Matt Broze said: Doug wrote: >>>I know enough respected, big name paddlers who share a similar view about the need for weight in open water conditions. <<< <Who, besides Derek Hutchinson?> Matt, its Thanksgiving here in Canada today, so stuffed on turkey as such, the subject of weight seems appropriate. :-) As far as naming names, sorry, you can do your _own_ back-channeling, phone calls, discussions at symposiums and interviews, etc., lest I be accused of reading more into what they said to me -- out of context (something you have accused me of in the past). Hutchy is safe to quote however on this one, eh? <While I agree that weight can help in extreme conditions it doesn't have to be the weight of the kayak.> Yes, that is so true. Never said it wasn't. One can add gear, Genuine Canadian Ballast Rocks (tm), or whatever. I have my own Genuine BC Pea Gravel, kept in an old gear bag, that straps down via buckles just behind the seat in the oval hatch (buckle "D" rings are glassed to the inside hull, preventing movement of the bag). And heck, Scott recently "trashed" us guys on Paddlewise who carry tons of rescue gear. Doesn't Scott realize that's just _more_ ballast for guys like me :-) And you are correct, weight can help in extreme conditions. I once loaded my Norkapp with 300 + lbs of rock. It was the only way to get out into the 50 to 70 knot wind. But as much as I go on and on about extreme paddling, it is not my main preoccupation. But when I do head out to big water, having weight really does help. That was the point of my post, weight helps, but it wasn't meant as a promotion of heavy kayaks, so much as an indication that all my mod's have left me with a heavy kayak -- and that happens to work out well for me for extreme conditions as my boat is already heavy. I should have kept it back-channel with Kes, but his question was posited on the open forum, hence my reply on PW. I know you are attempting to combat disinformation in the event someone misinterprets what I said. That is fine and commendable and I'm sorry to take you away from your busy schedule. <I think this is often used as a justification for British heavies. Below is some of what I wrote to Derek concerning the manuscript I had reviewed for "Derek Hutchinson's Guide to Sea Kayaking" back in (I believe) 1983 or 1984. I still believe much of the design information in that book was in reality mostly advertising for Derek's kayaks in America.> Yeap. But that is his prerogative, just as it is yours to promote what you believe in any literature you produce. And I must say, his desire for heavier boats is the norm in his jurisdiction, where he writes from. Also, I noticed with the McNulty "Huntsman" that I am thinking of buying, that it is a nice average weight but, it sure needs some reinforcing. The back deck cockpit rim sags when I put my fat bum on it, and the hull is too thin and flexible for my liking -- can't even tie it down properly to the roof racks. Yes, I will be adding weight to it if I buy it. Funnily enough, this is one of the kayaks that McNulty made subsequent to the big fallout with Hutchy. The boats went downhill when he lost direct control over production standards. I believe this happened a bit with the P&H boats too. A friend's 'Cirrus' split a seam and cracked the hull after hitting a sea wall during some storm paddling. I didn't think he hit that hard. But like you imply, not everyone is in to ramming sea walls :-) <snip> your quote from your letter to Derek from two decades ago That was a good letter you sent him at the time Matt. I remember it, and I remember Derek's response at the time: "Who in the hell does this Matt guy think he is, to tell me how to write my books." Ahh, for the old days, Matt! Hey Matt, what's with all the old quotes of yours being pulled out of your personal archive files recently? Thought engineer types were always improving on previous efforts, or are they heavy weight examples of well-engineered statements?. I'll go back to sleep now -- there must be a drug or something in the turkey I ate. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who's heavy sea kayak can ram through even big strainers :-) ) < *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug: Are you sure that it didn't change the paddling characteristics to more of a British Submarine. Happy Thanksgiving BTW Fred At 03:42 PM 10/9/2000 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: >And you are correct, weight can help in extreme conditions. I once >loaded my Norkapp with 300 + lbs of rock. It was the only way to get out >into the 50 to 70 knot wind. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
We had the 18th annual Great Port Townsend Bay Kinetic Skulpure Race (and parade and dance) this weekend. It was my second time attending and it was really fun to see these contraptions that can do land, sea and mud-with-hay. I made a narrated javascript slide show at http://www.viewit.com/KineticRace/ if anyone cares to check it out! Andree *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug wrote: >>>That was a good letter you sent him at the time Matt. I remember it, and I remember Derek's response at the time: "Who in the hell does this Matt guy think he is, to tell me how to write my books." Ahh, for the old days, Matt! <<< Funny he should have said that. In 1982 I asked Frank Goodman (Nordkapp designer for those who don't know) who I'd just met at the first sea kayaking symposium ever in Maine, "What's with this Derek Hutchinson"? I won't repeat what he said here but I still remember it. I have a lot of respect for Frank. Actually I wrote Derek an 8 page letter with comments on his manuscript to try to help him write a kayaking book I could wholeheartedly endorse. The only thing he changed as a result (that I could tell) was that he removed his recommendation to store food in the kayak when in bear country to protect the food. I told Derek the bear would still get the food and destroy your mode of transportation in the process. It was fine with me if he wanted to ignore my advice but what really ticked me off was that he put my name in the acknowledgements as though I'd helped him and endorsed the book. Then he had the gall to tell me he wanted to make more changes based on my suggestions but the publisher wouldn't let him. The publisher told me he could have made any changes he wanted to. Doug again: >>>>Hey Matt, what's with all the old quotes of yours being pulled out of your personal archive files recently? Thought engineer types were always improving on previous efforts, or are they heavy weight examples of well-engineered statements?. <<<< Just trying to be efficient. Why spend a lot of time on something I had already spent a lot of time on previously that is precisely what I wanted to say. Actually, I was into science in high school and college but due to a language requirement in science I did try Engineering for a few quarters. Didn't like it at all (at least as taught in the U of W engineering school). Went back to science but then dropped out of college altogether after 3 years to study what I was interested in (at precisely the time I was interested in it) rather than chase the grade and degree carrots. Matt Broze (college dropout) http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > > Doug wrote: > >>>That was a good letter you sent him at the time Matt. I remember it, and > I remember Derek's response at the time: "Who in the hell does this Matt > guy think he is, to tell me how to write my books." Ahh, for the old > days, Matt! <<< > > Funny he should have said that. In 1982 I asked Frank Goodman (Nordkapp > designer for those who don't know) who I'd just met at the first sea > kayaking symposium ever in Maine, "What's with this Derek Hutchinson"? I > won't repeat what he said here but I still remember it. I have a lot of > respect for Frank. > > Actually I wrote Derek an 8 page letter with comments on his manuscript to > try to help him write a kayaking book I could wholeheartedly endorse. SNIPPED I sometimes think that the wrong people are writing the sea kayaking books, or better stated (so that I don't get into trouble) I sometimes wish certain people would write their take on sea kayaking. My candidates follow. This is in no particular order and does go into a bit of why I feel they could write something of enormous value. Also, BTW, some of these fellows don't see eye to eye on many of the issues and aspects of sea kayaking and that is why their books would be great. 1. Matt Broze. His webpage is core stuff on sea kayaking with a very practical stance and a healthy amount of debunking the many old wives tales that permeate much of the "wisdom" tossed around in sea kayaking circles. Matt would not dance around a subject nor be mealymouth in writing about it. The book would, of course, have to be written on fireproof paper for the scorching things he would have to say. 2. John Winters. Much of the same comments about the value of a Matt book would apply also to one of John's. It's that iconaclastic they both share (although often in opposite directions :-)) that would make John a worthwhile-read author on a book about sea kayaking. John takes conventional wisdom and turns it on its head. So much of what is written about sea kayaking is baseless and John knows this and strives to debunk it. His book may even have a foreword from Dr. Inverbon. Or maybe the good doctor would write the book and John the foreword. 3. Ken Fink. To say that Ken is a contraversial figure would be an understatement. But he is so with great charm. I have been on the butt end of his statements but he posits these with such aplomb and devilishness and with great articulation that I can't get angry about it. Derek thinks he has such charm but his wears thin. Ken's never does; you always wonder "what is Ken going to come up with next?" Ken knows his stuff in sea kayaking as one of the early US importers of kayaks and a founder of the sea kayak symposium concept. Trailside has several video shows with him as host (or guest, depending on how you look at it); get one and you will appreciate what a good commentator he would be in a sea kayaking book. 4. Bill Lozano. I know I am showing my provincialism in listing his name and there are no doubt equally capable people in other regions. Bill runs (with his wife, Janice) Atlantic Kayak Tours in New York State. He has been in business for some 15 years starting with, of all things, folding kayaks (Kleppers) and now pretty much deep into the British world and a top (if not "the" top) US grown BCU coach. Bill has savvy and brilliant observation of what boats and paddlers are doing as they meet the elements of the sea. If he were to write a book, it would be a knock-out and a must-read. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:09 AM 10/11/00 -0700, ralph diaz wrote: >I sometimes think that the wrong people are writing the sea kayaking >books, or better stated (so that I don't get into trouble) I sometimes >wish certain people would write their take on sea kayaking. > >My candidates follow. This is in no particular order and does go into a >bit of why I feel they could write something of enormous value. Also, >BTW, some of these fellows don't see eye to eye on many of the issues >and aspects of sea kayaking and that is why their books would be great. (snip) I like your list -- but would like to see Laurie Ford's name added to it, just for the pure joy of iconoclasm and alternate, if strongly held, viewpoints. Would be interesting reading. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wes says: "I like your list -- but would like to see Laurie Ford's name added to it,just for the pure joy of iconoclasm and alternate, if strongly held,viewpoints. Would be interesting reading." Funny you should bring Laurie in at this point, his website records that Derek Hutchinson's work is still the best all round handbook he has read. (Couldn't resist that). I support the idea that Matt Broze would be a great author of a general sea kayaking book, just going by the manuals on the Mariner website, and "Deep Trouble". That book would probably contain material that some would disagree with. But then, you don't read a bible literally or uncritically. I'm personally grateful that Derek Hutchinson never mentioned a prismatic coefficient or Froude. Regards, Peter Treby 37°42'S 145°08'E *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter wrote: >I'm personally grateful that Derek Hutchinson never mentioned a prismatic coefficient or Froude. I agree. Had Derek mentioned them he would have probably screwed it up and made his chapters on boat design even more ludicrous. Many writers about canoes and kayaks exhibit a callous disregard for research and prefer their opinions over reality. One writer (very popular) sent me a chapter from a book on solo canoeing and asked me to edit its content for accuracy. I did so and he wrote back how much he appreciated the help. He sent me an autographed copy that I read and promptly took down to the used book store where I traded it for another work of fiction but by a better writer. He did not correct any of even the most egregious errors. Later I asked him why and he told me - brace yourself for this - people would not understand or believe the truth so it is better to tell them what they want to hear or already believe. As Doug Gavin, a line supervisor at Morgan Yacht Corporation used to say, "Ignorance and superstition will always triumph over the scientific method." Doug was wise beyond his years. Cheers, John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Thanks for the kind words Ralph. Having written two "best sellers" in small fields (Freestyle Skiing and Deep Trouble) I can tell you that writing a book for a small audience is an exercise in how to remain impoverished. As much as I might like to have my say in a book, it would be very costly for me to do so. I certainly don't write for the money, but the wages per hour are so low that I'd just as soon give the information out for free on our website and avoid the book publishing hassles. This is what Cam and I have done with the manuals we had originally written for our customers benefit (as soon as we had a website and therefore a way to distribute them cheaply to a wide audience). Okay PW's guessing game time. Let's hear some guesses as to how much money I have earned in royalties and advances (before taxes) for "Deep Trouble" over the last 3 years since it came out (Note: I get about 60% of the royalties on that book). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote: > ... > Okay PW's guessing game time. Let's hear some guesses as to how > much money I have earned in royalties and advances (before taxes) > for "Deep Trouble" over the last 3 years since it came out (Note: I > get about 60% of the royalties on that book). Let's see. Amazon.com sales rank of 17,894, factor in sales from other sites and store sales, add in the advance, do some math... $863 !!! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Okay PW's guessing game time. Let's hear some guesses as to how much money I > have earned in royalties and advances (before taxes) for "Deep Trouble" over > the last 3 years since it came out (Note: I get about 60% of the royalties > on that book). Well, that's an interesting query, particularly as myself and another member are contemplating a book relating to law and the shoreline, to be targeted to boaters. Matt, the book is awesome, as I'm sure you've often been told. It changed my understanding of the sport (although I still have my doubts about that shark story <g>). As for royalties. . . I'll take a wild stab in the dark -- $5 grand? Just a wild guess based on an assumption that you probably get about $1 per book. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
735769 wrote: > > He did not correct any of even the most egregious errors. Later I asked him > why and he told me - brace yourself for this - people would not understand > or believe the truth so it is better to tell them what they want to hear or > already believe. Reminds me of the story of a friend of mine from my Latin American business jaunt days who boarded a local airline at midnight in Panama on a flight to Peru. When they got to Lima on an early Sunday morning, the passengers who had boarded in Panama waited for their luggage while others who had boarded further north in Miami were picking up theirs. Finally an airline representative came up to this small group and started asking for them all to describe their bags. It seems the airline had arbitrarily decided to leave the baggage in Panama because the flight was overloaded. My friend, indignantly asked "Why didn't you tell us this back in Panama?" The airline rep said "The passengers, they would not understand." ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Many writers about canoes and kayaks exhibit a callous disregard for > research and prefer their opinions over reality. This is an interesting discussion. FWIW, which I don't say is much, there is a parallel discussion in sailing circles. For example, Nat Herreshoff is regarded by many as the greatest yacht designer (I don't know if they used the word "naval architect" back then, or if he would have disliked the term....) in American history. His boats are beautiful, and frequently quite fast (when he designed them to be). Yet "science" was not really the basis for his work; it was more "art." And intuition, or something. These days, naval architects debate the scientific vs the ... whatever the other thing is... constantly. I guess the big racers are pretty much dictated by advanced science, engineering, etc. But to my eye many of them are downright ugly. And as we've seen, well, they may have a tendency to break in half (tch tch tch). To me, kayaks and canoes have a great beauty to them, and the "artistic" is a major component of a good design. I don't personally like Derek H's designs -- I think they look silly. But I do like other designs that I suspect are at least as devoid of scientific calculation. Boats, after all, are things of beauty, and fortunately there are many different notions of what is beautiful. Mark *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt, I'll "cc" the list just in case anyone was following this: Doug wrote: >>>That was a good letter you sent him at the time Matt. I remember it, and I remember Derek's response at the time: "Who in the hell does this Matt guy think he is, to tell me how to write my books." Ahh, for the old days, Matt! <<< Matt then said: <Funny he should have said that. In 1982 I asked Frank Goodman (Nordkapp designer for those who don't know) who I'd just met at the first sea kayaking symposium ever in Maine, "What's with this Derek Hutchinson"? I won't repeat what he said here but I still remember it. I have a lot of respect for Frank.> Frank impressed me immediately back in 82/83 when he came out here for the first west coast sea kayak symposium (in Victoria). Doreen, his wife, was a real keener too. His talk on design was right on the mark as far as I was concerned. His comment that every sea kayak ever made or would ever be made will _always_ be a compromise of various design considerations. He kept his ego in check, relegated the BCU to a useful hierarchy -- but an organization run by humans, and as such, flawed at times -- and had to be pressed hard before he would run anybody down (maybe he was more open with you). He showed us how important -- or at least how integral -- the actual curves and contours of the kayak's shape were in order to render greater strength and overall structural rigidity in his designs (personified in the Norkapp, of course). He has some fine kayaks, like the 'Anas' and the Pintail, not to mention a double sea kayak that is in my opinion, one of the finest in the world. Matt, you mention in another post how inferior the navigational information is that Derek H writes in his books (as evidenced by Burch "highlighting" certain text). Derek is one of the highest rated BCU coaches and coach instructors in the UK (at least he was at the time). So, something is wrong with this picture. Either Burch, et al were just being too picky or, ??????? I know they do a lot of navigational work at the top BCU levels. Could this be a sad commentary on this British regime? Or has it been "Derek inertia" (rather than boat inertia) that has propelled him to stardom despite the gravity of reality and the inability of those in charge to keep a rein on the guy? I actually like Derek, and have learned a lot from him over the years. I do have issues with him. Last time I spoke to you about him, you wondered why I had it in for derek. Well, I see you are closer to the issues than I thought. well, I've never actually read Derek's stuff all the way through. I'll have to check it out. <snip> By the way, I'm personally not willing to commit myself to say the average North American kayak is under built. I'm pretty much in the middle of the road on this issue. I just know that when I am out on the more exposed coast, or even in protected waters at a rescue clinic, it appears to me many of the other kayaks I see are not up to the conditions or program. This is just an observation. I also know that a lot of the Brit boats are overbuilt: In order to get a stiff rear deck or a non-oilcanning hull, the manufacturing process in the UK seems to opt for adding more layers and resin to the whole boat, rather than strategic placement and other stiffing methods as employed here in North America. Both situations are rather unfortunate. Thank you, however, for your commitment to the sport and good sea kayak building that is individual customer sensitive and oriented. Hey Matt, why did the Canadian cross the road? To get to the middle! BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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