUCTION. The intro course can sure help to accelerate learning and hopefully make participants safer paddlers. Some people will never take another lesson, others will continue taking classes for the duration of their kayaking life. <<And its domination turns into a tyranny. It can get to the point that liveries will only rent to certified paddlers; group trips limited only to the certified; etc.>> If the sport continues to grow at its current rate and gov't (county, state and federal) continues to go after their perceived piece of the outdoor recreational pie (licensing, registrations, certifications, user fees, etc.), I could see these certification situations gaining momentum. In my state (FL) I have attended meetings where talk of such things was common. (Scary isn't it? What scares me is that many of the proponents of certification are Beaurocrats and not necessarily paddlers.) Bruce McC WEO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Bob Volin wrote: > From: Doug Lloyd <dlloyd_at_telus.net> > <SNIP> how does an all BCU development weekend help Americans > > when the dominant system will one day be the ACA. Forgive me my > > ignorance of US paddling politics. I do not know a lot about what goes > > on down there, and I _do_ know that the BCU stuff is top notch, but > > where will this fit in with those wanting to move through the instructor > > levels as the country moves toward a national program? > > As far as I know, neither the Democrats nor the Republicans, nor even Ralph > or Pat have proposed national legislation espousing either BCU or ACA > training programs. Why in the world would anyone want to develop a > "dominant" or "national" system? There seems to be some misunderstanding with respect to both the context of my original question and the terminology. This isn't directed specifically at you Bob, so don't take this as a rebuttal, but more of a clarification. By "national" I simply meant that the organization claims to be "American" right in its title, and would imply a cross-state, widely recognized organization. By "dominant", I simply meant that the infrastructure is based solely in the USA, allowing it to build a rather large "pyramid" base as it grows with time and acceptance. It was not meant as qualitative, but as quantitative. > > > We can ignore the wider connotations of the words "American" and "British," > since neither program has anything to do with nationality, and both have > everything to do with paddling anywhere on the globe. Yes you can, for the most part. However, the BCU would appear to still have its roots with the UK, and as one climbs the BCU ladder abroad from the UK, it gets expensive to keep up with the yearly cost of membership. The coaching periodical is all British based, and part of the membership cost. One needs to fly, boat, or otherwise travel back to the UK in order to attain the higher coaching levels, and indeed the "examiner" status may indeed be rather costly and time consuming traveling back and fort to the UK to upgrade. This may even be true for Star 5 status. You also need a good assembly of top BCU coaches in a single space to gain certain award opportunities. I have it on good word that the BCU executive is not too interested in pushing the development of non-native coaching awards, but does encourage and want to help regions around the world develop their own schemes based on the BCU model, and indeed desires to foster as much real support and blessing as it can at the lower paddling and coaching award levels. I have been told by top BCU coaches that they are not as keen to foist BCU training and awards at the higher levels where a nationally recognized system is in place or is being developed. > > > Both the ACA and BCU programs are (at least conceptually, and usually in > practice) high quality, well thought-out systems for training paddling > skills and safety. As long as that is true, there is room for both. We > stand to benefit if both programs thrive. Institutions that become > "dominant" tend to stagnate. > Of course :-) > > Cheers (and Here Here) > Bob Joan then said: <<<Doug, why do you say that ACA will be the dominant system? True, there are currently more ACA venues than BCU in the US, but BCU is extending. I don't foresee one system or the other becoming dominant.>>> <snip> Yes, the BCU is extending itself, but as suggested above, how far can it go for those wanting to pursue a higher mandate, given the somewhat practical limitations. We had a number of highly skilled paddlers here in BC give up on the BCU, due to the limitations and expense of pursuing the system further, and so switched to the CRCA (Canadian Recreational Canoe Association), which is a "national" (well, they would like to be) organization somewhat akin to the ACA. The other big issue was insurance, and this was not available to instructors outside of the UK, even ones loyal to the BCU. With the CRCA, it is. I'm not sure about the ACA. So, as you can see, my original post was not about polemics or the approbation of one organization over the other. I was simply wondering why the ACA wasn't more desirable in the long run to you folks down there, though I suppose for most of the targeted levels of certification and skills development, the BCU is more than sufficient at this time (and if anything like I suspect, may have more of a seamanship component, which is what ultimately benefits the kayak mariner. NB I don't know how the two actually compare in terms of seamanship skills development, I just know the BCU tends to be a bit more rigorous than what is commonly believed as one ascends the ladder - I've been told). And finally, Robert said: <<<Doug: What about yourself? Your personal standards, limits and competence? All won through ACA or through a number of people, including "self learning" through miles of paddling and challenging oneself in various conditions and situations?>>> Initial training was on the river in a river kayak, including some canoe skill development. Derek H did some of the first North American training out here, on the west coast. It was light-years ahead of what everyone else was doing, and was "rudder free" and taught us dynamic boat handling skills, obviating the need for rudders. While it was only basic by BCU standards, it taught me the overwhelming desirability for new paddlers to engage in learning good rudimentary skills (the old house built on sand vs the house built on solid rock analogy). The rest was self learning, etc. Seamanship comes mostly with experience (though that is what was most widely taught at the beginning of the 1980's prior to the British invasion, and the Canadian retailers/instructors slowly came up to speed on the hard skills issue, but I do feel there needs to be much more emphasis on this aspect again, and that is why I dropped out of further involvement with the agencies teaching here in BC, as hard skills seemed to be the only emphasis). <<<As someone on this list reminded me in an earlier post, it's all paper. Politics aside, training is about competence more than anything; and second, being able to work with people. What about Gronseth's Kayak Academy? Gronseth is not associated with either ACA or BCU, but I have found him to be one of the most competent instructors I have come across. What he can do for his students in his 5 day course, I would challenge anyone or any agency to compare with. I was absolutely amazed what he did for me.>>> It all depends what you want. Some folks like a structured, germane scheme with national or international sanction. Others just want the training, and the best they can get. <<<I say choose the instructor who can take you to a greater level rather than relying on the agency.>>> And this is where we need choice, and it should also include affordable options for the economically challenged. I know I do my seminars for free, but I need my club to back me up for insurance. I also recognize, as has been mentioned on PW before, BCU and ACA schemes help weed out poor instructors. This is why I'm careful not to heap too much derision on paddling organizations. <<<With training programs such as presented by Sweetwater, the BCU is sure to spread in influence. While not all BCU coaches are worth either the money or the time, and some you will discover you wish you had never heard of... but this is true in any agency, I can speak highly of the BCU courses I had with Sweetwater and at Nigel Dennis' ASSC in Wales.>>> Yes, that is good. You also have, it would appear, the money to pour out the honey :-). I can only afford margarine, but there is no fee for time on the sea. <<<I suggest not wedding oneself to any particular agency but to seek out the best instructors you can find. I'd be delighted to learn from you Doug Lloyd; I've learned a good bit just from your postings here on Paddlewise. Perhaps we could paddle together someday before I get too old and decrepit to do so.>>> You mean before _I_ get too old and decrepit. Actually, I bet just about everyone on PW could teach each other a thing or two, as we all have different ways of doing things, different camping practices, different equipment preferences, different insights into the behavior and predictability of the ocean environment, etc., etc. I once was on a trip with some rookies who obviously had been exposed to a bit of teaching from some unknown sources to me -- either at symposiums or paddlefeasts, or perhaps on a short paddle with someone who showed them a few new tricks. Anyway, we were engaging in one of my favorite activities, which is comparing how each boat behaved in a given wind and wave condition. For some reason, each of us kept veering towards each other, and we would all pile into each other. Very comical, and I'm sure you know what I mean. I was amazed at the three different approaches each person showed, with regard to their use of paddle to regain course and spacing -- once they all realized to shut up and stop banging into each other. Two of the maneuvers I had never seen before, and were amazingly effective. Now wouldn't that be neat, a mass PW paddle where we all learned from each other, on the water, rather than from in front of these life depleting computers that seem to rule our lives. But, PW is still the approachable reality, and so I can't unsubscribe, even if it is the bland leading the bland, sometimes. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (whose wife is the one who wants me off PW, but I've agreed to play with the kids and eat supper first, before opening PW after work immediately :-) ) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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