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From: <timbre_at_best.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 09:42:17 -0800
scott,

read your post re a trip with dwayne strosaker and the newbies.

my overwhelming reaction to your post is, why paddle with the 
"excruciatingly slow" newbies if you hate it (it being their low skill 
level) so much?

i am (like) one of those people....everyone has to start somewhere.  when i 
get good at kayaking, though, maybe in a year or so, i hope i don't have 
contempt for people who go slow, who don't have much of a clue, or who have 
few skills.  i hope i will encourage them and respect their willingness to 
learn and their courage to look like an idiot until they get it right.

so don't come paddle up here with me, ok?  you'll hate it!

kcd

ps   if i found an instructor or someone else taking bets over whether or 
not i'd be one of the ones to capsize (in surf or not) i'd get my money 
back, and have some sever words for the "instructor"  if it were a paid 
guided paddle.  sorry, i teach professionally, and  to me, that's  (don't 
want to offend you here but i can't help it) bullshit.   i hate belittling 
almost as much as you seem to hate newbies!


kathleen comalli dillon~friend, mom, wife, musician, violinist, writer, 
ailurophile extraordinaire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We can do no great things; we can only do small things with great 
love."-Mother Teresa~~"I find a lot of people like chubby 67-year-old 
girls."-Beverly Sills~~"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat 
are not the better for it."-Abraham Lincoln~~"Prepare to be 
assimila-----OOOOOoooooo, jelly donuts!"-Homer of Borg~~"I am Boris of 
Borg. Moose and Squirrel are irrelevant."~~


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From: Kevin Whilden <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org>
subject: [Paddlewise] Does everyone have to be a perfect instructor? (was: are beginners allowed?)
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 12:39:45 -0800
At 09:42 AM 11/28/00 -0800, timbre_at_best.com wrote:
 >scott,
 >
 >read your post re a trip with dwayne strosaker and the newbies.
 >
 >my overwhelming reaction to your post is, why paddle with the 
"excruciatingly slow" newbies if you hate it (it being >their low skill 
level) so much?

I don't think your criticism is entirely justified, since Scott was not the 
organizer of the trip and was just there to help out. Nobody paid any money 
to go on that trip, and it wouldn't have worked at all if it wasn't for 
experienced paddlers like Scott to help Duane marshall the forces of chaos 
created by 20 so-called intermediate kayakers. As someone who has led 
beginning whitewater trips with 20+ kayakers, I can tell you that the 
magnitude of these forces of chaos are *quite* significant. It sounded like 
a very mellow trip, and I have no doubt that had there been a deep water 
capsize or other emergency that Scott would have been there to perform the 
rescue. Beginners flipping in 1 foot surf on a sandy beach is anything but 
an emergency 99% of the time, even if the beginner doesn't realize that 
yet. Hopefully the experienced paddlers had an eye out for that 1% problem, 
and it sounded like they did. If this is so, I also see no reason why the 
situation shouldn't be taken with amusement, since it was indeed entirely 
benign. People shouldn't be so serious that they can't laugh at their own 
mishaps, especially when learning something like kayaking!

I write this as someone who occasionally gets paid real money to teach 
kayaking, and I know when it is appropriate for an instructor to 
micromanage a beginner's learning experience. Scott's position certainly 
did not require that level of consideration, though it certainly would have 
been nice if he had wanted to do so. There have been plenty of 
instructional trips that I have helped out on, but have not been obligated 
to do serious instruction. On these trips I am there to help with 
emergencies and give occasional instruction, but the main purpose is to 
selfishly have fun paddling. There's nothing wrong with that if it is 
appropriate for the circumstances.

One other comment is that it was good thing Scott was paddling with the 
slowpokes if he was learning how to use a greenland paddle for the first 
time. It took me several long trips and a lot of roll practice to get truly 
comfortable and efficient with mine. Now I use it for everything sea kayak 
related and I shudder at the thought of paddling with a yucky piece of 
fiberglass in my hands. Greenland paddles are a wonder of efficient design, 
and learning how to use all of the different paddling techniques properly 
can make even the slowest and most boring flatwater paddling trip 
enjoyable. *grin*

kevin


Kevin Whilden
Your Planet Earth
http://www.yourplanetearth.org
(206) 788-0281 (ph)
(206) 788-0284 (f)


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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:02:52 EST
In a message dated 00-11-28 14:41:39 EST, timbre_at_best.com writes:

<< kathleen comalli dillon~friend, mom, wife, musician, violinist, writer, 
 ailurophile extraordinaire
 
OK, I'll bite...ailurophile is not in my American Heritage (I think someone 
made a reference to this, but I must have deleted it).

definition, please

sandy kramer

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From: Melissa Reese <melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:07:15 -0800
Sandy wrote:

>>OK, I'll bite...ailurophile is not in my American Heritage (I think 
someone made a reference to this, but I must have deleted it).

definition, please

sandy kramer<<


It means she loves cats.

Melissa



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From: Gabriel L Romeu <romeug_at_erols.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 09:14:11 -0500
Anybody want to share some recipes for the upcoming holidays?

Melissa Reese wrote:
> 
> Sandy wrote:
> 
> >>OK, I'll bite...ailurophile is not in my American Heritage (I think
> someone made a reference to this, but I must have deleted it).
> 
> definition, please
> 
> sandy kramer<<
> 
> It means she loves cats.
> 
> Melissa

-- 
:                         :
Gabriel L Romeu                                                      :
http://studiofurniture.com  furniture from the workshop               :
http://members.xoom.com/gabrielR  life as a tourist, daily
journal         :
http://studiofurniture.com/paint  paintings, photographs, etchings,
objects

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From: <dldecker_at_se.mediaone.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:38:46 -0500
At 09:14 AM 11/29/00 -0500, Gabriel L Romeu wrote:
>Anybody want to share some recipes for the upcoming holidays?

 well here it goes, a bottle of rum, and heck you don't even need glasses o
drink out of if your with friends

Dana

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From: <Strosaker_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 01:08:00 EST
In a message dated 11/28/00 11:33:03 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
timbre_at_best.com writes:

<< ps   if i found an instructor or someone else taking bets over whether or 
 not i'd be one of the ones to capsize (in surf or not) i'd get my money 
 back, and have some sever words for the "instructor"  if it were a paid 
 guided paddle.  sorry, i teach professionally, and  to me, that's  (don't 
 want to offend you here but i can't help it) bullshit.   i hate belittling 
 almost as much as you seem to hate newbies!
  >>

Kathleen,

In So Cal we take swimming in the surf with a sense of humor.

As for the group being slow, everyone was supposed to be at least an 
intermediate paddler.

Duane

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From: <HenryHast_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 18:56:49 EST
In a message dated 11/28/00 2:48:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, timbre_at_best.com 
writes:

<< scott,
 
 read your post re a trip with dwayne strosaker and the newbies.
 
 my overwhelming reaction to your post is, why paddle with the 
 "excruciatingly slow" newbies if you hate it (it being their low skill 
 level) so much?
 
 i am (like) one of those people....everyone has to start somewhere.  when i 
 get good at kayaking, though, maybe in a year or so, i hope i don't have 
 contempt for people who go slow, who don't have much of a clue, or who have 
 few skills.  i hope i will encourage them and respect their willingness to 
 learn and their courage to look like an idiot until they get it right.
 
 so don't come paddle up here with me, ok?  you'll hate it!
 
 kcd
 
 ps   if i found an instructor or someone else taking bets over whether or 
 not i'd be one of the ones to capsize (in surf or not) i'd get my money 
 back, and have some sever words for the "instructor"  if it were a paid 
 guided paddle.  sorry, i teach professionally, and  to me, that's  (don't 
 want to offend you here but i can't help it) bullshit.   i hate belittling 
 almost as much as you seem to hate newbies!
 
 
 kathleen comalli dillon~friend, mom, wife, musician, violinist, writer, 
 ailurophile extraordinaire

Kathleen, 

If I recall correctly, Scott's point was, at least in part, that this was not 
a trip for newbies, but for intermediate kayakers.  I certainly agree with 
him that newbies should not go on intermediate trips.  This has nothing to do 
with showing disrespect to newbies.

Hank

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From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:31:11 EST
<< read your post re a trip with dwayne strosaker and the newbies.
 
 my overwhelming reaction to your post is, why paddle with the 
 "excruciatingly slow" newbies if you hate it (it being their low skill 
 level) so much?>>

   When Duane posted the invite to this trip he said,"this is a social paddle 
for sea kayakers with intermediate skills." I ask you, Kathleen, just what 
does that mean to you? To me, that means basic skills and an ability to keep 
up with the group. The slower paddlers have a responsibility to paddle a 
little harder. Likewise, the faster paddlers have a responsibility to paddle 
a little more slowly, or, do like I did, paddle in circles, or zig zag, or 
whatever, but stay with the group. 
 
 <>

   I don't believe I expressed contempt for the beginning paddlers. In fact, 
I thought I made it clear that I made of point of helping the group launch 
safely from the beach. I also tried very hard to help keep an eye on the 
group, as it being such a large one I figured Duane and Jim could use the 
help. When the people split off to explore the cove I went with them out of a 
sense of responsibility. Duane needed to stay with the main group, so I 
looked after the splinter group. 
   You need to understand that I am used to being in charge, and I really was 
trying very hard not to be on this trip. As Kevin pointed out, I was not the 
organizer, and I was not being paid to be there. I tried to help out as much 
as possible without seeming to be taking over. Even though I could have 
easily stepped up and help run things, Duane did not ask me to do so, and I 
did not want to appear to be presenting a "subtle but pervasive message of 
smug superiority" as Mr. Paxton so eloquently put it. Most of these people on 
this trip did not know me. I have found that more times then not, people 
resent having a stranger step up and try to help. I generally try to downplay 
the fact that I work as a kayaking instructor. I did not introduce myself as 
such, and I doubt that very many of these folks knew it. If they had, then 
they probably would've been more receptive to my help. But like I said, I 
wasn't there to be an instructor. I was just another paddler on the trip. 
 
 <<ps   if i found an instructor or someone else taking bets over whether or 
 not i'd be one of the ones to capsize (in surf or not) i'd get my money 
 back, and have some sever words for the "instructor"  if it were a paid 
 guided paddle.  sorry, i teach professionally, and  to me, that's  (don't 
 want to offend you here but i can't help it) bullshit.   i hate belittling 
 almost as much as you seem to hate newbies! >>

   I really don't see that I was "belittling" anybody. Yes, I enjoyed some 
sense of humor in watching some of these folks capsize while trying to land. 
I have two teenage daughters, and I learned a long time ago that you can't 
hold their hands forever. At least not if you ever expect them to grow up and 
learn. While it would have been a nice jester on my part to catch each boat 
as it landed, I probably would've received as much resentment as gratitude 
form the various paddlers. 

Scott
So.Cal.

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From: <timbre_at_best.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 21:54:02 -0800
to scott and the list,

first of all, this is my last public post on this.   i don't want to start 
a tempest in a teapot or take up too much bandwidth.

scott wrote,

 >When Duane posted the invite to this trip he said,"this is a social paddle
for sea kayakers with intermediate skills." I ask you, Kathleen, just what
does that mean to you? >

i need to clarify.  my use of  the word "newbies" was  inaccurate.  i was 
distressed by your apparent frustration over paddlers less skilled than 
yourself; i got that it was advertised as an "intermediate" paddle, and 
used "newbies" to mean "less skilled" .  i should have been more clear and 
used  the latter nomenclature.

i am sure it was good that you were there.  i haven't heard a description 
before now of paddles with such a big group of people.  however, i went on 
a guided paddle  with 17 people, all beginners, and saw the potential for 
chaos.   there were 3 instructors, though, and one advanced/experienced 
paddler who assisted.  i am sure all were grateful for your assistance in 
launching, and though perhaps they didn't know it, would have benefited 
from your assistance in real trouble.

what i was really getting at in my post was, who of us is so great that we 
can  have no empathy for someone who also loves the sport (or field, or 
art) that we love? no one, i believe.   didn't you start somewhere, didn't 
we all?  i am a concert violinist....and i empathize with the beginners 
who, quite frankly, sound like crap.  on my bad days, i sound like crap to 
myself, though no one would percieve that but me or another concert 
violinist!!  but i know what they are going thru when they do things wrong 
or mess up.

and i guess i was just thinking of how much guts it takes me to go out 
there, not caring what others think, and what long months and even years of 
learning and experience i have ahead of me before i will even reach 
"intermediate".  and also i was thinking of how hurt my feelings would be 
if i knew others were making fun of me.

i have teenagers too and i take your point about not babying people. it's a 
skill to find the balance between spoon-feeding them and leaving them so 
alone they get discouraged.

anyway, as wes said the other day, peace, man,


kcd





kathleen comalli dillon~friend, mom, wife, musician, violinist, writer, 
ailurophile extraordinaire
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We can do no great things; we can only do small things with great 
love."-Mother Teresa~~"I find a lot of people like chubby 67-year-old 
girls."-Beverly Sills~~"I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat 
are not the better for it."-Abraham Lincoln~~"Prepare to be 
assimila-----OOOOOoooooo, jelly donuts!"-Homer of Borg~~"I am Boris of 
Borg. Moose and Squirrel are irrelevant."~~


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From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 11:01:18 -0800
Generally, if you plan a trip for paddlers of x skill level and a number
show up possessing x minus y skill level, it is best to revamp the
trip's level to their level.  This is barring some very definite goal or
destination in mind that is the purpose of the trip.

For example, if the purpose of the trip is to paddle to some specific
destination and that is the advertised/announced purpose of the trip and
you need x skill or endurance to reach it, then you may want to tell the
x minus y paddlers that this isn't a trip for them.  Maybe some one
might want to set up an impromptu trip for them of a shorter distance or
that is less demanding.  But if the purpose is just to go have some fun
paddling here or there, the whole group could just scale down the
parameters of the loosely structured trip.

Of course, that isn't always apparent.  Paddlers can show up who you
don't know and they may be up to the trip or not up to the trip.  It is
something you will find out soon enough within the first half mile or
so. I think that, generally, it is wise to be ready to re-assess the
trip at about that time, i.e. at the half-mile level or so.

As for the thought of having lesser skilled/stamina paddlers strive to
keep up, that shouldn't be something to press at the beginning of a
trip. If you do, you will tire them out or put them in over their
heads.  I find that the time to press people is on the way back if you
need to beat a turn of currents or darkness, etc.  But if you don't tax
their stamina and skills on the way out, they usually will have
something in them to reach for to get them back.

BTW, this is all something I keep learning about.  I think I basically
made a mistake on a recent trip that did tax the stamina of some of the
paddlers albeit everyone was up to the skill level required.  I probably
should have rethought it through earlier.  Just because I know better
doesn't mean I always listen to that voice in me.

ralph diaz
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From: <WaterCrosser_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 13:13:54 EST
Scott wrote:
>>Yes, I enjoyed some sense of humor in watching some of these folks capsize while trying to land. <<

I believe a lot more people enjoy this too, but are afraid to admit it.  If this WEREN'T true, I believe Wide World of Sports would never have played the "Agony of defeat" scene of the skier eatting it on a jump for almost a decade every weekend.  Does everyone also know that guy wasn't badly hurt, it just LOOKED cool.

jim gabriel

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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 12:05:49 -0800
ralph diaz wrote:
> 
> Generally, if you plan a trip for paddlers of x skill level and a number
> show up possessing x minus y skill level, it is best to revamp the
> trip's level to their level.  This is barring some very definite goal or
> destination in mind that is the purpose of the trip.
> 
> For example, if the purpose of the trip is to paddle to some specific
> destination and that is the advertised/announced purpose of the trip and
> you need x skill or endurance to reach it, then you may want to tell the
> x minus y paddlers that this isn't a trip for them.  Maybe some one
> might want to set up an impromptu trip for them of a shorter distance or
> that is less demanding.  But if the purpose is just to go have some fun
> paddling here or there, the whole group could just scale down the
> parameters of the loosely structured trip.
> 
> Of course, that isn't always apparent.  Paddlers can show up who you
> don't know and they may be up to the trip or not up to the trip.  It is
> something you will find out soon enough within the first half mile or
> so. I think that, generally, it is wise to be ready to re-assess the
> trip at about that time, i.e. at the half-mile level or so.

Ralph has dealt well with the realities of "all comers" paddles.  The traps of
offering such group experiences can be very insidious.  In other sports (such
as rock climbing) the participant generally has to have enough skill to **get**
into trouble.  Sea kayaking is not like that.  That's the tough part.  It is
impossible to "quit" a dangerous crossing in the middle.  The risk and demand
for skills remain.

I have a related dilemma to pose:  a guy I sometimes paddle with regularly
wimps out on easy crossings.  He is so paranoid about capsizing he often will
alter the angle he takes across a half-mile channel, just to keep the
chop/swells off his beam.  He's a nice guy, and he is a good paddling companion
in many other respects.  So, I'd really like to get him over his paranoia.  I
have been trying various means to ramp up his comfort level, with only a little
success:  showing him how stable his boat is on short crossings, purposefully
engaging him in small, measured amounts of rough stuff, and a couple "sink or
swim" events (much moaning and wailing).  I have been hounding him to slop
around in some small surf to find the limits of his boat, but he has not done
that yet.  I'd drag him out myself, but he lives a couple hundred miles from
me.

Does anybody have a regime to help here?  The guy has been paddling for five
years plus, so there is a lot of reprogramming to do.  Things are bad enough
that many of his one-time paddling partners will no longer go on trips with
him, even though they like the guy personally.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:12:45 EST
In a message dated 00-11-29 05:42:44 EST, KiAyker_at_aol.com writes:

<<  I have found that more times then not, people 
 resent having a stranger step up and try to help. I >>

This reminded me of an occasion in a group paddling trip where a  newbie was 
lagging way behind, obviously did not like the little tips I was giving her, 
didn't want to try them out, and then told me to go on ahead that she would 
just meander along at her own pace.

Although I was not a designated sweep (and none had been assigned), I just 
said, "We don't leave people behind."  

Fortunately, this was a hugging the coastline and islands type of trip in the 
Keys (warm water, another-day-in-paradise type of day), so I just set myself 
in relax mode and kept near her with my mouth shut (THAT was the hard part :)

sandy kramer in Miami where we're having a wee cold spell - it was actually 
58 degrees yesterday morning.

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From: <JSpinner_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 18:18:55 EST
In a message dated 11/29/00 2:46:21 PM, WaterCrosser_at_aol.com writes:

<< >>Yes, I enjoyed some sense of humor in watching some of these folks 
capsize while trying to land. <<


I believe a lot more people enjoy this too, but are afraid to admit it. >>

I have to go along with Jim. A lot of times things that in the retelling 
sound awful were hysterical to see, like the expression on the face of 
someone just when they know they are going over. That is why the banana peel 
is so funny, just like all slapstick.
    The two funniest things I've ever seen in my life were someone falling 
off, rather, over a horse and someone closing a glass door and walking right 
into it. Only dignity was injured but just the thought of those can bring 
tears to my eyes as I laugh yet again.
    Scott, dean man, you knew full well you'd be chided for what you wrote 
and I highly suspect you got a kick out of it. I'm not so sure that Kathleen 
knew what she was in for, though. I wondered who would bite as I read your 
report.
    Kathleen, it is really okay. This list can lack a sense of humor at 
times. As far as I can tell, no one is angry with you at all. This is just a 
place where we all have to put our 2 cents in, even when we are broke. When I 
want to take someone to task, or correct something they said, I keep in back 
channel. I think you have now found out why.
    Be welcome here and don't let these guys make you feel bad. Sometimes we 
hit the send button before we have thought things all the way through. We 
have a bunch of lawyers here and they WILL comment on a misstatement.

Joan Spinner
    

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From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 08:05:02 -0500
At 06:18 PM 11/29/00 -0500, JSpinner_at_aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 11/29/00 2:46:21 PM, WaterCrosser_at_aol.com writes:
>
><< >>Yes, I enjoyed some sense of humor in watching some of these folks 
>capsize while trying to land. <<
>
>
>I believe a lot more people enjoy this too, but are afraid to admit it. >>
>
>I have to go along with Jim. A lot of times things that in the retelling 
>sound awful were hysterical to see, like the expression on the face of 
>someone just when they know they are going over. That is why the banana peel 
>is so funny, just like all slapstick.

If I recall, what Kathleen was objecting to was the fact that they were
sitting back and "enjoying the semi-carnage", essentially enjoying the
lesser skilled paddlers inability to negotiate conditions which they
felt were easy.  They weren't laughing *with* the paddlers that were 
having trouble, they were laughing *at* them, and specifically at the
fact that those that capsized were not as skilled as they were.   

>    The two funniest things I've ever seen in my life were someone falling 
>off, rather, over a horse and someone closing a glass door and walking right 
>into it. 

My brother walked into a closing glass door once.  It resulted in 170 stitches
and several permanant scars.  I don't think *he* thought it was very funny.



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From: Bob Volin <bobvolin_at_bestweb.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 22:11:51 -0500
Interesting problem, Dave..

I'm sure there will be many responses to this that are more thoughtful than
mine, but I think that one way to approach this fellow is to help him get
more comfortable IN the water.  If capsizing becomes less threatening to
him, he might be more comfortable edging his boat and bracing.

Accordingly, I'd offer to work with him on wet exits, eskimo rescues (bow
and paddleshaft), and variations on the t-rescue.  If he takes to that, then
perhaps he'll get into rolling and more extreme bracing (pool sessions in
winter are a great way to build confidence for the spring/summer/fall
season).  Once he's gone there, he'll be much happier in rough stuff.  Come
to think of it, a well-managed surf class would also be beneficial.


Best of luck to you both!

    Bob V


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From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] are beginners allowed?
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 07:41:09 EST
<<    Scott, dean man, you knew full well you'd be chided for what you wrote 
 and I highly suspect you got a kick out of it. >>

   I'm guilty as charged. What can I say? I flunked out of the Betty Ford 
clinic for the controversially challenged. So sorry, Kathleen. I was just 
having a little fun at someone else's expense. Oops, there I go again!

Gotta go,

Scott
So.Cal.

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