I've been sea kayaking for around 11 years. I paddle on the Pacific Ocean, and on San Francisco Bay, and I'm accustomed to wind, waves, and surf. About a year ago I started paddling a surf ski. My surf ski is a Twogood Offshore. It's about 18 1/2 feet long, and 19 inches wide. I've been paddling it in the Princeton Harbor (near Half Moon Bay, south of SF) in a variety of conditions including wind and chop. I'm pretty comfortable on it in the harbor, and haven't capsized in a long time. However, I have this problem. When I paddle out of the harbor, as soon as I'm beyond the protective arms of the breakwater I start getting extremely tense and uncomfortable. As I get tense I'm less stable on the boat, and therefore become more tense. I get so tense I just turn around and return to the harbor. Similarly, just yesterday I paddled the Offshore in its first race. It was a 7-nautical mile course running north of Coyote Pt. on SF Bay, and back again. The morning was windless and the water was as flat as a mirror. Piece of cake, right? Wrong. Looking over the expanse of water softened by haze, with no nearby landmarks, again I became tense. I did the best I could, focusing my sight on a nearby paddler. On the way back I asked another paddler if I could paddle with him, just so I could have someone to look at as we paddled. If I looked over my left shoulder, and out into the empty flat gray bay, I had a sensation that could only be compared with looking into a deep elevator shaft, or over a sheer cliff into infinity. I felt I was loosing my balance. On a 19-inch boat this is not a welcome feeling. Has anyone had similar experiences? I'd like to overcome this problem so I can enjoy paddling my surfski in open water. I think it also colors my paddling experience in my more stable touring kayak. My husband suggested hypnotism. Any other ideas about how to get over this? Thanks for your insights. Barbara ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Barbara Kossy Sea Kayak Italy P.O. Box 434 Moss Beach, CA 94038 650-728-8720 fax: 650-728-8753 bkossy_at_igc.org www.seakayakitaly.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<<If I looked over my left shoulder, and out into the empty flat gray bay, I had a sensation that could only be compared with looking into a deep elevator shaft, or over a sheer cliff into infinity. I felt I was loosing my balance.>> I know EXACTLY what you mean. I've got this kind of agoriphobia (I think that's the term) over open water too. It used to hit me as I drove. If I came on open water all of the sudden I'd just about panic with the feeling of suddenly falling. I'd look away to clear my head. If I knew it was coing I'd be a bit fearful as it came up but as soon as I was there I was okay. Being around it more has made it easier over time. I'm not so effeced when I'm in my boat because I can see shore, even if it is far way. I've never been far enough from land that I couldn't see it. I hope you get a good answer because this is one of the things that keeps me from even considering real sea kayaking. I can go out on the Chesapeake Bay but that isn't wide enough that I can't see land in the places we paddle. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My wife and I have occasionally had this experience (especially Wendy who is always the bow paddler). It usually occurs on relatively "flatwater", or calm water when the sky is reflected very strongly on the water's surface.(But can also occur with a solid overcast, and light swells) If there is no nearby point to focus your eyes upon there is a sense of being "suspended" between sky and water, and a sensation of "unrealness". It affects me a bit less, since I can focus on her back and the movement of her paddle. It makes you feel "dizzy". It also feels (in my subjective opinion) intensely pleasurable. There is a sensation of no longer being "apart" (on) from the water and (under) the sky, instead there is an intense feeling of "oneness and inseparability" from the environment. Euphoria, almost. But even as a young child I remember the same sensation lying on my back looking at the cumulus clouds drifting across the deep blue summer sky, on a hot afternoon, and a belief that I was "falling" somehow upwards. Now , I must confess, I did do a lot of "acid" in my youth...so I guess I have always percieved this type of "disorientation" as proof that I was getting my moneys worth! The same feeling I have today, when "it occurs in the middle of a canoe trip. "It" disappears almost immediately when a strong external stimulus occurs. I do believe that such a state might be dangerous for a fatigued paddle. Similar to "falling asleep at the wheel". Though , otherwise I guess I feel it is an "achievement" rather than a "disordered state". Wendy has taken photographs of the scene when she has felt this way. (She calls it exhilarating...the photo's are disorientating also, as your eye searches for an "upside" and a "gravity side") Just my experience. Rich ----- Original Message ----- From: <JSpinner_at_aol.com> To: <bkossy_at_igc.org>; <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 3:09 PM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Vertigo? > <<If I looked over my left shoulder, and out into the empty flat gray bay, I > had a > sensation that could only be compared with looking into a deep elevator > shaft, or over a sheer cliff into infinity. I felt I was loosing my balance.>> > > I know EXACTLY what you mean. I've got this kind of agoriphobia (I think > that's the term) over open water too. It used to hit me as I drove. If I came > on open water all of the sudden I'd just about panic with the feeling of > suddenly falling. I'd look away to clear my head. If I knew it was coing I'd > be a bit fearful as it came up but as soon as I was there I was okay. Being > around it more has made it easier over time. > I'm not so effeced when I'm in my boat because I can see shore, even if > it is far way. I've never been far enough from land that I couldn't see it. I > hope you get a good answer because this is one of the things that keeps me > from even considering real sea kayaking. I can go out on the Chesapeake Bay > but that isn't wide enough that I can't see land in the places we paddle. > > Joan Spinner > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Barbara wrote: (LARGE SNIP) > Has anyone had similar experiences? I'd like to overcome this problem so I > can enjoy paddling my surfski in open water. I think it also colors my > paddling experience in my more stable touring kayak. My husband suggested > hypnotism. Any other ideas about how to get over this? > Thanks for your insights. I have felt a sensation of disorientation while becalmed at sea and have heard others say they had similar feelings. I read (but can no longer remember where) that researchers had studied what they called "qajak angst" (SP?) among the Inuit. Apparently some Inuit lost touch with whether they were right side up or upside down. If I recall correctly it happened most often in calm conditions. Never heard of a cure. Cheers, John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I have felt a sensation of disorientation while becalmed at sea and have >heard others say they had similar feelings. I read (but can no longer >remember where) that researchers had studied what they called "qajak angst" >(SP?) among the Inuit. Apparently some Inuit lost touch with whether they >were right side up or upside down. If I recall correctly it happened most >often in calm conditions. > >Never heard of a cure. > >Cheers, > >John Winters > Peter Freuchen's Book of the Eskimo has a good treatise of "qajaq angst" also John Heath wrote a Sea Kayaker article on this topic a number of years ago, which I do not have available. Freuchen writes: "The Greenland fjords are peculiar for the spells of completely quiet weather, when there is not enough wind to blow out a match and the water is like a sheet of glass. The kayak hunter must sit in his boat without stirring a finger so as not to scare the shy seals sway. Actually, he can only move his eyes, as even the slightest move otherwise might mean game lost. The sun, low in the sky, sends a glare into his eyes, and the landscape around moves into the realm of the unreal. The reflex from the mirror-like water hypnotizes him, he seems to be unable to move, and all of a sudden it is as if he were floating in a bottomless void, sinking, sinking, and sinking .... Horror-stricken, he tries to stir, to cry out but he cannot, he is completely paralyzed, he just falls and falls and falls. This trance may last until perhaps a slight ripple of wind on the surface of the water brings reality back to him." Freuchen mentions no cure, the "kayak illness" accounted for the ruin of many able-bodied Greenland kayakers who were no longer able to provide for their families. Barbara, since you are paddling when you feel vertigo then you are probably experiencing something somewhat different than "qajaq angst". Perhaps talking, ensuring that you don't fix your gaze, and checking the horizon frequently would help. I have also heard of paddlers slapping a blade against still water in a fog, to provide sensory input, to prevent similar problems. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the problem disappears once your sense of balance on the surf-ski, and your confidence with it, improves. Greg Stamer *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Two articles about "kajak angst" appear in Eugene Arima's "Contributions to Kayak Studies" (1991, Canadian Museum of Civilization). Very interesting reading; sounds unreal, unless you've personally experienced such vertigo. I got it real bad one day on a glassy-calm water. The wake from two ships converged right where I was, and the wake was sizable, though strangely gentle enough to not mar the 'mirror-finish'. I immediately felt unsteady, nauseous, and had sensations of great speed-- both forward, AND backwards! (Snipped from J. Winters. . . ) "I read (but can no longer > remember where) that researchers had studied what they called "qajak angst" (SP?) among the Inuit. Apparently some Inuit lost touch with whether they were right side up or upside down. If I recall correctly it happened most > often in calm conditions" As for a cure, I've heard of nothing, and. . . .after hearing of Rich Dempsey's experience, yet another 'medication' can sadly be ruled out. --Harvey Golden (Rich Dempsey wrote: "Now , I must confess, I did do a lot of "acid" in my youth...so I guess I have always percieved this type of "disorientation" as proof that I was getting my moneys worth!) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Try polarized sunglasses -- may help with definition/contrast. Cheers, Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Barbara Kossy wrote: > > [snip] Looking over the expanse of water softened by haze, with no nearby > landmarks, again I became tense. I did the best I could, focusing my sight > on a nearby paddler. On the way back I asked another paddler if I could > paddle with him, just so I could have someone to look at as we paddled. If I > looked over my left shoulder, and out into the empty flat gray bay, I had a > sensation that could only be compared with looking into a deep elevator > shaft, or over a sheer cliff into infinity. I felt I was loosing my balance. > On a 19-inch boat this is not a welcome feeling. > Has anyone had similar experiences? Yup, and it is scary. Once, in a brightly back-lit haze on the water, with no reference marks. And, another time, in full-on whiteout on a glacier while on mountaineering skis. I suspect the only real cure is some other contrasting object. Another paddler is probably the best bet. Failing that, maybe concentrating on an object on your deck? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave, It seems to be related to losing a reference such as the horizon. When I crewed during overnight sailboat races, going below to update our nav charts and replot our course became a race between my internal gyros, my stomach, and the work to be done. The problem was lack of a definable reference, in this case, navigation buoy's or other ships clearance lights. Mike -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Dave Kruger Sent: Monday, November 06, 2000 7:53 PM To: Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Vertigo? Barbara Kossy wrote: > > [snip] Looking over the expanse of water softened by haze, with no nearby > landmarks, again I became tense. I did the best I could, focusing my sight > on a nearby paddler. On the way back I asked another paddler if I could > paddle with him, just so I could have someone to look at as we paddled. If I > looked over my left shoulder, and out into the empty flat gray bay, I had a > sensation that could only be compared with looking into a deep elevator > shaft, or over a sheer cliff into infinity. I felt I was loosing my balance. > On a 19-inch boat this is not a welcome feeling. > Has anyone had similar experiences? Yup, and it is scary. Once, in a brightly back-lit haze on the water, with no reference marks. And, another time, in full-on whiteout on a glacier while on mountaineering skis. I suspect the only real cure is some other contrasting object. Another paddler is probably the best bet. Failing that, maybe concentrating on an object on your deck? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 07:52 PM 11/6/00 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote: >Barbara Kossy wrote: >> >> [snip] Looking over the expanse of water softened by haze, with no nearby >> landmarks, again I became tense. I did the best I could, focusing my sight >> on a nearby paddler. On the way back I asked another paddler if I could >> paddle with him, just so I could have someone to look at as we paddled. If I >> looked over my left shoulder, and out into the empty flat gray bay, I had a >> sensation that could only be compared with looking into a deep elevator >> shaft, or over a sheer cliff into infinity. I felt I was loosing my balance. >> On a 19-inch boat this is not a welcome feeling. > >> Has anyone had similar experiences? > >Yup, and it is scary. > >Once, in a brightly back-lit haze on the water, with no reference marks. And, >another time, in full-on whiteout on a glacier while on mountaineering skis. I haven't experienced this in a kayak but I have while skiing. I was skiing Squaw Valley on a cloudy and snowey day. I rode up a chair and then started to make my way over to another area that is more protected where I felt visibility would be better. About half way there I went through an area where the snow was blowing over the ridge and down the slope and everything got white. I stopped, hoping to wait until the wind dropped a bit so I could see better. Then I felt my skis slip sideways. I was actually still moving but since I had no point of reference I didn't realize it. I sat down for a minute and it started to clear so I continued on. It was really wierd. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Barb, Yes, I suffered the same thing several months ago. The waters were really calm and I had a difficult time trying to stay upright. I couldn't paddle back to the take out without help. Luckily my wife was able to tow me and another paddler was able to hold on to my boat. The next few times when I went out I used some wrist pads. They are used to cure seasickness, and guess what it works for me! Hope that helps. Kirby Stevens *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Greg reflects; >Freuchen writes: >"The Greenland fjords are peculiar for the spells of completely quiet >weather, when there is not enough wind to blow out a match and the water is >like a sheet of glass. The kayak hunter must sit in his boat without >stirring a finger so as not to scare the shy seals sway. Actually, he can >only move his eyes, as even the slightest move otherwise might mean game >lost. The sun, low in the sky, sends a glare into his eyes, and the >landscape around moves into the realm of the unreal. The reflex from the >mirror-like water hypnotizes him, he seems to be unable to move, and all of >a sudden it is as if he were floating in a bottomless void, sinking, >sinking, and sinking .... Horror-stricken, he tries to stir, to cry out but >he cannot, he is completely paralyzed, he just falls and falls and falls. > This trance may last until perhaps a slight ripple of wind on the >surface of the water brings reality back to him." > >Freuchen mentions no cure, the "kayak illness" accounted for the ruin of >many able-bodied Greenland kayakers who were no longer able to provide for >their families. > Greg this really hits home. During my 20 day out at sea alone I felt truly part of the sea in the Gulf of Mexico. Each day brought it's own trials and tribulations. Each was anticipated except for day sixteen. All the previous days was days of chaotic seas ranging from three to ten foot waves created by the loop current. This day, day sixteen was one of 98 degree F and dead calm seas. It was truly a day of confusion. Should I paddle, no I can not afford to sweat, the fluid within my body was to valuable to waste in my quest to head north. The effort to make fresh water from the salt water that supported my vessel was to intense to replenish my body. Should I sleep in this scorching environment, how can I? I laid still with my head on the rear deck, no there was no sleep, my mind was fixed on the happenings around me. I could not keep my head on the rear deck. I was waiting, waiting for what? I did not have a clue but my mind told something was going to happen. Why was I so fixed on the happenings around me when it was dead calm? This feeling did not evolve on the hectic days of confused seas and ships encroaching within my boundaries threatening my life. Where am I ? Only two forms of the environment existed, no land, miles upon miles of water surrounded my kayak and three miles thick below me and the vast heavens above. There were no family or friends I could turn to, no comfort of a bed, no solid land to set foot upon. I had this feeling of the ocean bottom with all it's creatures would emerge from the depths below at any time. The sea seem to be a sleeping giant that I felt was going to waken, with a mighty roar as the depths would rise to the surface. Something is wrong here why won't the sea move? What creature is going to surface? The sea is preparing for something. Something must be going to happen why is the sea at rest? During a moving sea waves kept me aware of my surrounding and kept me busy surviving. I had no physical challenge this sixteen day. The challenge I have this day was one of the mind. The sea became vast it's true depth was relized There was no feeling of sinking but a feeling of the ocean bottom and the creatures would be coming up to greet me at any moment, friend or foe I did not know. A feeling of not sinking but the sea surrounding me with it's depth and creatures yet the tiny vessel staying on the surface of the water. I stayed fixed on watching the slime gathering against my hull an eerie feeling it was. No wind no current, how can this be so far from land in the Gulf of Mexico. I research and was prepared for every thing that happened thus far in a small vessel hundreds of miles from the closet land. Through my many readings and raised on the water with commercial fisherman in the very waters that engulfed me on day sixteen, nothing prepared me for this experience of the true power of the sea. Sure one can talk of the awesome power of the sea and surf. I have personally experience the true awesome power how the sea can over power the mind even at it's most placid state. It was this day of calm waters that was truly the most fearsome. It was this day the only day that visual hallucinations happened. Before this awesome day the only hallucinations was only entering through my ears not my eyes. Sure the big macho types can talk bout the big waves, powerful surf and fearsome currents lets see how they handle the dead calm in a true survival situation. The big waves, powerful surf and powerful currents are the easy part of the sea, they are predictable. I have been in placid water with no sight of land before but never experienced a feeling like I did on day sixteen. Guess with so many factors involved, sleep depravation, alone at sea for so many days, near miss from death by ships and fishing vessels, threat of water spouts and thunder heads, the pain from the many salt water boils over my entire body as fresh salt entered the wounds, missing my family and friends. I'm clueless to explain that feeling of day sixteen. Prior to my experience on that day sixteen I would not have understood Greg's clip from what Fleuchen wrote, now I do with all my heart Do I understand the feeling, yes. Understood why, I may never know. Could be I don't want to know. I would welcome the sea to enter my mind again. Acid and LSD ain't hitting on nuttin, the open sea is my drug of choice. How to over come her power over our simple minds................... I'll wait for someone else to explain how it's done. Then I shall sit back and :-) Our Mother The Sea The fatuous, she showers with humility. No fleshly form can match her force. Respect to her is breadth of vision. Beholden too her if to survive. Arthur Hebert 1998 http://homepages.gs.net/seacajun *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John Fereira wrote: > > At 07:52 PM 11/6/00 -0800, Dave Kruger wrote: > >another time, in full-on whiteout on a glacier while on mountaineering > skis [I experienced something akin to Barb Kossy's vertigo.] > [snip; John's description of a similar incident:] > About half way there I went through an > area where the snow was blowing over the ridge and down the slope and > everything got white. I stopped, hoping to wait until the wind dropped a > bit so I could see better. Then I felt my skis slip sideways. I was > actually still moving but since I had no point of reference I didn't > realize it. I sat down for a minute and it started to clear so I continued > on. It was really wierd. Wow. That's exactly what happened to us. We were above treeline and the whiteout descended, leaving us no reference marks. It was so disorienting that we could not tell when we were moving and when we were stationary. Sometimes we would set up for a kick turn and find out we were still moving => tangle of skis! Or, we would figure we were still moving and turn uphill to stop, and find out we were already stopped => another tangle of skis! Finally, we made the two snowshoers with us walk in front so we had something to focus on, and we were able to regain orientation. This was critical, because a strong winter storm had just hit the mountain, and we had to get back to treeline to survive. I'll never forget the experience! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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