Hi, I have almost a half dozen things I have seen or read lately that makes me wonder whether we should be rethinking some of the things we know or think we know about drysuits and wetsuits. Here are the items in capsule form: 1. Sea Kayaker published an article earlier on dry suits in which I took issue with some of the author's comments. One was regarding use of a neck ring to relieve some of the pressure of the neck gasket. In my letter which SK published I commented on that (and also the idea of leaving the drysuit off the top of your body while paddling in calm conditions...but that is a separate issue). The author replied that even with the neck ring on you would only get a few ounces of water into the suit if you capsize and roll back up. 2. Greg Stamer in answering some of my questions regarding the tuliaq, nightshirt looking Greenland neoprene garment, referred to something that the editor of SK wrote. In brief, in a capsize he found that the tuliaq captured air underneath and that by tucking the open bottom hem inbetween his legs he significantly limited the amount of water flushing in and out. In summary, the tuliaq, while open at the bottom and not tight fitting, gave a surprising amount of warmth. 3. In rec.boats.touring there was a recent discussion regarding two piece drysuits, actually more specifically, combining a dry top and dry pants. I raised some issues regarding it but one individual said that some instructors he knows swear by the arrangement and say very little water gets in past the non-gasketed mating of the two pieces of garment. 4. The gaskets at the ankle on drysuits are generally recognized as one of the hardest things to deal with such suits. One answer has been glued in booties which are not so constrictive and much easier to get into. And that led to a discussion in which the issue of possible damage to the bootie was raised and then answered by pointing out that very little water is likely to enter from below. 5. I hope this doesn't sound too far off base but then there is the case of the guy who recently encased himself in a block of ice in NYC' Time Square for several days. 6. In the neat slide show that my tocayo Ralph Hoehn sent in yesterday we have great photos of German kayakers in among ice floes wearing at best rain slickers and wool on a paddling expedition in 1935. So my question is basically is what we feel we know about drysuits and wetsuits is all wet and should we be rethinking things. A. First wetsuits: a given in neoprene wet suits is that you must have them extraordinarily tight or otherwise they won't work. I have discarded several neoprene farmer johns because of either increased tightness or growing intolerance for them. The tuliaq case as presented by Greg Stamer would seem to indicate that perhaps we don't have to boa constrictor ourselves to death in tight wetsuits and that a real loose fit would be survivable. b. Regarding drysuits, the wisdom is that they must be fully sealed off religiously so. But if wearing a neck ring compromises water intergrity so minimally (the few ounces that were reported to get by the open neck gasket), then why have latex gaskets at all? Wouldn't we be better off with say a Darlexx gasket which is like neoprene but doesn't itself absorb water that can trickle in? And if the combo of a dry top and dry pants lets in minimal amounts of water, why should we get caught up in the discomfort of a full suit? Can a case now be made for the semi-dry suits that were ushered in about a dozen years ago and eventually dropped? These had neoprene gaskets and a non-waterproof zipper that closed similarly to a dry bag with overlapping flaps over the zipper. I am not arguing with any of what has been reported. I am taking the 6 points above as givens. Am just wondering if such facts may want us to reconsider the cold-water garments we use, their materials, and how we use them. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/30/00 11:16:42 AM, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: <<1. Sea Kayaker published an article earlier on dry suits in which I took issue with some of the author's comments. One was regarding use of a neck ring to relieve some of the pressure of the neck gasket. In my letter which SK published I commented on that (and also the idea of leaving the drysuit off the top of your body while paddling in calm conditions...but that is a separate issue). The author replied that even with the neck ring on you would only get a few ounces of water into the suit if you capsize and roll back up.>> One of the discussions we've had down here is just how tight the neck needs to be in a dry top/suit. I kind of subscribe to the idea that I don't need to always warn someone that I'm about to put it on and to have a pair of scissors handy just in case. The thought is that the water itself will assist in sealing the gasket against the skin. I have done a good amount of swimming in my drysuit and never got the impression I was getting any leaking, no feeling any cold. I can't say if it leaks because mine is a coated drysuit and I sweat a great deal in it when I first put it on so who knows where the moisture comes from. I've had times when I literally pulled the ankle gaskets away from my skin and had sweat run out of the leg. With that amount of moisture in the thing anyway, what is a dribble of water more? I just can't see it making a real difference in the amount of heat the body has to produce to maintain itself in the water. But I can see the substantial advantage of not being strangled. << 2. Greg Stamer in answering some of my questions regarding the tuliaq, nightshirt looking Greenland neoprene garment, referred to something that the editor of SK wrote. In brief, in a capsize he found that the tuliaq captured air underneath and that by tucking the open bottom hem in between his legs he significantly limited the amount of water flushing in and out. In summary, the tuliaq, while open at the bottom and not tight fitting, gave a surprising amount of warmth. >> <<A. First wetsuits: a given in neoprene wet suits is that you must have them extraordinarily tight or otherwise they won't work.>> The function of the two garments is very different. What keeps one warm in the wetsuit is the water trapped between the skin and suit that has been warmed by the body heat. Therefore the need for it to be tight, but not super tight. To some degree the neoprene keeps so much flushing of cold water from happening. The tuliaq sounds more like a diving bell that has air trapped at the top. The pressure of the air would keep water out, thereby keeping flushing from happening. The major drawback that I can see to the tuliaq is that you can't swim in it without loosing all or most of the air thereby necessitating more loss of body heat to warm the water inside the garment, which I'd think would be a big problem, beyond just the effort of swimming in something that is around your legs. Joan Spinner who has never even seen a tuliaq except on a hanger *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
JSpinner_at_aol.com wrote: > > In a message dated 11/30/00 11:16:42 AM, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: [snip] > <<A. First wetsuits: a given in neoprene wet suits is that you must have > them extraordinarily tight or otherwise they won't work.>> > > The function of the two garments is very different. What keeps one warm > in the wetsuit is the water trapped between the skin and suit that has been > warmed by the body heat. Therefore the need for it to be tight, but not super > tight. To some degree the neoprene keeps so much flushing of cold water from > happening. Glad to see your experience is similar to mine, Joan. My experience with wet suits is very different from Ralph's. I wear mine snug, yet it moves easily over my skin while paddling. If I go for a swim, the wet neoprene becomes even stretchier, and does not bind me. Even so, there is very little exchange with surrounding cold water, unless I thrash around a lot. In short, my farmer john works well for me, while Ralph has trouble with his. Could this be a function of body type? I think Ralph is slender and I am not. In fact, on multiday trips I usually wear my FJ through the set up camp phase, expecially if it is raining, so my "dry" camp gear does not get soaked. The next morning, I am usually donning a damp wet suit ... which I will be doing forever unless I can convince that coyote that ran off with Mark White's booties to snatch my FJ. (Then I could buy a real dry suit!) -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/30/00 11:16:42 AM, rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com writes: <<1. Sea Kayaker published an article earlier on dry suits in which I took issue with some of the author's comments. One was regarding use of a neck ring to relieve some of the pressure of the neck gasket. In my letter which SK published I commented on that (and also the idea of leaving the drysuit off the top of your body while paddling in calm conditions...but that is a separate issue). The author replied that even with the neck ring on you would only get a few ounces of water into the suit if you capsize and roll back up.>> One of the discussions we've had down here is just how tight the neck needs to be in a dry top/suit. I kind of subscribe to the idea that I don't need to always warn someone that I'm about to put it on and to have a pair of scissors handy just in case. The thought is that the water itself will assist in sealing the gasket against the skin. I have done a good amount of swimming in my drysuit and never got the impression I was getting any leaking, no feeling any cold. I can't say if it leaks because mine is a coated drysuit and I sweat a great deal in it when I first put it on so who knows where the moisture comes from. I've had times when I literally pulled the ankle gaskets away from my skin and had sweat run out of the leg. With that amount of moisture in the thing anyway, what is a dribble of water more? I just can't see it making a real difference in the amount of heat the body has to produce to maintain itself in the water. But I can see the substantial advantage of not being strangled. << 2. Greg Stamer in answering some of my questions regarding the tuliaq, nightshirt looking Greenland neoprene garment, referred to something that the editor of SK wrote. In brief, in a capsize he found that the tuliaq captured air underneath and that by tucking the open bottom hem in between his legs he significantly limited the amount of water flushing in and out. In summary, the tuliaq, while open at the bottom and not tight fitting, gave a surprising amount of warmth. >> <<A. First wetsuits: a given in neoprene wet suits is that you must have them extraordinarily tight or otherwise they won't work.>> The function of the two garments is very different. What keeps one warm in the wetsuit is the water trapped between the skin and suit that has been warmed by the body heat. Therefore the need for it to be tight, but not super tight. To some degree the neoprene keeps so much flushing of cold water from happening. The tuliaq sounds more like a diving bell that has air trapped at the top. The pressure of the air would keep water out, thereby keeping flushing from happening. The major drawback that I can see to the tuliaq is that you can't swim in it without loosing all or most of the air thereby necessitating more loss of body heat to warm the water inside the garment, which I'd think would be a big problem, beyond just the effort of swimming in something that is around your legs. Joan Spinner who has never even seen a tuliaq except on a hanger *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
You open up a very interesting can of worms there, tocayo Ralph. "The Other Ralph" here. A heated discussion thread on the online forum at www.faltboot.de touched upon the subject briefly as the debate raged over whether PFDs might actually reduce your chance of survival when worn while kayaking ... let's not reawaken that topic here, but one important point made by the German speaking kayakers was this: The greatest threat to survival after exiting a kayak is hypothermia with drowning a somewhat distant second. They distinguished the effects of hypothermia in two categories: 1 - The onset of hypothermia (or even the pre-hypothermic stage) reduces your ability to perform self- or group-rescue techniques and thus causes you to be exposed to the very conditions that encourage hypothermia for a longer period, a viscious feedback cycle. 2 - Hypothermia eventually kills you unless, having failed to rescue yourself, outside help comes along in time. Clearly then the goal is to reduce the rapidity with which a paddler cools when immersed to the point where s/he has sufficient time to effect a re-entry / self-rescue or benefit from outside assitance before the effects of hypothermia prohibit this. The time frame we need to bridge depends on many parameters: The effective potential cooling rate (depending on water temperature, wind chill etc.), the physical condition of the paddler (fitness, body fat content etc.), ..., the paddler's clothing. Therefore the choice of clothing, as the only variable over which the paddler has control, actually depends on the other conditions. Those expedition kayakers back in 1935 had developed methods for dealing with individual and group emergencies. Compared to today's bewildering array of equipment, their choices with regard to clothing were limited. Their access to outside help was non-existent. And frankly, from talking to old timers in similar situations, I get the impressions that they expected to die if things went ultimately went wrong -- and they accepted that fact and went out anyway, even when professional expedition goals were not the driving factor! The www.faltboot.de thread contained strong arguments for not leaving the kayak in the first place (made possible, as we learned recently, even for non-rollers through the use of tuiliqs for example or generously cut sprayskirts and the "Petrussen Maneuver"). Failing that (they said), at the very least, we have to reduce the amount of time the paddler spends outside of the kayak to the absolute minimum (a question of practicing, practicing and practicing some more realistic self- and group-rescue techniques). One higly experienced sea kayaker wrote that wearing PFDs reduces your ability to re-enter the boat rapidly and that therefore he shuns their use under most circumstances. Again, let's leave the PFD debate behind, but take the point that clothing (and perhaps we should consider PFDs to be part of this) must not only protect against the cold, but must also not hinder re-entry procedures! Drysuits: Whenever I wear my two piece set-up I get wet ... from the inside. Due to the type of liner I wear, this does not compromise the insulating effect of the suit. If my gaskets leaked slightly, I would probably not feel much of a difference, i.e., I will certainly consider a neck ring in future. Mukluks, laced to prevent them slipping if I do need to make an attempt at swimming, are another addition I will consider. I NEVER go out in conditions that warrant a dry suit without a tight fitting long necked neoprene hood! Tuiliq: I reserve judgement until I have tried one (Christmas present, honey?). This is a piece of equipment clearly not designed for use while swimming. That's surely part of the equation. The point of all this? Choosing the most appropriate clothing for every outing is the result in effect of solving a pretty complicated equation, or at least taking an epxerienced and / or educated guess at the solution. Perhaps we should devote some time towards identifying and defining the elements of that equation further. The other Ralph Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On 30-Nov-2000 ralph diaz wrote: > Hi, > > I have almost a half dozen things I have seen or read lately that makes > me wonder whether we should be rethinking some of the things we know or > think we know about drysuits and wetsuits. Here are the items in > capsule form: > > 1. Sea Kayaker published an article earlier on dry suits in which I > took issue with some of the author's comments. One was regarding use of > a neck ring to relieve some of the pressure of the neck gasket. In my > letter which SK published I commented on that (and also the idea of > leaving the drysuit off the top of your body while paddling in calm > conditions...but that is a separate issue). The author replied that > even with the neck ring on you would only get a few ounces of water into > the suit if you capsize and roll back up. <Snip> Ralph, you are very obstinate in your thinking. The above mentioned author was me, and I'll respond to your comments below. > A. First wetsuits: a given in neoprene wet suits is that you must have > them extraordinarily tight or otherwise they won't work. I have > discarded several neoprene farmer johns because of either increased > tightness or growing intolerance for them. The tuliaq case as presented > by Greg Stamer would seem to indicate that perhaps we don't have to boa > constrictor ourselves to death in tight wetsuits and that a real loose > fit would be survivable. > A tuiliq is survivable and warm only in the event that you *always* make your roll. If your vision of safety includes preparing for the possibility of a swim, then a tuiliq is not at all safe without a wetsuit or drysuit underneath. > b. Regarding drysuits, the wisdom is that they must be fully sealed off > religiously so. But if wearing a neck ring compromises water intergrity > so minimally (the few ounces that were reported to get by the open neck > gasket), then why have latex gaskets at all? Because latex is the only truly waterproof seal, and neck rings can be installed and removed in only a few seconds either way. If you read carefully my article and my reply in the letters to the editor, the advice of using a neck ring (and unzipping the suit) is designed to solve a particularly nasty dillema. What to do when it's very warm and calm when you launch, but you want to be safe in case the conditions suddenly worsen when you are on the water. We all know how quickly conditions on the sea can deteriorate, and it would be shame if someone didn't wear their drysuit because it seemed to warm for the then currently benign conditions. Once on the water,it is too late to put on a drysuit, however a neck ring often allows enough extra ventilation when conditions are calm so that a drysuit can be worn comfortably. It takes only a second to dislodge a neck ring so that the drysuit seal is reestablished -- the neck ring is still around your neck, but it rests underneath the latex and is barely noticed. I have performed rolls with neck rings in very cold water... it really is no big deal. I have even dislodged the neck ring while upside down, reestablishing the neck seal, and rolled back up with only a few drops of water in my drysuit. I honestly fail to see how you can adamantly believe that neck rings so thoroughly compromise the safety of a drysuit when faced with these facts. I view wearing a neck ring as something similar to wearing sunglasses. It makes you more comfortable when it is hot (or the sun is out), and can doffed or donned in seconds only when a watertight seal is desired (or clouds cover the sun). As far as paddling with a drysuit unzipped or rolled around your waist... yes this does compromise safety. It is a more radical solution to same dilemma mentioned above, and using it *requires* understanding the issues and practicing the technique. My article explains the issues and risks clearly, and this option is one clever solution to remaining safe and comfortable in *all* foreseeable conditions on a single paddling trip. I think I can see one reason why you might not be able to understand the utility of my suggestions. If what you mostly do is paddle on short day trips in protected areas like New York, then perhaps you rarely encounter the extreme variety of conditions where something like this is truly useful. However, where I paddle in such as the San Juan Islands in Washington, it can often be 80F on the water on calm mornings, but as soon as the wind picks up (which it always does), the temperature can drop rapidly 20F or more. You are welcome to never follow my suggestions if you wish, but I think the information should be out there for discriminating paddlers to at least consider. Wouldn't we be better off > with say a Darlexx gasket which is like neoprene but doesn't itself > absorb water that can trickle in? And if the combo of a dry top and dry > pants lets in minimal amounts of water, why should we get caught up in > the discomfort of a full suit? It depends on where you are paddling and under what conditions. In the PNW where the water is frigid and the weather is often bad, a drysuit is the ultimate in warmth, safety, and comfort. In Florida, where it the water is very warm, a drysuit is definitely not worth the discomfort. There is no waterproof alternative to a drysuit with latex gaskets however. Can a case now be made for the semi-dry > suits that were ushered in about a dozen years ago and eventually > dropped? These had neoprene gaskets and a non-waterproof zipper that > closed similarly to a dry bag with overlapping flaps over the zipper. > This sounds extremely unsafe in the event of an extended swim. Sounds much worse than using a neck ring, because it will always let water inside. I don't think a case can be made for ever using one of these suits. > I am not arguing with any of what has been reported. I am taking the 6 > points above as givens. And I am arguing that some of your points are not givens at all. Cheers, Kevin ---------------------------------- Kevin Whilden Your Planet Earth http://www.yourplanetearth.org E-Mail: kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org ph: (206) 788-0281 fax:(206) 788-0284 ---------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. 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Hi there Paddlewisers, I'd like to comment on a couple of things that Ralph just wrote: At 11:30 AM 11/30/00 -0800, ralph diaz wrote: >Hi, > >I have almost a half dozen things I have seen or read lately that makes >me wonder whether we should be rethinking some of the things we know or >think we know about drysuits and wetsuits. Here are the items in >capsule form: > I agree that it is good to examine and re-examine issues such as this from time to time. Thanks for bringing it up. >1. Sea Kayaker published an article earlier on dry suits in which I >took issue with some of the author's comments. One was regarding use of >a neck ring to relieve some of the pressure of the neck gasket. In my >letter which SK published I commented on that (and also the idea of >leaving the drysuit off the top of your body while paddling in calm >conditions...but that is a separate issue). The author replied that >even with the neck ring on you would only get a few ounces of water into >the suit if you capsize and roll back up. > I think that the important thing to realize here is that it is claimed that you only get a few ounces of water if you capsize and roll back up. That's great if you have a reliable roll that always works. But what if you go for a swim? What if your boat gets blown away? >2. Greg Stamer in answering some of my questions regarding the tuliaq, >nightshirt looking Greenland neoprene garment, referred to something >that the editor of SK wrote. In brief, in a capsize he found that the >tuliaq captured air underneath and that by tucking the open bottom hem >inbetween his legs he significantly limited the amount of water flushing >in and out. In summary, the tuliaq, while open at the bottom and not >tight fitting, gave a surprising amount of warmth. > When I read Greg's recent post it occurred to me that tucking in the open bottom of a tuliaq might keep you warm if you were just bobbing around waiting for help to arrive, but what about if you've tried a few self rescues that didn't work? I think all that thrashing around would flush in cold water and it would displace any trapped air. SNIP > >6. In the neat slide show that my tocayo Ralph Hoehn sent in yesterday >we have great photos of German kayakers in among ice floes wearing at >best rain slickers and wool on a paddling expedition in 1935. > > Yeah, but would they have chosen to wear drysuits if they we available and affordable in 1935? >So my question is basically is what we feel we know about drysuits and >wetsuits is all wet and should we be rethinking things. > >A. First wetsuits: a given in neoprene wet suits is that you must have >them extraordinarily tight or otherwise they won't work. I have >discarded several neoprene farmer johns because of either increased >tightness or growing intolerance for them. The tuliaq case as presented >by Greg Stamer would seem to indicate that perhaps we don't have to boa >constrictor ourselves to death in tight wetsuits and that a real loose >fit would be survivable. > It would be good to get some quantitative data here so when shopping for a wet suit, one could know how important the fit is. Of course if this info gets out, I won't be able to continually tell my wife that a diet for me would make my wet suit fit too loosely and put me at risk on the water. Bring out more turkey. >b. Regarding drysuits, the wisdom is that they must be fully sealed off >religiously so. But if wearing a neck ring compromises water intergrity >so minimally (the few ounces that were reported to get by the open neck >gasket), then why have latex gaskets at all? Wouldn't we be better off >with say a Darlexx gasket which is like neoprene but doesn't itself >absorb water that can trickle in? And if the combo of a dry top and dry >pants lets in minimal amounts of water, why should we get caught up in >the discomfort of a full suit? Can a case now be made for the semi-dry >suits that were ushered in about a dozen years ago and eventually >dropped? These had neoprene gaskets and a non-waterproof zipper that >closed similarly to a dry bag with overlapping flaps over the zipper. > Again, quantitative data is essential. If we are relying on the insulation under the dry suit to keep us warm, then we need to know how much that insulation would be degraded if we go for a swim. If latex gaskets mean no water gets in, then that's one data point. If another material lets in a "few ounces", well that's probably OK since I'm likely to be a little damp inside anyway. (Perhaps the equivilent of a few ounces.) I think it's also important which gaskets we're talking about. If water comes in my wrist seal, then I'm probably OK if only my sleeves get wet. Likewise for my ankles. If I'm wetting my trunk insulation, then that's more serious. Perhaps while we are considering a change in gasketing, we should remember another concern that Ralph recently pointed out, namely that if a significant amount of water enters your clothing and can't exit quickly, it makes rescues (self or with help) VERY difficult. >I am not arguing with any of what has been reported. I am taking the 6 >points above as givens. Am just wondering if such facts may want us to >reconsider the cold-water garments we use, their materials, and how we >use them. > I think it's great that we are looking at this and I'm looking forward to comments by others on this list. Bill Leonhardt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think that everyone's comments so far on this thread have some merit - for certain conditions, for certain people, at certain times. The 'other' Ralph raises good points about hypothermia and staying in/near the boat. Kevin makes valid points for the long distance touring paddler. Bill suggests obtaining quantitative data, but it seems to me that there are so many variables that it would be impossible to gather enough data to provide 'rules of thumb' for all paddlers. The key point IMO, is that each paddler must decide for him/herself what clothing to wear on each trip, and build a mental 'library' of different clothing options for different weather conditions, trip locations/durations, etc. When I teach paddling - particularly in colder weather/water conditions, I *always* dress for immersion in the event that one of the students will end up in a situation requiring me to get in the water - possibly for an extended period of time. OTOH, when I'm paddling with a small group of friends and am mostly sure that nothing untoward will happen, I often dress in a manner that would incapacitate or kill me if I were to spend much time in the water. The development of hard skills is one mark of a paddler as s/he progresses from novice towards expert. Another, and perhaps equally important, measure is the development of soft skills such as knowing how to dress for a particular trip and developing judgement to determine the level of risk that s/he is willing to tolerate on that day and in the situation that is evolving. On club trips that I host/coordinate/lead, I've often been asked "what should I wear?", and my typical response is "that is something that you should decide for yourself." That response is followed by a discussion of factors to be considered in making a clothing decision, e.g. - How long is the trip (several hours vs. several days)? - Will there be periods of intense activity followed by inactive periods? - What are the temperature/wind conditions now, and what are they forecast to be later? - What are your skills? - Are you certain that you will stay upright? - If you tip, can you roll? - If you can't roll, how quickly can you re-enter? - Do you like to stay active, or do you sit back and watch? - What is your basal and active metabolic rate? - Do you get cold easily? - All over, or just your hands/feet? - Do you have extra clothes along that you can add/change into? - Will there be an opportunity to add/change clothes? - Have you eaten a good meal this morning? - Have you brought water along so you can stay hydrated? - Do you have some sort of head and/or hand covering/protection? - What are you wearing on your feet? - Are your gaskets in good shape, or are they about to tear? After laying out all of these (and any other that come to mind) options, I might discuss how I am dressed that day and why, and maybe play '20 questions' with the paddler who asked my opinion to get them thinking - **and making their own decisions**. Ralph posed the question as to whether or not we should be rethinking the wetsuit vs. drysuit (vs. tuliaq?) questions that arise every so often in this forum and in various media. My response is that we should rethink all of these things - every time we go paddling - and especially in cold water/weather conditions. Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 11/30/00 11:30 AM, ralph diaz at rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com wrote: > I have almost a half dozen things I have seen or read lately that makes > me wonder whether we should be rethinking some of the things we know or > think we know about drysuits and wetsuits. Here are the items in > capsule form: snip Ralph and Kevin, I've been using a Gortex drysuit for about 5 years for sea kayaking and white water kayaking here in Washington State. The neck and wrist gaskets are trimmed properly for my size and I find it very comfortable. My suit has the latex booties installed. They are easy to get in and out of and my feet are always dry. I use this drysuit year round. If it is a hot summer day I can easily cool off with a few rolls. The same suit keeps me warm and dry even on a snowy winter day running a ice cold river. I've used this gortex suit to keep me comfortable for hours while swimming in the surf, shooting video in the cold Pacific. I can't say that I'm doing any rethinking on dry suits because mine is working fine for me, in the waters I paddle and swim in. On the subject of neck rings, I used one for a while but decided it was more trouble than it was worth. Getting it in position to hold the gasket open was a hassle. Maybe there is a trick I don't know about. I found that I'd rather do a roll to cool off or just scull with my torso and neck in the water if I want to keep the salt water off of my sunglasses. But I have to agree with Kevin when he says the neck ring does not really compromise the immersion protection. I did rolls and wet exits with the neck ring and the amount of water was very minor. Paddling with a dry suit top off? Personally that is something I would never do. I don't see the need and I don't like the risk. That's my personal decision. In defense of dry suits, the key is learning how to trim the gaskets properly so they are not too tight for comfort while still being snug enough to keep water out. Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Concerning the tuiliq (pronounced doo-il-ik for those who are qajaqophonetically challenged); I think the fact that the Brooks tuiliq is made of neoprene is confusing the issue. A tuiliq, whether made of neoprene, nylon, sealskin, etc., functions as a drytop rather than as a wetsuit. It is meant to trap air, not water, hence the loose, baggy fit. To dress for a swim, simply add suitable garments underneath the suit, as recommended in the paragraph from Chris Cunningham, that I quoted in my post. Hopefully the freedom of motion and extra buoyancy provided by a tuiliq will allow you to improve your rescue skills and prevent you from becoming flotsam in the first place. If you do bail out, even with a drysuit or wetsuit underneath the tuiliq, Chris's comments about withdrawing into the air pocket of the suit is useful information should you need to remain still and conserve warmth. Concerning neck rings, I have used them often. I find it very easy to free the latex neck seal from the ring, even when capsized, as Kevin reports. Venting the suit helps but does not work miracles. During my first race in Greenland at this year's National Championships, I wore a Goretex suit, for safety concerns in the 34 degree F water. Although vented with a neck ring, I became so overheated at 100% output that it seriously affected my performance and created a danger in its own right. For the following races, I had to choose between points or immersion protection. Considering that there were rescue boats present, I opted for the points and discarded the drysuit (as did the vast majority of the field). I am usually quite conservative with my safety gear, but at some point in your paddling career, you may find yourself perfectly willing to bet your life against your skills and judgment, without your usual "safety-net". Ensure that you know the risks and are willing to accept the consequences. Greg Stamer Orlando, Florida http://www.magicnet.net/~gstamer/QK.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
ralph diaz wrote: > I am not arguing with any of what has been reported. I am taking the 6 > points above as givens. Am just wondering if such facts may want us to > reconsider the cold-water garments we use, their materials, and how we > use them. I re-quote myself to make clear that for purposes of the discussion/rethinking I was stipulating as givens the minimal amount of water entry stated by several individuals. I think there have been some very useful comments made. one of the most useful was that from Rex Robertson where he says that the secret to comfort/utility of a dry suit is getting the right cut of the latex gaskets that will be comfortable but still keep water out. I want to make it clear that I am not advocating not using cold-water protection. Far from it. Just wondering whether we can do things like what Rex points out about gaskets. Or his classic advice about roto-cooling, i.e. cool-off rolling if you are wearing a drysuit in high air temperatures (or if you don't have a reliable roll, just do some upper body dips while hanging on to the bow of a friend's kayak). However, I still take exception with Kevin about wearing a dry suit at half mast (i.e. the top part off or the zipper open) while on the water. Doing so counts too much on the smarts of the paddler and sea conditions remaining calm or, when conditions suddenly turn bad, having enough time to get the dry suit back on properly or not getting caught half way into it and capsizing. He says "You are welcome to never follow my suggestions if you wish, but I think the information should be out there for discriminating paddlers to at least consider." He also says "Ralph, you are very obstinate in your thinking." Perhaps I am. My obstinance with this is that the information was written in a national magazine, Sea Kayaker, that many people take as gospel. I am not certain how discerning or discriminating a beginner or intermediate paddler may be in reading the advice about going half-mast in a dry suit while on the water no matter how calm the conditions. I don't believe there were enough caveats attached neither in the article nor in his followup to my Letter To The Editor regarding this. Kevin is a world class paddler and instructor; there aren't all that many around. What works for him, a recognized expert, and which he advises a general public to consider, may not likely work for the least common denominator paddler who is reading it and has a fraction of Kevin's skill level. How many Sea Kayaker readers, or even the more select group of us on Paddlewise, could do what Kevin can such as while capsized, manage to release a neck ring holding the latex neck gasket open while all the time hanging on to paddle and then when completing the task smoothly rolling up? Remember this was in a general piece on dry suits in a national magazine not some esoteric discussion in some internal BCU instructors communique or a more select publication like Anorak with mainly discerning readers. Kevin and Sea Kayaker are very lucky that Kevin's piece appeared well after Jack Martin's friend, Rhino, perished in calm conditions on a Great Lake in Autumn while apparently paddling with his dry suit zipper open. Any smart lawyer who could establish that Rhino may have read the article would have had a slam-dunk case against both Kevin and the magazine. I still maintain, with un-apologetic obstinance, what I wrote in my letter to Sea Kayaker, namely, if you are going to wear a dry suit, for heaven's sake, wear the suit dry. I find it interesting that Sea Kayaker printed my letter and that of another individual who had accidently left his newly added relief zipper open and had a devil of an experience after a capsize. Perhaps they may have had second thoughts about the article. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph, sorry it took me a few days to respond. Busy weekend on the water, and you know how it goes.... On 01-Dec-2000 ralph diaz wrote: > However, I still take exception with Kevin about wearing a dry suit at > half mast (i.e. the top part off or the zipper open) while on the > water. Doing so counts too much on the smarts of the paddler and sea > conditions remaining calm This seems to be a religious difference now. Should we allow for beginning kayakers to be complete idiots and teach only watered down theories so that they have no chance of accidently harming themselves? Or do we teach people more advanced ideas and the methods for learning how to practice these ideas and even to know when they have attained to necessary level of skill/judgment to do so. At either end of the spectrum, the logic breaks down into absurdity. For instance, if one's primary concern is that paddlers not drown or die of hypothermia, then we shouldn't advise *anyone* to learn kayaking. Conversely, if one apriori expects all beginners to have expert level judgment, then it would do no harm to recommend that people try surfing monster waves or make long dangerous crossings, etc... There is balance between these two things, and we seem to have differing viewpoints. We do not have to agree on where this balance lies. My feelings are that experts kayakers also read Sea Kayaker, and I like to give them good ideas too. We don't want to bore the experts away from reading the magazine just because every article is written to the lowest common denominator of beginning kayakers. In everything that I write, I try to put in a mixture of advanced ideas and beginning/intermediate advice. or, when conditions suddenly turn bad, having > enough time to get the dry suit back on properly or not getting caught > half way into it and capsizing. He says "You are welcome to never > follow my suggestions if you wish, but I think the information should be > out there for discriminating paddlers to at least consider." He also > says "Ralph, you are very obstinate in your thinking." > I apologize for being kind of rude. I really regret saying this, it was written in the heat of the moment and I didn't edit the message carefully enough before sending it. Sorry. > Perhaps I am. My obstinance with this is that the information was > written in a national magazine, Sea Kayaker, that many people take as > gospel. I am saddened if people take articles in sea kayaker as "gospel". It is a dangerous thing to do in any outdoor sport, where genuine prophets are few and far between, and where techniques and ideas change rapidly. I am not certain how discerning or discriminating a beginner or > intermediate paddler may be in reading the advice about going half-mast > in a dry suit while on the water no matter how calm the conditions. I > don't believe there were enough caveats attached neither in the article > nor in his followup to my Letter To The Editor regarding this. I disagree, naturally. But certainly your letter helped clarify your point and hopefully makes readers a little more discriminating. It is a good thing when advice in the techniques section is questioned. Debate is good, and I appreciate your criticism. Kevin > is a world class paddler and instructor; there aren't all that many > around. What works for him, a recognized expert, and which he advises a > general public to consider, may not likely work for the least common > denominator paddler who is reading it and has a fraction of Kevin's > skill level. How many Sea Kayaker readers, or even the more select > group of us on Paddlewise, could do what Kevin can such as while > capsized, manage to release a neck ring holding the latex neck gasket > open while all the time hanging on to paddle and then when completing > the task smoothly rolling up? I would say that it is not really all that difficult if you are willing to practice it. Anyone who regularly practices hanging out upside down in kayak could easily handle this. It just isn't that difficult of a physical thing to do, and I am sure you could learn to do this yourself if you tried. If you can pop a sprayskirt and wet exit out of a kayak, you can also learn to pop a neckring first. The only difficult part is maintaining the presence of mind to not panic, and even this is not hard to avoid given some practice. I have heard very few legitimate excuses why someone can never learn how to remain calm while upside down. The initial stages of dispelling panic can be accomplished in five minutes, which is what I do with my students as the first thing before even learning the forward stroke. If someone isn't willing to try to do this, then wearing a neck ring, or unzipping a drysuit is not something they should consider doing. Remember this was in a general piece on > dry suits in a national magazine not some esoteric discussion in some > internal BCU instructors communique or a more select publication like > Anorak with mainly discerning readers. > Actually, what really appeals to me about Sea Kayaker is the high quality of articles, including advanced techniques. Without this, then Sea Kayaker would be just like Paddler magazine, or Canoe and Kayak, which are barely worth the paper they are printed on. I don't think the advice of what to do when conditions are temporarily too hot for a drysuit is esoteric in the slightest way. How many people have died from hypothermia in a kayaking accident? At least with my technique, it is possible to achieve a full drysuit functionality without having the land on shore. If someone chose to put their drysuit in a hatch because it was too hot in the morning, they are screwed unless they can somehow land on shore to put it on should conditions require it later. > Kevin and Sea Kayaker are very lucky that Kevin's piece appeared well > after Jack Martin's friend, Rhino, perished in calm conditions on a > Great Lake in Autumn while apparently paddling with his dry suit zipper > open. Any smart lawyer who could establish that Rhino may have read the > article would have had a slam-dunk case against both Kevin and the > magazine. > I vaguely remember this happening, but I do not remember the exact details. Can you fill me in on the specifics? Also, I don't think this would be a "slam dunk" case, since kayaking is inherently a risky sport. > I still maintain, with un-apologetic obstinance, what I wrote in my > letter to Sea Kayaker, namely, if you are going to wear a dry suit, for > heaven's sake, wear the suit dry. I find it interesting that Sea > Kayaker printed my letter and that of another individual who had > accidently left his newly added relief zipper open and had a devil of an > experience after a capsize. Perhaps they may have had second thoughts > about the article. > I do not believe this is case, based on my discussions with Chris Cunningham. We do agree that this is a risky thing to do, even if it quite appropriate and viable given certain circumstances. The only way for other paddlers to really learn their own good judgment on whether it is viable for them is to hear all sides of the story. This is why they printed the letters, and again, this is one thing that makes Sea Kayaker such a great magazine... this willingness to debate the fine points and the realization that there is no cut-and-dried black-or-white answer to a lot of kayaking questions. I am tempted to call Sea Kayaker the most scientific of kayaking mags. My final advice to anyone who has bothered to read this far... the only safe kayaker is the one who's level of judgment exceeds their level of physical skill. Kevin ps thanks for the world class paddler/instructor part. It made me blush, and I don't really believe you either. I am just a regular guy who likes to teach kayaking and has developed a knack for doing so effectively on the water and on the net. ---------------------------------- Kevin Whilden Your Planet Earth http://www.yourplanetearth.org E-Mail: kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org ph: (206) 788-0281 fax:(206) 788-0284 ---------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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