I am a little puzzled by the endless debate over which is more stable in a kayak, sharp or soft chines. To me this is akin to asking whether a race car is faster because it is painted blue or red. It is volume that makes a kayak have stability, not chines. Volume can be displaced arbitrarily according to the designer whims, contributing primary/secondary stability (or lack thereof). Chines, be they round or hard, can indeed affect where the volume is placed, thus affecting stability, but the hardness of the chine has no effect. Okay, since this is Paddlewise, I have to make sure that all possible loopholes in my argument are sealed, or else suffer the consequences, right? :) Loophole #1: All else being equal, if a hard chine boat had its chines rounded off with a grinder sledgehammer or something, then it would have slightly less volume and thus stability would not be the same. But I don't have to be Matt Broze to tell you that a clever designer can get around this issue easily by adding ever so slightly more volume elsewhere. Loophole #2: My arguments are not as solid if the kayak is moving or the water is tilted (e.g. waves). When surfing, hard chines certainly contribute an added element of stability because they resist broaching more than rounded chines. Loophole #3: Some styles of kayaks, be they hard or soft chined, Greenland, British, American, etc, are designed to have certain stability characteristics. This could lead to confusion if one begins to associate the chine design with the stability properties of that particular style. I hope there's not a chink in my armor.... :) Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin wrote: (SNIP) > Loophole #2: My arguments are not as solid if the kayak is moving or the > water is tilted (e.g. waves). When surfing, hard chines certainly > contribute an added element of stability because they resist broaching more > than rounded chines. Round bilge boats can do the same thing. Just depends upon design. Cheers, John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin wrote: (SNIP) > Loophole #2: My arguments are not as solid if the kayak is moving or the > water is tilted (e.g. waves). When surfing, hard chines certainly > contribute an added element of stability because they resist broaching more > than rounded chines. John wrote: >>>>Round bilge boats can do the same thing. Just depends upon design.<<<<< Okay John, I can think of several ways this might be so and still maintain round bilges: Lots of V--or a raised keel or rib (skeg--for you NA's) in the stern quarters, a drop skeg or fixed fin in the stern quarter, a fin keel, stern quarter bilge keels, stern quarter mounted lee boards, a radically fish-form/narrow hull combination, lots of rocker in the forebody only, a stern heavy trim (either through cockpit placement or ballast), and a deep draft or underslung rudder. Were you thinking of any others I missed? While what you said is true, I often get frustrated when you make vague statements like the above without explaining why YOU believe it is so, or giving us any examples that help make your point. I for one, would like to hear how you address this issue. For instance, is there anything you have done on one of your designs, like say the QCC 500, to resist broaching. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt wrote: > >>>>Round bilge boats can do the same thing. Just depends upon design.<<<<< > > Okay John, I can think of several ways this might be so and still maintain > round bilges: Lots of V--or a raised keel or rib (skeg--for you NA's) in the > stern quarters, a drop skeg or fixed fin in the stern quarter, a fin keel, > stern quarter bilge keels, stern quarter mounted lee boards, a radically > fish-form/narrow hull combination, lots of rocker in the forebody only, a > stern heavy trim (either through cockpit placement or ballast), and a deep > draft or underslung rudder. Were you thinking of any others I missed? While > what you said is true, I often get frustrated when you make vague statements > like the above without explaining why YOU believe it is so, or giving us any > examples that help make your point. Matt, thanks for adding the detail. I regret that you get frustrated. > I for one, would like to hear how you > address this issue. For instance, is there anything you have done on one of > your designs, like say the QCC 500, to resist broaching. Matt, you know full well that I refuse and always have refused to discuss my designs on the mailing list or on newsgroups. I do not believe this is the place to do promotional work or thinly veiled advertising. I know others disagree with me but quite frankly, I don't care. I have my principles and I try to stick to them but, not being perfect, I sometime error. When do I apologise. Matt, I sense from your recent posts that you have gotten testy and somewhat personal over my not agreeing with you. Once that happens meaningful dialogue becomes difficult to achieve so, I withdraw from this discussion. Cheers, John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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