Peter Treby said: <I'll try, but first, a warning. I'm an intermediate learner with a long way to go before I should be telling others how to do things. I posted this little theory in order to draw comment from those better able to give advice. Come on in you storm rollers, where are you when I need you?> <snip> Um, out paddling. BTW, most storm rollers don't roll too much in actual storms -- lots of bracing, though. I mean a lot. I get knocked over in rock gardens though, when I usually go over inadvertently to a rogue hitting reflected swell as it refracts around drying reefs. The water is often a marvelous lime green close-in upside-down, however, with lots of bubbles. I've never seen Aerial, her daughter -- nor any other little mermaids though. I see Jed and Rich already answered your query, Peter. If that Jed guy doesn't call himself an expert yet, he can't be too far behind by now! Jed certainly has pushed himself to excel. As far as my input, I don't find it matters a whole lot either. In big surf, you can make a good argument for coming up with a brace into it, but for smaller stuff, I find sometimes it is better to come up on the downwind/down wave side. Sure, you can get knocked over again if your timing is poor or you delay, but that is sometimes better than getting a face full of waves and wind from coming up on the up wave side just as that wave hits your face. Your volume of inhaled water may vary. DL [actually restricting myself to something on topic :-) ] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Treby <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> wrote: > >Now, how do you rationally decide which side to roll up on, in this >situation. You want to come up on the side the weather is coming from, so >as >to get any wind assistance coming up, and to brace into waves... >Rules of thumb for rolling up: >1. When surfing to the left on a wave, set up on the right and roll up on >the left. Conversely, >2. When surfing to the right on a wave, set up on the left and roll up on >the right. >3. When dumped unexpectedly, look up hanging upside down. Waves from the >left, set up on the right. Waves from the right, set up on the left. Or, >set >up on the side away from the wave direction. >4. Aaaah, I'm running out of air fast, roll up desperately on the strong >side as quickly as possible! >Upside down, down under, I've rolled a lot in surf and also while whitewater kayaking. Spatial ability is the ability to manipulate objects in ones mind, keeping track of the twists and turns and rotations. In a pre-college test years ago I could have missed several more answers on the spatial abilities test and still been in the 99th percentile. Many years later my wife to be (a PhD. candidate in Experimental Psychology) who studied such things, gave me another spatial abilities test and said I had the highest score she had ever seen. Apparently it is the thing I do best. I tell you all this as a preface to opting for choice #4. I have read several times that one should roll up one particular way or another on the river or in surf depending on particular factors. I may be off base here or totally blind (because I keep my eyes closed) but I question whether this is something that the authors actually do or is it something they have theorized about and/or just repeated from another source so as not to seem as incompetent as I apparently am in this situation. When caught by surprise and given a tumble in the surf or a river souse hole I can't tell which way is upstream, or up wind, or up wave. I get disoriented and don't want to sit around thinking about it too long under the circumstances (while my sinuses fill up). Maybe if I opened my eyes and looked around on the river I could figure it out first but why wait. I have heard that the swirling sand in a near shore breaker can sear your eyeballs, and have prudently decided I wouldn't test out that possibility (#3)for myself so I keep my eyes closed. I roll up on whatever side I can and if that fails I'll try whatever side looks best from the position I next find myself in. If the wind pushed me back down the way I came up I would try the other side next time (but I have never rolled in that extreme of wind). Since one is quickly moving at the speed of the current once capsized in current I don't see how it makes any difference which side I roll up on then. When in surf there is a big advantage to rolling up "as quickly as possible" as in option #4. I'm usually back upright and sorted out in relatively calm water well before the next breaker has reached me. The more time I have to get pointed in the right direction (and maybe find and reach the lowest pass in the next breaker--if going out) the better. Unrelated topic. Can someone tell me what royalty rate a kayak designer is likely to be paid by a kayak manufacturer these days? Back channel answers gladly accepted. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: > Peter Treby <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> wrote: > > > >Now, how do you rationally decide which side to roll up on, in this > >situation. You want to come up on the side the weather is coming from, so > >as to get any wind assistance coming up, and to brace into waves... > >Rules of thumb for rolling up: > >1. When surfing to the left on a wave, set up on the right and roll up on > >the left. Conversely, > >2. When surfing to the right on a wave, set up on the left and roll up on > >the right. > >3. When dumped unexpectedly, look up hanging upside down. Waves from the > >left, set up on the right. Waves from the right, set up on the left. Or, > >set up on the side away from the wave direction. > >4. Aaaah, I'm running out of air fast, roll up desperately on the strong > >side as quickly as possible! > >Upside down, down under, > > I've rolled a lot in surf and also while whitewater kayaking. Spatial > ability is the ability to manipulate objects in ones mind, keeping track of > the twists and turns and rotations.<snip> > I have read several times that one should roll up one particular way or > another on the river or in surf depending on particular factors. I may be > off base here or totally blind (because I keep my eyes closed) but I > question whether this is something that the authors actually do or is it > something they have theorized about and/or just repeated from another source > so as not to seem as incompetent as I apparently am in this situation. When > caught by surprise and given a tumble in the surf or a river souse hole I > can't tell which way is upstream, or up wind, or up wave. I get disoriented > and don't want to sit around thinking about it too long under the > circumstances (while my sinuses fill up). When in the surf zone (or any steady conditions from a particular direction), I make it a habit of going through the "what ifs", including the direction I would need to roll up in in order to utilize the wave's energy - and thus pre-plan the side I would roll up on if I should find myself on the 100% side of the sea/sky interface. If I take a spill surfing straight down wave and am not broached in a particular direction (hasn't happened to me yet), then theoretically I would try to get a sense of which way the waves are coming from (or the last one has gone), if I'm doing okay on air, and wait for the next one to move over before rolling up. In rolling up on the back of the wave, you're giving yourself the maximum amount of time to maneuver before the next waves strikes. This technique does work in practice on the shorter period wave sets we get around the Mid Atlantic, having surfed straight down storm chop, wound up and rolled under, then hung out to determine which direction the boat has been subtly broached to - then roll up on that side. Having said that, when in doubt or the air runs out, shelve the theories and just roll up on your strong side. Worse that could happen (hopefully) is you'll get picked up by the next wave and rolled over your recovery side, barely having caught a breath before getting trashed again. Depending on you and the waves, there may be no real alternative but to become a "squirming hatch blower" and return to the world of the gill-less. > Maybe if I opened my eyes and > looked around on the river I could figure it out first but why wait. I have > heard that the swirling sand in a near shore breaker can sear your eyeballs, > and have prudently decided I wouldn't test out that possibility (#3)for > myself so I keep my eyes closed. I wouldn't be too keen on trying Peter Treby's #3, either - I feel everything I need to feel with my eyes shut. Only had my eyes open one time in a combat roll situation, and there was no sand for many miles - just a big slab of rock about 15~20 feet away, tons of green water, and the backwash of the wave off the rock below (overhead) - didn't own a helmet at that time. It was a neat sensation to experience in real life, but once was definitely enough. > I roll up on whatever side I can and if > that fails I'll try whatever side looks best from the position I next find > myself in. If the wind pushed me back down the way I came up I would try the > other side next time (but I have never rolled in that extreme of wind). > Since one is quickly moving at the speed of the current once capsized in > current I don't see how it makes any difference which side I roll up on > then. Agreed. I got yelled at during a WW lesson for taking way too much time to set up and roll (as my helmet and shoulders were dredging a new channel), due completely to trying to figure out which side would be best to roll back up on. According to the instructor, I had been moving at current speed for a while and thus didn't matter one bit. > When in surf there is a big advantage to rolling up "as quickly as possible" > as in option #4. I'm usually back upright and sorted out in relatively calm > water well before the next breaker has reached me. The more time I have to > get pointed in the right direction (and maybe find and reach the lowest pass > in the next breaker--if going out) the better. Agreed. If you know you can roll up quickly (whatever side) and be free of anything breaking on you during recover, then go for it! If really unsure about side or wave period, yet comfortable enough hanging out, then wait it out for a round inverted. But that's just me. Also, when I say "hanging out", I do not mean hanging straight upside down waiting to be pile driven into the sand bar. I mean loosen the tuck up a bit (relax the body, but not the grip on the paddle or its wind up position - strong side by default) which will allow you to feel out what it going on around you better. If you're set up on your strong side while inverted but the wave is moving across from the other side, switch your wind-up to that side, wait a few seconds for the next wave and slowly roll up. The wave will help bring you on around so be ready to stall the roll out through the recovery, if need be, to keep from getting re-rolled with the wave, spy the next wave, present a minimal profile to the wind, etc. Thoughts? Vince who couldn't resist dodging work for another chance to stir the pot so much for lurking, huh *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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