Just finished reading the latest issue (DEC 2000). Great pic's by David. What ya gonna do with all the cash, David? Also, a really engaging article about paddling down-under by Norm Sanders, complete with a trip report, gear/boat/skill/gender issues, paddling politics, and a host of other items that one would normally consider far to parochial for a wide-audienced publication -- yet it forms the heart and sole of the article and adds immeasurably in describing the Aussie paddling scene. Congrats to SK for publishing it. Norm hits the nail on the head for every point he covers - even gets the crock attack in there. The issue also contains the full story about the bear attack on Admiralty Island last summer (the attack that Rev. Bob forwarded us a few details about when he got wind of it last season). The writer did an admirable job covering someone else's grief. The "top of the food chain" comments are priceless, as is the lesson that even the most avid, well educated, savvy outdoor adventured can still get into serious trouble. Some folks might not like to hear that. I've been begging SK to do a piece about communication ever since the Storm Island incident report by Matt got "pulled". The article about decision making and leadership in peer-groups is as excellent an article as they come. Congrats to SK for soliciting the material. It includes a discussion on gender differences too. Okay, I know I'm gushing, and a lot of you think SK is a big "cash cow" and doesn't have much in it other than canal "sea kayaking" and covert advertising (all untrue), but I for one have found something appealing in every issue. The DEC issue just happens to be all appealing to me. Okay, I'll shut up now (but do pick up an issue if you don't already subscribe!). If you are a student and absolutely broke, I will even send you an issue (I've got one extra one). FC, FS. Now that I've finished reading the entire issue, my wife can have me back again for my conjugal duties! PS I wonder who got their article rejected about doing a crossing without a VHF radio across a shipping channel? Mention was made in the editorial. Guess I shouldn't point fingers after the failed Storm Island crossing. I do know I went out and bought a waterproof VHF right after the incident, after having to un-strap and pop the back hatch of the only person's kayak who had a radio on our trip (they had buried it in the hatch, fearful of it getting wet and becoming useless during a possible future emergency). I guess as long as we are all learning from our mistakes, that is the main thing. Right? BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (who has no financial connection with SK - haven't even written for them lately, devoting myself to magazines/newsletters (it costs ME money to do this) not at the "top of the food chain" this past year). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > Just finished reading the latest issue (DEC 2000). [snip] > PS I wonder who got their article rejected about doing a crossing > without a VHF radio across a shipping channel? Mention was made in the > editorial. Guess I shouldn't point fingers after the failed Storm Island > crossing. I do know I went out and bought a waterproof VHF right after > the incident, [snip] One wonders why the editor got fussy about that lapse, given the panopoly of other errors which appear in other articles. Perhaps it was the 'tude of the dude. IIRC (my issue is lost in the maelstorm we call a house), the guy was boastful. If memory serves me, Duane has pointed out on this list that "dodging" a freighter is easy for a maneuverable craft such as ours, if one has good visibility ... not that I'm eager to play in freighter traffic. Reminds me that a local pair got lost in rapture of the deep (or something, maybe vertigorapture) while ogling picturesque Skamokawa, upriver of here, only to catch a freighter bow in their peripheral vision ... just before the five long horn blasts! One of them, my long-time paddling buddy Gary, said it was nearly a brown cockpit experience! I love to twit him about this lapse, 'cause he's a degreed oceanographer! I would not want to be a grease spot on a freghter bow! Duane, if you are reading this: ever surfed a freighter wake? How close do you have to be to make that work? I never have, though I've hooked short rides on a couple tugboat wakes, generated by cooperative tug skippers who knew I wanted a big wake to play in. Ah, well, the games we play! While I'm babbling (see, Doug, others have run-at-the-mouth disease, too!), I should mention that the tug operators on the Columbia must be about the most savvy bunch of mariners extant 'round here. Same local pair mentioned above got searchlighted by a tug operator one *very* dark night as they paddled parallel to the ship channel (in safe waters). How he (she?) was able to pick them out against the dark shoreline boggles me. They run just outside the shipping channel, often, to stay away from the heavy tonnage. Nice guys, too. When paddling the Columbia, I leave my VHF in dual monitoring mode, on 13 and 16, just so I can listen to the shipping traffic -- nice to know when they are coming. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Also, a really engaging article about paddling down-under by Norm Sanders, complete with a trip report, gear/boat/skill/gender issues, paddling politics, and a host of other items that one would normally consider far to parochial for a wide-audienced publication -- yet it forms the heart and sole of the article and adds immeasurably in describing the Aussie paddling scene. Congrats to SK for publishing it. Norm hits the nail on the head for every point he covers - even gets the crock attack in there. >> One thing that raised my eyebrows was Norm's conclusion that the land of Oz lacks women sea kayakers because of a lack of sit-on-top kayaks there, which seems a bit naive, if not sexist, to me. I can only conclude it's a result of his meeting several women on sit-on-tops in California, which he wrote up in the NSWSKC newsletter a few years ago. Here in Minnesota, a large proportion of sea kayakers (and whitewater kayakers) are women, despite a similar lack of sit-on-tops. In his NSWSKC newsletter article, Norm made several generalizations about the sea kayaking scene in America, based on his West Coast trip, that simply do not apply, at least to the same degree, on the East Coast and in the Great Lakes states, where the BCU influence is fairly strong. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/7/00 10:46:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, dlloyd_at_telus.net writes: << PS I wonder who got their article rejected about doing a crossing without a VHF radio across a shipping channel? Mention was made in the editorial. >> Doug, I was also wondering who are these sea kayakers. Actually, the editor wrote that while they were making a crossing in fog, they didn't contact any vessels with their VHF despite passing through shipping lanes. Also, they didn't have a GPS. It kind of sounds like my most recent crossing trip, but my partner, Jim Gabriel, and I each had a GPS. My trip report was rejected by sea kayaker for similar reason's, but I don't believe that the editor was referring to my trip, because I assume that the magazine issue was complete before my trip report was received. Also, he referred to the trip report from this other group in my rejection letter. It sounded like the other trip was done in Southern California too. I did email the editor to ask him who are these reckless sea kayakers. I told him that I might want to do some crossings with them if they are from around here, because it is hard to find sea kayakers who have guts. What I was really saying was that he and 99% of sea kayakers are wimps. He wouldn't tell me who they are and said maybe I'll run into them in shipping lanes if the fog is thick enough. We were kind of joking with each other. However, I am looking for these guys as potential paddling partners. Let me know if anyone knows who they are. In another email, Dave Kruger asked if I have surfed the waves of ships. I've let a ship pass as close as 100 yards. I never found the wakes of ships to be any worse that a swell and never bothered to try to surf them. Maybe someday I'll surf a bow wave like the dolphins do--just kidding! Duane My rejected trip report: <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/pirateseakayaker/fandf.html">Northern Four Channel Islands Crossings</A> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 00-11-08 11:26:44 EST, cholst_at_bitstream.net writes: << One thing that raised my eyebrows was Norm's conclusion that the land of Oz lacks women sea kayakers because of a lack of sit-on-top kayaks there, which seems a bit naive, if not sexist, to me. >> Oh, dear.....and with apologies to Peter O and our other Ozzie friends, Australian men are not noted for being non-sexist. I believe the notion of "Sheilas" is still very much ingrained. sandy kramer miami *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Doug Lloyd [mailto:dlloyd_at_telus.net] Just finished reading the latest issue (DEC 2000). Great pic's by David. What ya gonna do with all the cash, David? I haven't seen the cheque yet though with the current state of the Australian Dollar it might be a nicer little earner. I havn't seen the magazine either as its Mid December before we see it in Australia. David Whyte Australia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mr. Dave Kruger said: <<<One wonders why the editor got fussy about that lapse, given the panopoly of other errors which appear in other articles. Perhaps it was the 'tude of the dude. IIRC (my issue is lost in the maelstorm we call a house), the guy was boastful.>>> I know for a fact it wasn't Duane who had his article rejected regarding a crossing on California's coast. I think I encouraged Duane to submit it around for consideration. He has done a few crossings, and is learning respect and seamanship as he progresses in his adventures -- is that not how most of us progress in an athletic oriented activity, where an element of danger exists? However, I still think Duane's last trip posted on Paddlewise expressed a little less safety reflection than perhaps it should have. Leaving to do long crossings in the afternoon wind, across shipping channels without navigational support and communication, is not the best in seamanship. I said nothing at the time, as I am no one to point fingers, and I also did not want to run the risk of hurting Duane's feelings, as I enjoy what he writes and his matter-of-fact style and unabashed enthusiasm, nor did I want him running from PW as I'd miss his contributions very much. I don't recall any traffic on PW subsequent to his post, conveying praise upon him. I took this as a sign that others perhaps had some legitimate concerns. Let's take this conversation away from the disservice of parading Duane's name around PW, and just talk about crossings in general. They are always a dangerous undertaking - in both calm or rough waters according to Arthur. I've done a few off season ones, and know the dangers of the latter. In general: unexpected winds, vessel traffic where low visibility exits, solo paddles with no support, tricky tides, and cold conditions and other injuries can all conspire against a safe crossing completion. The Coast Guard has certainly expressed to me the fact they consider longer crossings in a "coastal craft" as a very stupid thing. Benign Positional Vertigo is a very real posibility too, and can be malignant under the wrong situation. That is why I always carry my back-up Sea Seat. It would seem the least we can do as responsible paddlers is to make sure all your bases are covered before attempting a crossing, and that we are careful how we present these reports. I also know that here in Canadian waters, Vessel Traffic Services might have some regulatory weight to bear on you if you start to screw around in major shipping channels. I know, because I've gone out and "chased down" freighters in open type waters far from shore, catching there wake and generally showing off. Maneuverability is good with a sea kayak, and during small craft warnings or higher winds, following seas can be used for doubling your speed out of the way. All makes sense to me, but the authorities don't see it that way. Add fog, and you better be able to communicate if there is trouble. <<<If memory serves me, Duane has pointed out on this list that "dodging" a freighter is easy for a maneuverable craft such as ours, if one has good visibility ... not that I'm eager to play in freighter traffic.>>> Glad you added the visibility part, Dave. <snip stuff for Duane to respond to> <<<While I'm babbling (see, Doug, others have run-at-the-mouth disease, too!), I should mention that the tug operators on the Columbia must be about the most savvy bunch of mariners extant 'round here.>>> Any mariner that frequents that friggin Columbia River Bar has to have lots of savvy! Well, I will not be running-on-at-the mouth much further anymore at this tme in the immediate future for a while. Some back-channel e-mail has me convinced that some folks think I write on PW for kicks and recognition, or some such thing. I've done a lot of wild stuff over the years, and simply want to share some of these experiences for their lessons sake, not popularity. Everything I do on the water, is done with a degree of safety in mind. Even the "open Canadian" canoe my family and I use for our wilder family times, is a huge stable vessel with a high bow that cuts up and over most dangerous waves, etc. My posts usually do injustice to these kind of background considerations. I will be lurking far more from now on, and let others have some bandwidth. I'll post relevant stuff from my log books as I see fit, and interject only if it is prudent to do. So, here's to lurking for now... BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/08/2000 8:16:53 AM Pacific Standard Time, Dave Kruger writes: << When paddling the Columbia, I leave my VHF in dual monitoring mode, on 13 and 16, just so I can listen to the shipping traffic -- nice to know when they are coming. >> WOW a bit of real useful information in the midst of the Paddlewise babble!! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've been lurking on this list for a very long time. I rarely see anything that gets me fired up including the thread a few months ago about crossing shipping lanes since many of the people on the list are nothing but "arm chair" paddlers. This is most obvious by reading the posts that speculate about the trip Duane Strosaker and I did implying we had thrown safety to the wind. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY ASININE. YOU ARE UNINFORMED! Granted, Duane didn't post on PW all the boring details of the preparation, training and planning we did the full year PRIOR to the trip. I will briefly discuss this BORING stuff here. Training: We did crossing (thru the shipping lanes) to Catalina, Anacapa, Santa Cruz. The return trip from Catalina (19NM) was done at night in the presences of at least 4 GPS, 6 compasses and 5 VHF radios and at least a half dozen assorted flares on a clear, calm night. We paddled together a lot on the weekends between trips, usually 10 to 15 NMiles. To really test our stamina, we did a 13 3/4 hour circumnavigation of Catalina Island (43 NMiles). For anyone to say we've done "few" crossings obviously doesn't know the type of crossings Duane and I have done. I suppose Ed Gillet also has done "a few". If you want to test your rolling and surf zone skills, take your sea kayak surfing. We did this several times to practice our skills in some four-foot surf. Its fun rolling a full swamped sea kayak. We've hosted ocean rescue sessions where we practiced as MANY rescues as possible. We did self rescues and group rescues. Preparation: Although we occasionally monitored the offshore weather buoys the ENTIRE year prior the crossing, we did several buoy checks EACH day for the entire month PRIOR to the crossing. While on the trip, we had daily contact with the forest rangers. Each day, THEY KNEW exactly where we were and were watching for us. Each day, the ranger on the island would radio ahead to our next landing spot letting them know WHEN the kayakers would be considered "Late" in arriving. We listened to the weather forecast EVERY morning and evening and sometimes in the middle of the day. We also made note of WHEN the forecast was last updated. A forecast that is 12 hours old may need to be questioned (better or worse) when it normally is updated every 3 hours. When we launched at 9:30a on the first morning, the forecast was OLD and the weather at the buoys was less than predicated. After paddling out 8 miles in clear, calm weather, we stopped and got another report at the channel buoy. The wind that we would have expected at noon, DID NOT EXIST. This was our "GO/NO GO" point. If the winds HAD been reported at buoy, we would have gladly and without question or debate, turned around and headed back to the mainland. Safety Gear: We each had a GPS, compass (I had two), a VHF radio, flares, EPIRB (Duane only), light sticks, reflecting mirror, flash lights, desalinization pump (me only), pumps, paddle floats, helmets, spare paddles, 8 days food and plenty of spare batteries (The typical safety gear). Moving ships are NOT that quiet. Their engines make a very loud, deep rumbling noise. Assuming the captain is willing to talk to you, how many can speak English? Yes, you NEED to be alert when you are crossing the shipping lanes. When we crossed them in the fog, our heads were on a CONSTANT swivel and our ears were perked, listening for ANY unusual sound. When you paddle with someone as much as I've paddled with Duane, we don't have THAT much to say, and it is real easy to listen. One question, are ANY of you THIS prepared for a trip half as challenging? In all, Duane is probably the most skilled/safety conscious paddler I know. I trust him with my life. He's level headed and skilled. Anyone of you should be so lucky to paddle with such a kayaker. It is only by advancing your skill level does the envelope of opportunity also grow. NOW, WASN"T THIS A BORING POST? Jim Gabriel - the lurker p.s. I have evidence of the sea/weather conditions during this crossings. I have a digital waterproof video camera and have the trip on tape. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 11/8/00 10:19:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, dlloyd_at_telus.net writes: << Well, I will not be running-on-at-the mouth much further anymore at this tme in the immediate future for a while. Some back-channel e-mail has me convinced that some folks think I write on PW for kicks and recognition, or some such thing. I've done a lot of wild stuff over the years, and simply want to share some of these experiences for their lessons sake, not popularity. Everything I do on the water, is done with a degree of safety in mind. Even the "open Canadian" canoe my family and I use for our wilder family times, is a huge stable vessel with a high bow that cuts up and over most dangerous waves, etc. My posts usually do injustice to these kind of background considerations. I will be lurking far more from now on, and let others have some bandwidth. I'll post relevant stuff from my log books as I see fit, and interject only if it is prudent to do. So, here's to lurking for now... >> I know i enjoy Doug's posts and have enjoyed his trip descriptions and have learned a lot from his other comments, so I would regret his holding back on sharing his thoughts. So, reconsider, Doug. Hank *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Henry, I saw the likes of Harvey Golden on this list recently. I'd rather shut-up for a while, and give some room for these very fine people to hopefully make some posts, etc. There are a lot of arm chair paddlers on this list, and that is okay. But I don't want to get in the way of significant paddlers who I'd love to sit back and listen too. BTW, my last post wasn't meant to be down on Duane - I just think we need to be careful about how we write about crossings, etc. I need to, too. PS If I don't back off PW a bit, my wife said she will pull my modem cord. That scares me. I don't want another "bobit" situation. :-) BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd HenryHast_at_aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/8/00 10:19:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, > dlloyd_at_telus.net writes: > > << Well, I will not be running-on-at-the mouth much further anymore at this > tme in the immediate future for a while. Some back-channel e-mail has me > convinced that some folks think I write on PW for kicks and recognition, > or some such thing. I've done a lot of wild stuff over the years, and > simply want to share some of these experiences for their lessons sake, > not popularity. Everything I do on the water, is done with a degree of > safety in mind. Even the "open Canadian" canoe my family and I use for > our wilder family times, is a huge stable vessel with a high bow that > cuts up and over most dangerous waves, etc. My posts usually do > injustice to these kind of background considerations. > > I will be lurking far more from now on, and let others have some > bandwidth. I'll post relevant stuff from my log books as I see fit, and > interject only if it is prudent to do. So, here's to lurking for now... > >> > > I know i enjoy Doug's posts and have enjoyed his trip descriptions and have > learned a lot from his other comments, so I would regret his holding back on > sharing his thoughts. So, reconsider, Doug. Hank *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>> << One thing that raised my eyebrows was Norm's conclusion that the land of Oz lacks women sea kayakers because of a lack of sit-on-top kayaks there, which seems a bit naive, if not sexist, to me. >> Oh, dear.....and with apologies to Peter O and our other Ozzie friends, Australian men are not noted for being non-sexist. I believe the notion of "Sheilas" is still very much ingrained. sandy kramer miami >>> Actually, Norm Sanders is a native of the USA -- an entertaining writer, too. I just feel he sometimes generalizes too much from limited observations. Of course, I've never done that! <g> Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dough said << However, I still think Duane's last trip posted on Paddlewise expressed a little less safety reflection than perhaps it should have. Leaving to do long crossings in the afternoon wind, across shipping channels without navigational support and communication, is not the best in seamanship. >> Duane's first lines of his trip report <<Even though we were about to start the most dangerous crossing in Southern California, we were breaking our own rules by disregarding the weather forecast and launching late, which was going to put us in the middle of the thirty-mile channel during the afternoon winds. Never before had I been so scared about a crossing.>> Jim, I didn't think your listing of your preparations was at all boring. I went over and reread the trip report and I agree with Doug, the story lacks really much mention of preparation. When I read the very first sentence of the story it preset me to expect disaster of some kind. Maybe it is the tone of the story and the lack of any real mention of what depth of preparation had been unndertaken. I sincerely believe that if at least some of the details of the prep work had been in the report and the lead hadn't been so ominious reaction would have been substantially more positive. In rereading it with what you posted in mind, I enjoyed the report a lot more. I found I was feeling really bad that you don't make it rather than feeling you shouldn't have tried it, as I did the first time I read it. On top of that I think the video must be just great as long as you didn't take too many pictures of the fog <G>. Thank you for adding to what I knew of the trip. I'd love to hear about your next try. I'm assuming you intend to try again. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<<Thank you for adding to what I knew of the trip. I'd love to hear about your next try. I'm assuming you intend to try again.>> Thanks Joan for your comments. As I told Duane, my next attempt really depends on the ability to commit to another year of a vigorous training schedule not only on the weekend paddles, but also during the week. I was working out 3 to 4 times a week at the gym for 1 to 3 hours at a time, plus the weekend paddles. This requires a huge time commitment and I'm starting to develop a passion for Adventure racing, but I'm still in the "arm chair" stages of that sport. Take care jim gabriel *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Snips > I know i enjoy Doug's posts and have enjoyed his trip descriptions and > have > learned a lot from his other comments, so I would regret his holding back > on > sharing his thoughts. So, reconsider, Doug. Hank > I concur with Hank. I'm still new to Kayaking, and have learned a GREAT deal from Paddlewise. To learn, you need to hear the discussion from many points of view. While Doug's style of Kayaking isn't the norm, it does provide points of view and discussion issues that we wouldn't benefit from if everyone participating shared very similar experiences and points of view. In fact, if that were the case, there really wouldn't be much of anything to discuss, would there? Whether you agree or not with Doug's comments is one thing....learning from them is an entirely other thing, and I would think that even Doug's biggest critics would have to admit (if only to themselves) that they've learned something from the discussions, and would therefore say that his opinions add value - even if the value were simply in reinforcing their own opinions. So, Doug, don't lurk too long -- I still have too much to learn! Rick (....Virginia) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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