In a message dated 11/8/00 7:08:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, dlloyd_at_telus.net writes: << However, I still think Duane's last trip posted on Paddlewise expressed a little less safety reflection than perhaps it should have. Leaving to do long crossings in the afternoon wind, across shipping channels without navigational support and communication, is not the best in seamanship. >> Doug, I really don't know how Jim and I could've been more prepared for this trip. Each of us carried a VHF, GPS, compass, and all of the other standard safety gear. In addition, I carried an EPIRB. We could've use the GPS to determine when we were in the shipping lanes, but we didn't feel the need. We could've used the VHF to talk to the ships, but we didn't feel the need. Our equipment was not issue. The forecasted winds for the 30 mile crossing were 15-20 knots. If the winds had reached 20 knots, we would've been miserable, but we would've made it. In much stronger winds, we could've let ourselves be blown to Santa Rosa Island. Jim and are both proficient rollers, bracers and scullers. I don't know two people in Southern California who practice rescues, including reentry and rolls, more than us. We also play in the surf, while most sea kayakers avoid it. To say we have done a few crossings is an understatement. Both of us have made multiple crossings to Catalina, Anacapa and Santa Cruz Islands before. I also did a lot of research before this trip. Our experience and skills were not an issue. We knew exactly what we were getting into. Should we have been more patient and waited another day before that 30 mile crossing? Probably, but we made our decision there and then, and there is nothing you can do about it afterwards. I think mistakes are made on any trip, and to expect a perfectly executed one is ridiculous. Upon reflection, I think we were a little wimpy about the whole thing. However, we are proud of our achievement. I am aware of a handful of others who did this trip, but they had an escort boat. I am not aware of anyone doing it unescorted, as we did, but I imagine it has been done. Some people may say we were reckless and lucky we made the trip, but Jim and I know otherwise. Sometimes the old timers hate to acknowledge new blood, especially ones with a good story. I can understand how less skilled paddlers would think our trip was crazy. A couple of years ago, I would have thought it was crazy too. Sure we take some risks, but that is what any adventure is about. Our lives have been enriched because of this trip, and we look forward to more. Duane <A HREF="http://hometown.aol.com/pirateseakayaker/fandf.html">Northern Four Channel Islands Crossings</A> *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:39 PM 11/8/2000 -0500, Strosaker_at_aol.com wrote: >Some people may say we were reckless and lucky we made the trip, but Jim and >I know otherwise. Sometimes the old timers hate to acknowledge new blood, >especially ones with a good story. I can understand how less skilled >paddlers would think our trip was crazy. A couple of years ago, I would have >thought it was crazy too. Sure we take some risks, but that is what any >adventure is about. Our lives have been enriched because of this trip, and >we look forward to more. I am certainly not qualified to pass judgement on Duane and Jim's paddling expertise and/or experience level. Reading the many posts that come across PaddleWise gives one a idea of Duane's skill level, but more importantly a hint to the thorough study and sound judgements made in the planning and execution of his trips/crossings. Jim, it's alright to lurk, but share your wealth of experience with us more often! The less experienced on this list, particularly myself, look to others as a source of learning, but also a source of inspiration for what can be accomplished with highly honed skills and experience gained from time on the water. An opinion about the Editor of Sea Kayak Mag. is easy. Quite easy, actually, for me to say that I believe that the editor of Sea Kayak Magazine should not use his position as being the "all knowing - all seeing authority" and make comments about articles submitted and/or rejected by him or the staff of the magazine without qualifying those comments. If I remember correctly, there was an article by a fellow who did the Sea of Cortez that drew a round of criticism because it was his first trip and he did it solo. Many seemed to feel that the magazine was encouraging others to take "crazy" risks. So, if it was Duane's article that was rejected; was it over safety concerns, editorial bias or simply writing style? The editor should share his comments with the person who submitted the article in the form of constructive criticism and not others. Then people would not be left making assumptions about who he was talking about and why. Maybe he is like a lot of other people in the Pacific Northwest who don't like Californians. So, could it be because of that bias on his part that caused the rejection? See what I mean. Fred *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - All postings copyright the author and not to be reproduced/forwarded outside PaddleWise without author's permission Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane, Jim, et al: I've been really confused the last day over how this thread weaved its way, in terms of my input. I just now (6:00 pm west coast time, 00/11/09) found your posts on an unopened PW Digest version while cleaning up a bunch of unopened mail from the kayak sailing list. Sorry, it sounds like I went off shouting my mouth after you had posted responses (one of the reasons I need to back off PW a bit, as I get too tired and mess up too often). Anyway, thank you both for responding even though I missed it at first. The info you provided and the explanations were good reading in their own right. I see others agree (not sure if this falls under "you know who's" definition of PW babble). May I have a moment of your two fine gentleman's time to respond? Duane said: <<<I really don't know how Jim and I could've been more prepared for this trip. Each of us carried a VHF, GPS, compass, and all of the other standard safety gear. In addition, I carried an EPIRB. We could've use the GPS to determine when we were in the shipping lanes, but we didn't feel the need. We could've used the VHF to talk to the ships, but we didn't feel the need. Our equipment was not issue.>>> Yes, I did get confused between your crossing and the "other" crossing that SK rejected, and further confused and muddied the waters by going on to talking about crossings in general, all in the same post which implied serious doubts about your judgment, etc. You know I've always been a good friend to you and supportive of your posts and crossings. Yes, I do have concerns. Crossings are dangerous. I don't care how prepared and well conditioned you are. And they are somewhat of a "stunt". That is one of the reasons people do them, and one of the reasons people advertise their success at them and publish stories about them. But there is nothing wrong with that, long crossings are simply another part of the sport of sea kayaking - and at least you guys are just sailing across! <<<The forecasted winds for the 30 mile crossing were 15-20 knots. If the winds had reached 20 knots, we would've been miserable, but we would've made it. In much stronger winds, we could've let ourselves be blown to Santa Rosa Island.>>> Part of your back-up plan, I'm sure. <<<Jim and are both proficient rollers, bracers and scullers. I don't know two people in Southern California who practice rescues, including reentry and rolls, more than us. We also play in the surf, while most sea kayakers avoid it.>>> I bet there are others Duane, and on other coasts too. As far as crossings: Most of them are probably very private, or even in safety positions of being examples in the kayaking community, so do not write about their exploits. I know some. Some people seem to need recognition, some don't want any. <<<To say we have done a few crossings is an understatement. Both of us have made multiple crossings to Catalina, Anacapa and Santa Cruz Islands before. I also did a lot of research before this trip. Our experience and skills were not an issue. We knew exactly what we were getting into.>>> I was being sarcastic in a friendly way. I should have put _few_ in quotes ("few") to indicate more fully that, yeah, you have done a "few". <<<Should we have been more patient and waited another day before that 30 mile crossing? Probably, but we made our decision there and then, and there is nothing you can do about it afterwards. I think mistakes are made on any trip, and to expect a perfectly executed one is ridiculous. Upon reflection, I think we were a little wimpy about the whole thing.>>> Now you are getting to the heart of the matter. Sometimes "wimpy" equals respect and seamanship. I maintain that sound seamanship and undertaking "dangerous" sea kayaking activities are not mutually exclusive, but, the aspect of appropriate caution is a very subjective issue, and admitadly difficult to delineate. I see Jed alludes to this in an earlier post (I think - I'm still out of sequence here a bit). Jed and others can say what they want to encourage you and Jim, and I can still maintain the right to suggest that staying a bit wimpy is a good thing. If you don't, the sea will teach you anyway as you mature. If others loose respect for me because of this, so be it. I'm not in a popularity contest. If I get too irrelevant, I'll just keep my opinions to myself. I certainly have spoken to folks from California back-channel, who know you, and they all respected your achievements but expressed similar reservations. However, you are free to do as you please, as I and others are. <<<However, we are proud of our achievement. I am aware of a handful of others who did this trip, but they had an escort boat. I am not aware of anyone doing it unescorted, as we did, but I imagine it has been done.>>> You should be VERY proud Duane. No one should take that away from you. But I've never understood this whole thing about "firsts", etc, be it climbing, the blond cheerleader in grade 12 - whatever.. <<<Some people may say we were reckless and lucky we made the trip, but Jim and I know otherwise. Sometimes the old timers hate to acknowledge new blood, especially ones with a good story.>>> If you mean guys like me, you are way off base. This just goes to show anyone who can read between the lines the whole point about ego clouding the issues, or more importantly, the subtext issue of Nature vs man's ego. But I don't want to go there, as these are personal issues we must all work through. <<<I can understand how less skilled paddlers would think our trip was crazy. A couple of years ago, I would have thought it was crazy too. Sure we take some risks, but that is what any adventure is about. Our lives have been enriched because of this trip, and we look forward to more>>> Well, go for it man! You only go around once in life (at least as Duane). Just don't chuck that word crazy around too much, especially if you don't want to done your old flack jacket, you new breed of gung-ho, ranger paddler! :-) And by default your "audience" does include less skilled paddlers. I wrestle with what I say and write in their direct or indirect presence all the time. That was the other point of my post. ------------------------------ Jim said: <<<I've been lurking on this list for a very long time. I rarely see anything that gets me fired up including the thread a few months ago about crossing shipping lanes since many of the people on the list are nothing but "arm chair" paddlers. This is most obvious by reading the posts that speculate about the trip Duane Strosaker and I did implying we had thrown safety to the wind. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY ASININE. YOU ARE UNINFORMED!>>> I'll respond, lest I lurk-away for a while as an ass :-) Then again, go down as more of an ass! You make mention of "all the boring details of the preparation, training and planning we did the full year PRIOR to the trip." I snipped the details. Great stuff, however Jim. Now you ARE getting to the whole point of my original post. I submit to you that the "boring" details are crucial to the story, and lend incredible support and sympathy with respect to anyone reading a more balanced version of the story, that would have included some of these details, rather that the brazen way that Duane presented it. I never said Duane threw caution to the wind, just perhaps miss represented the facts in the opening sentences, which could indeed leave you open to questions about seamanship. You said; "One question, are ANY of you THIS prepared for a trip half as challenging?" Probably not, Jim. But then, you are assuming again. And, as I've been trying to say, Mother Nature is only going to recognize about half your training and preparation. Up here in the colder north, she only recognizes about a quarter. I'll send the list my resent Hypothermia Part Two article, that may help you understand some of my concerns. You also said: "NOW, WASN"T THIS A BORING POST?" No, I enjoyed it. I was kind of hoping my comments would draw Duane out of the woodwork (or is that drag his wet ass out of the surf?) I was also preparred for the flaming from any and all sources, big or small. But little did I think his silent partner would speak up. You must really admire Duane, which I'm sure speaks volumes about the trust and relationship you have as friends, and more importantly, out on the water. I should be so lucky as to find someone I could trust in, who had commensurate skills or better, and was up to the challenges with appropriate reserve when necessary, but had full balls-out 'tude when okay to do so and sounded reliabe when ol' Ma nature has you by the short-hairs. You are a lucky guy, Jim. But to both of you, don't think you are ever above some criticism -- or at least a showing of concern. And more importantly, don't ever dis' the ocean. After 20+ years of hard-core paddling, I at least have the right to say that to you in a friendly, respectful way - making me popular or not. PS E-mail sucks when it comes to all those subltle clues that would normally hint at friendly banter and genuine peer-respect and concern if in person. There are days when I hate Paddlewise. BC'in Ya Doug Lloyd (wimpy mid-forties paddler fading away fast) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > You said; "One question, are ANY of you THIS prepared for a trip half as > challenging?" > > Probably not, Jim. But then, you are assuming again. And, as I've been > trying to say, Mother Nature is only going to recognize about half your > training and preparation. Up here in the colder north, she only > recognizes about a quarter. I'll send the list my recent Hypothermia > Part Two article, that may help you understand some of my concerns. I think you are referring to the one just published in the Chesapeake Paddlers Assoc. newsletter. It is excellent, thoughtful piece. I hope you do post it here as it is timely since a good portion of the North American audience enters cold water paddling conditions. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Duane, Congratulations on your Channel Islands crossing. A great adventure and a good posting. Good luck on the next adventure!!! George *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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