RE: [Paddlewise] Cockpit Size

Matt, you must be off your medication again, so wrote [:-)] :

Doug wrote:
>>>>>>The ocean cockpit is far superior, bar none, when it comes to
remaining firmly ensconced in your sea kayak -- well, for me anyway.
It obviously decreases the chance for skirt implosion (all things being
equal, which is always, however).<<<<<<<<<

The following quote is from a long letter I wrote Doug way back in 1986.

Same people same arguments, same lack of objective evidence, do opinions

ever change?:

inject>>> (I'll cc the list, for those perturbed enough to read along).
Yes Matt, opinions _do_ change. I can give you dozens of mine that have
been modified over the years, or at least have undergone subtle yet
significant aggregate changes. I can also give you numerous examples of
big-name paddlers and builders who have changed views over the last two
decades (many due to marketplace shifts -- the love of money is the root
of all evi...). I'm sure you have a few of your own too. But the issues
under debate never do. Paddlers still argue about rudders, feathered vs
unfeathered, certification, and yes -- cockpit size.

Objective evidence? Yeah, if you have some "objective" research, fire it
my way. But only if it is objective. Hard stuff to compile on issues of
opinion, but I'm game to see it, refute it, or otherwise agree with it
and step left to the middle ground with those so enlightened. One
important note:  My opening post was thus formulated to draw fire, and I
see guns are ablazing with the usual Broze celerity. Too bad you're
keeping the ammo box back channel; but you are correct, many might find
the minutia a little too much.

I was a little more proactive in my post than usual, having learned the
hard way, and so added the "for me anyway". It's my back-up, and kind of
nulls and voids my over-opinionation. I do humbly apologize however, as
I see a typo error of some significance. I wrote: "(all things being
equal, which is always, however)". That obviously s/b "all things being
equal, which _isn't_ always, however). Large skirts necessitated by
larger cockpits often have more give when it comes to implosion, than
that of a taught-tight skirt that too easily peels off the side coaming
on its smaller cockpit cousin. You can go to the PW stories, and read of
a near serious incident I had way back on the west coast when my
previous Nordkapp's skirt did just that at the most inopportune time
(Murphy's law). Further, large skirts can be had with implosion bars,
not to mention the fact that many of the aspects that render the debate
a bit more mute, include such things as type of cockpit rim, rand style,
heavy vs light gauge elastic perimeter cord, etc., etc. We haven't even
gotten to the issue of paddler seating security yet.

The out-of-context quote that you use above fails to remind readers that
in my post, mention was made of the very important -- and more to the
actual thread topic at the time --  issue of small cockpits giving
security by placing leverage-in potential for the paddler by bringing
the fore deck closer than a big cockpit would allow vs the larger
cockpit leverage-in potential by providing thigh braces; and the very
important objective fact that both achieve successful results depending
on preferences, body physiology, etc., etc. Now where's _your_
objectivity Matt? Obviously though, I didn't flesh out the various
aspects enough for some people.

Now if you are saying that you don't need either security arrangements,
I can't help you there. Sitting in a bare-boned boat with a large
cockpit and no supportive outfitting or the immediacy of fore deck
and/or thigh braces is not my version of seaworthy. Puddle-ready, yeah.
Obviously this is more opinion. I do know my new-to-me van corners
awesomely with my retrofitted suspension and high-performance tires, but
the captain's chair has no lateral support, so I can't utilize the
potential for performance driving. But I'm not going to add bucket seats
all the same. I also draw a fair bit of criticism from fellow paddlers
when I'm out and about on the west coast in an afternoon blow. "You's
crazy boy", they say. I look at their outfitting and can see why they
would say that. If I paddled the boats they were, not fitted-out, I
could see why they wouldn't relate too well to the notion of performance
paddling. But they are happy, sitting on the beach. And yes Matt, the
odd paddler is out there in the rough, with a stock
inadequate-in-my-opinion set-up, and they seem happy. And I'm happy
sitting in my kayak too. If I'm happy paddling, that's all I really care
about in the end, anyway. When I head out to Race Rocks during a big
blow with contra-indicated tides, I do so with confidence (well, what I
can muster). That is also very important, TO ME. I've rolled a few demo
boats at the pool nights, some with large cockpits and little bracing
potential. When you slip out sideways and fail to complete the roll,
that leaves an impression.

My old quote:

"You say: "Obviously, all things being equal, a smaller cockpit
permits the occupant a more secure seating arrangement and
presents less chance for the spray skirt to implode."

inject>> Matt, this must have had something to do with that incident off
Cadboro Bay, no? Didn't you drag this up on PW a while back too? I think
there _was_ some lack of objectivity here, however -- come to think of
it. I was towing the party line for Derek B. at Pacific Canoe Base.
After all, the Ocean Kayaking Association newsletter was a mouthpiece
for his British boat operation. There, I said it. Are you happy now :-).
But I think the paddler that came out of his boat was a fond supporter
of the rival Ocean River Sports and Brian H. Works both ways, you know.
But in reality, he srewed up, as we all do once and awhile (to different
extents). Blaming boats and/or using and incident to foist your views is
a pretty subjective line to take.

You continued:

When
someone says: "Obviously", a red flag goes up in my head and
I brace myself for the big assumption that I am going to be asked
to swallow whole, without so much as a little evidence for
lubrication.  Since all things are not equal, and some of those
things are so much more important than cockpit size, differences
there are rendered meaningless."

inject>> No, not meaningless Matt, just all part of the great equation.
Saying that it "renders [it] meaningless" is an absolute statement Matt.
You should know better, sir, with that educated, scientific mind. You
did the same thing with your rant about spatial requirements and
rolling. Absolute statements if I remember, with anecdotal highlighting
from your own physiology -- yet you left out all those very fine Class V
paddlers for whom "knowing which way is up" to coin a phrase, is part of
their skill/experiece repertoire. But I digress, as is often the case
with a rebuttle. .

You closed:

Those who give a damn about this issue and want to read a long letter
about
the research we did back then regarding cockpit size can e-mail me back
channel and I'll send you the relevant parts and not put the rest of the

Paddlewisers who don't care through another long detailed post of
kayaking
minutia.
Matt Broze   -  http://www.marinerkayaks.com

Matt, I've repeatedly said to this list I'm no expert, just hardcore
within my respective pursuit of ocean kayaking. Why take me so
seriously? No one else does. Having said that, I will leave you with
something _I_ think is objective. Low volume kayaks running heavier
loads with a heavier paddler in rough water (like true sea conditions)
obviously fall under an appeal to an unspecified logic that a large
cockpit just seams out of place. Conversly, a very high volume kayak
relative to the above, appeals to the logic that cockpit size doesn't
really matter. Of course, this could all simply be just myth -- another
urban legend. Happy slaying.

Anyway, please continue to question statements that might lack
virtuosity; but please do so without omitting contextual connections,
even if they are casuals ones or based on simple causerie. I know I find
it difficult to find enlightenment when replies are eclipsed by a
withdrawal to incomplete specifications about what was truly stated.
That _is_ difficult to swallow, at least for me. I'll go back to bed and
my migraine headach now. Love ya Matt :-)

Respectfully,
Doug Lloyd (hey, where's John Winters lately, pulling out stuff from his
tickle box for our list?)


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