Dave, I said: <snip> <<<and lastly (in my book, anyway), they would be out there on the mighty seas for the intrinsic value and fun, in-tune with the limitless ergs of energy -- both exhibiting an enthusiasm that emanates from a desire to experience the ennoblement that nature provides, and also to gain an intense love...>>> Now wasn't that great Qajaqophonia-diarrhea? :-) BTW, I'll be headed down to the Oregon coast in the new year -- just working out the vacation schedual with my employer now. I'd like to hit the Columbia River Bar on a good swell, then do some quieter paddling up-river if you are around Dave - or anyone else. Perhaps even do the other bar (hic-up). Anybody on the list down there, up to hitting the CR Bar or have pointers. I'm thinking March some time. Anybody else want to hit the other bar? I drink a little bit. We could talk Qajaqohone. DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If you can, then try explaining what an expert paddler is. Kirby -----Original Message----- From: John Fereira [SMTP:jaf30_at_cornell.edu] Sent: Friday, December 01, 2000 5:27 AM To: mkircus_at_tenet.edu; Paddlewise, List Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Paddling with beginners At 02:50 PM 11/30/00 -0500, Marilyn Kircus wrote: > > But just saying "this trip is for intermediate paddlers" doesn't not > communicate the problems. And then, no matter now clear you are, you > > will get some people, often yourng guys that are sure they are better > paddlers than they really are. Anyone want to take a stab defining an "intermediate paddler". *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>If you can, then try explaining what an expert paddler is. as I remember Steve Scarborough once writing in Canoe Sport Journal (Volume 2, Number 1 Early Season 1988): [..] "expert is the term for boaters who know exactly what they did wrong as they swim to shore" Dirk Barends http://huizen.dds.nl/~dbarends/cwp.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kirby asked: <<<If you can, then try explaining what an expert paddler is.>>> I hope I'm not impertinent, but...would that be an expert river paddler, expert ocean paddler, surf zone paddler...canoe or wave ski, SOT, outrigger or just what? Or is the "expert paddler" in question a generic paddlesports person we are trying to envision? Maybe an expert paddler is one who has varied experience with respect to _all_ the above paddlecraft. Most of the discussion on PW centers around sea kayaking (and big lakes), so shall I assume that's what we want to question? What exactly is an expert sea paddler? I certainly haven't met many. And I wish I were one. I think I know what one looks like: Nigel Foster seems like an expert sea kayaker. If one wants to rather look at the various specific expressions of paddlesports as we know it, I certainly can think of some great examples. Scott comes to mind, in terms of surf kayaking. Then there is Duane, when it comes to crossings; and Kevin exemplifies the river paddler. Would I call any of these guys experts? Not necessarily. I do have a term for them however: Advanced paddlers. They have "advanced" beyond the scope and realm of the normally well understood term of "intermediate" with respect to what they do. While there are many armchair paddlers on PW, there are also many advanced paddlers that have excelled beyond the merely proficient in there various pursuits. But I bet we are all happy and enjoy our level of participation -- whatever level it happens to be. It is also a big world out there, and PW represents but a minute fraction of paddlers of all levels. Is Don Diamond an expert paddler? Or is he an expert at crossings. What about Ed Gillette. I bet these guys don't consider themselves experts -- just very avid paddlers, who have made a distinguished contribution to the sport of paddling. I'm sure they have advanced skill sets far beyond the norm -- or perhaps just different thresholds for monotony :-) Do we have any experts amongst us? Yes and no. No, I don't consider most of us as expert paddlers, when it comes to actual paddling. Even guys like Kevin have only been at it a few years. Yes, we do have some "experts". Guys like Matt come to mind. His knowledge, experience and understanding of the many aspects of paddling is profound. There are also many specific aspects where certain people stand out in the sport of kayaking: competition paddling within the various disciplines; noteworthy designers and innovators; and those who are of a particular exploratory zeal. Can there be expert "paddlers"? Can there be overall expert paddlers. Well again, it _would_ be hard for me not to agree that Nigel Foster and his ilk are not preponderantly expert paddlers in terms of their particular pursuit of paddling. If I could come up with the attributes of an expert paddler, it would certainly include manifold experience over many decades. Quantity plus quality. I know a few guys like this, but they would submit to you the suggestion that they were simply "experienced" paddlers (perhaps highly experienced) but, not experts. If I were a lawyer involved with a trial involving, say, an ocean kayaking incident, I would call in an "expert witness". Someone with requisite knowledge and experience. Again, someone like Matt or John Winters comes to mind. But I doubt these guys would expand chests at the thought of that. Few "experts" do. I also wouldn't necessarily say that certification guarantees an expert paddler. I've paddled with some of the best, and I'd rather paddle with some of the rest (then again, solo is even better). Someone may be a very "expert" technical paddler, but may have the emotional intelligence of an electric eel. This doesn't bode well in group paddling dynamics, at least. Does an expert paddler have to have excellent leadership skills, or just be an excellent paddler? I do know one thing that overrides my own fascist little mind: A _good paddler_ is always evolving and growing in paddlesports. You have never "arrived". There is always so much more to learn, to experience, to see and do and become. Like the shifting sand on a beach, perceptions and ways of relating to the sport can change from year to year. Once you do become an advanced paddler in your chosen pursuit (something quantifiable for anyone with a bit of common sense), you then spend the rest of your life trying to become an expert -- in a positive, progressive sense. Oh, and group paddling (getting back to group paddling -- the original thread I think)? "Good" paddlers are always sharing their knowledge and concern with and for other paddlers. Even on a social paddle, there are always teachable moments for those with a watchful eye. This can be hard or soft skills, or just a verbal note about some of the flora and fauna around. Life is sharing with an open heart. You don't have to be "Hitlering" or micromanaging anybody in order to share and teach -- where a bit of teaching is wanted or indicated or useful (if not, then you ARE culpable). A paddler aspiring to developing expertise would use opportunities as appropriate to help instill some confidence and skill development into the less-than-perfect intermediate and/or new paddler. This is said without any animosity or specificity to recent posts. I have no settled opinions to advance here either -- just some personal convictions that have washed up on my little bit of beach. It would also take an expert to judge an expert, so who is going to do that. Perhaps that was your point, Mr. Kirby :-) DL (who wrote this Friday, and waited to hit "send" for a few days) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > > Kirby asked: > > <<<If you can, then try explaining what an expert paddler is.>>> > > I hope I'm not impertinent, but...would that be an expert river paddler, > expert ocean paddler, surf zone paddler...canoe or wave ski, SOT, > outrigger or just what? Or is the "expert paddler" in question a > generic paddlesports person we are trying to envision? [megasnip] Nice essay, Doug. Very thoughtful, and thought-provoking, as well. BTW, "accomplished" paddler may be a way to describe those whose accomplishments outshine the exploits of the rest of us. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR unfinished paddler ... not even Varathaned! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger said: Doug Lloyd wrote: > I hope I'm not impertinent, but...would that be an expert river paddler, > expert ocean paddler, surf zone paddler...canoe or wave ski, SOT, > outrigger or just what? Or is the "expert paddler" in question a > generic paddlesports person we are trying to envision? [megasnip] <<<Nice essay, Doug. Very thoughtful, and thought-provoking, as well.>>> Thanks Dave. BTW, one PW paddler in Victoria told me he enjoyed the discussion, while another implied verbal diarrhea (on my part again). You just can't win on this list :-) <<<BTW, "accomplished" paddler may be a way to describe those whose accomplishments outshine the exploits of the rest of us.>>> One thing that may aid the limited discussion we devoted to the topic -- if we can earmark the sea kayaker as the "expert" in question -- would be the type of journeying one does. I would hazard a guess that the "expert", "experienced", "accomplished", and/or "highly advanced" paddler would fall under the heading of a good "expedition" paddler. Semantics aside, xpedition paddling conjures up in my mind, images of a paddler out on a remote wilderness, open-water coastline that is challenging (yet within the paddler's comfort range). This paddler would necessarily have high technical paddling skills equal with their chosen craft; they would have obtained and would be able to utilize wilderness survival and other emergency skills; they would posses the necessary seamanship skills -- including a keen ability to assess sea state values -- both in a predictive fashion and on-going; and lastly (in my book, anyway), they would be out there on the mighty seas for the intrinsic value and fun, in-tune with the limitless ergs of energy -- both exhibiting an enthusiasm that emanates from a desire to experience the ennoblement that nature provides, and also to gain an intense love and deep respect for the ocean -- which in part is key to the survival of our planet. That's my unvarnished view -- be it "doug-crap" or otherwise. DL (who says "in order not to be criticized, say nothing, do nothing, be nothing!") *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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