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From: Bill Leonhardt <WJLeonhardt_at_bnl.gov>
subject: [Paddlewise] Drysuit socks/booties
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 12:20:39 -0500
Hello fellow paddlers, 

I'm posting this to two lists to maximize the response so my apologies 
up front to those who get this twice. 

I am now in the process of shopping for drysuits for my wife and myself 
and I'd like to invite input regarding options.  My intent is to go for 
Gore-Tex, front closure units with relief zippers, most probably from 
either Kokotat or Stohlquist in high visibility colors. 

Right now I am unsure of the best (for me) choice regarding sewn on 
socks or booties  I know I pretty much want to stay away from just 
having the latex gasket at the ankles and, so, I believe that gives me 
three choices of sock/bootie material: 
A. Latex 
B. Neoprene 
C. Gore-tex  
Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

Before I go shopping, I'd like to get a little more information about 
these choices, so I'm asking folks to let me know what they use and the 
pros and cons they have found with their set-up. I also have questions 
regarding the material itself, for example: 

1. I understand latex socks since I believe them to be just sock shaped 
devices made of the same material as the conventional wrist and ankle 
gaskets.  I would expect that using these socks would involve getting 
them oversized and wearing polypro and wool or pile socks underneath and
a conventional (perhaps oversized) kayaking bootie over.  Is this  
right? 

2. What are neoprene socks (booties?) like.  When I think of neoprene I 
think of what I call conventional kayaking shoes (either high or low) 
made of rather thick neoprene and generally with a rigid sole.  Are the 
drysuit neoprene socks like this?  Would you just wear insulation under 
them and not need to wear anything over them to protect them (like a 
bootie) or are they more like a sock? 

3. I have a pair of SealSkinz socks which I think are probably similar 
to Gore-Tex.  Is this true?  If so, I would expect to use the Gore-Tex 
socks in the same way as the latex.  True? 

So folks, as you can see, I don't know much about dry suit socks. Please
fill in the blanks so I can be a better informed shopper. 

Thanks, 

Bill Leonhardt
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From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Drysuit socks/booties
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:00:45 -0500
Bill Leonhardt wrote:
> 
> Hello fellow paddlers,
> 
> I'm posting this to two lists to maximize the response so my apologies up front to those who get this twice.
> 
> I am now in the process of shopping for drysuits for my wife and myself and I'd like to invite input regarding options. My intent is to go for Gore-Tex, front closure units with relief zippers, most probably from either Kokotat or Stohlquist in high visibility colors.
> 
> Right now I am unsure of the best (for me) choice regarding sewn on socks or booties I know I pretty much want to stay away from just having the latex gasket at the ankles 

After years of struggling with the ankle gaskets, I finally decided to
have socks put on.  I just got the suit back (it needed a neck gasket as
well).  I have yet to use it but clearly socks are better than the ankle
gaskets.  I have found that worse than even the tightest neck one.  Mine
are of latex since that is all that Stohlquist offered me (at least that
is what I was told).

The downside of the latex is that it supposed to be fragile and won't
last long (latex never does).  But, from another listserv, I have heard
from users of latex who indicate that even if it punctures, if you have
your foot in a neoprene bootie, you effectively are keeping out water. 
And so even worn out latex should be reasonably okay.

My choice would have been neoprene if I could have gotten it as it is
tougher and repairable and quite long lasting.  The latex feels cold to
the touch and so I know I will need to wear a good insulation between me
and it as well as, of course, wearing neoprene shoes.  I don't know if
my regular neoprene shoes are big enough for all of that.  I will
experiment soon to see.

ralph
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
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From: jrussell <jrussell_at_pclink.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Drysuit socks/booties
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 14:19:14 -0600
Bill,
I know you weren't asking about this, but when you decide on features 
for your wife's drysuit, she might be interested in the Kokotat drop 
seat.  I have one in mine and it's fantastic!  It provides quick and 
easy relief (there's no graceful way to write this, is there?) People 
warned me that it wouldn't be comfortable for paddling, given the big 
smile of a zipper running around the rear, but it has not been a 
problem. I have never been aware of the zipper paddling (only when I 
get out of the boat and someone asks me what's the deal with my dry 
suit).  The only issue I've had is that the zipper can be tough to 
pull open by myself (and that's been good for laughs too) but I 
suppose that can happen in the front relief zip too....

Jody

>
>From: Bill Leonhardt <WJLeonhardt_at_bnl.gov>
>Subject: [Paddlewise] Drysuit socks/booties
>
>Hello fellow paddlers,
>
>I'm posting this to two lists to maximize the response so my apologies
>up front to those who get this twice.
>
>I am now in the process of shopping for drysuits for my wife and myself
>and I'd like to invite input regarding options.  My intent is to go for
>Gore-Tex, front closure units with relief zippers, most probably from
>either Kokotat or Stohlquist in high visibility colors.
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From: <SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Drysuit socks/booties
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 16:28:07 EST
Hi Bill,
    I received my GTX sock equiped Kokotat suit last spring, just in time for 
the summer.  Since I haven't had the suit all that long, you'll need to frame 
my experience in that perspective. I went through the same kind of research 
before I got my suit and the GTX won.   They are thin, flexible, easy to get 
on and off and (so far,) absolutely water-proof. Since they are light enough 
of a fabric I don't need to buy any additional footwear. I always wear some 
kind of fabric sock beneath mine to protect the GTX from bodily oils, but I 
doubt it is required. The socks come oversized and in a tube-style cut, so 
your foot just slids right in. Pull up the excess while you put on your 
footwear and Ta Da,  Done.
    Any kind of sewn-in sock or booty is subject to puncture or tears but 
there are enough ways to repair if a problem like that surfaces.  The best 
part about any one of these solutions is the ability to keep your feet truely 
dry. I often take a quick swim before the paddle to expell air from inside 
the suit. Much to the chagrin of my non water-proof socked mates, who would 
never do such a thing since they would then have to endure cold/wet feet for 
the rest of the day.
    Best of luck with your choice. Either way it will be hard not to exceed 
the performance of ankle gasketed suits.  Good Luck!

Jed


In a message dated 1/17/01 12:38:02 PM, WJLeonhardt_at_bnl.gov writes:

<< 1. I understand latex socks since I believe them to be just sock shaped 
devices made of the same material as the conventional wrist and ankle 
gaskets.  I would expect that using these socks would involve getting 
them oversized and wearing polypro and wool or pile socks underneath and
a conventional (perhaps oversized) kayaking bootie over.  Is this  
right? 

3. I have a pair of SealSkinz socks which I think are probably similar 
to Gore-Tex.  Is this true?  If so, I would expect to use the Gore-Tex 
socks in the same way as the latex.  True?  >>

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From: <volinjo_at_juno.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Drysuit socks/booties
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2001 23:29:43 -0500
Hi Bill

I tried to respond toyou on the NYCKayker list, but when I switched to
"reply," all that was left of your message was the first line.  But on PW
it was all there.  I really don't understand computers!!!

We both have KoKatat Goretex suits - Bob's is the regular weight and mine
is the lightweight.  I've seen the newer KoKatat suits, and they seem to
a different weight, soemwehere in between.  It's my understanding that
there is now only one weight.  We both have the cordura reinformcements,
which I recommend.  The new suits have more cordura than the oler ones.  

Also, Bob has the relief zipper, and I have the drop seat.  I strongly
recommend the drop seat for Patty.  I've known a few women who had the
relief ziper, but it doesn't seem to have been generally successful.  I
fretted about whether to get the drop seat or not - I was worried about
how watertight it would be and how it would fit into the boat.  Neither
is a problem.  It's very hard to open, and I usually require help - but,
hey, I have clothes on underneath.  (Incidentally, we both wear one
piece, drop seat, polartec longjohns under the drysuits.  That, with
polartec socks and a midweight polypro shirt is usually plenty.

 My intent is to go  for  Gore-Tex, front closure units with relief
zippers, most probably 
> from  either Kokotat or Stohlquist in high visibility colors. 
> 
> Right now I am unsure of the best (for me) choice regarding sewn on 
We also have the latex socks.  Your description of them is pretty good. 
I have a pair of one-size-larger-than-I-usually-wear booties to wear with
the drysuit.  With one pair of polartec socks, feet stay toasty.  And
dry.  And you don't have to deal with tight ankle gaskets.

The neoprene are lighter material than your booties - actually, the
sealskinz socks are probably closer to thte neoprene socks than to the
Gopre-tex, but the socks are heavier.  Again, my understanding is that
the newer KoKatat suits will have only one type of sock - I'm not sure if
it's Goretex or cordura, but it's pretty hefty, but pliable.  Should work
very well.


> socks or booties  I know I pretty much want to stay away from just 
> having the latex gasket at the ankles and, so, I believe that gives 
> me 
> three choices of sock/bootie material: 
> A. Latex 
> B. Neoprene 
> C. Gore-tex  
> Please correct me if I'm wrong. 
> 
> Before I go shopping, I'd like to get a little more information 
> about 
> these choices, so I'm asking folks to let me know what they use and 
> the 
> pros and cons they have found with their set-up. I also have 
> questions 
> regarding the material itself, for example: 
> 
>It's a great investment, though.  I have to admit, that even though I've
accused my druysuit of trying to kill me (latex neck gasket!!!), it's
been a very good investment.And if we remember to put the 5 gallone
windshield washer jugs in the necklines for a few days before the first
wearing of the season, they don't even try too hard to kill us.
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Bill Leonhardt

Joan
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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Drysuit socks/booties
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 20:01:48 -0800
volinjo_at_juno.com wrote:

>  [snip] Again, my understanding is that
> the newer KoKatat suits will have only one type of sock - I'm not sure if
> it's Goretex or cordura, but it's pretty hefty, but pliable.  Should work
> very well.

In response to what Bill L. wrote:

> > socks or booties  I know I pretty much want to stay away from just
> > having the latex gasket at the ankles and, so, I believe that gives me
> > three choices of sock/bootie material:
> > A. Latex
> > B. Neoprene
> > C. Gore-tex
> > Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Gettin' on this thread kinda late (been in Florida ... more later about that),
however:

1. Kokatat will provide booties in any of the three varieties Bill details.

2. The Gore-tex option is a good one.  

I acquired a dry suit from Kokatat so-equipped, and after three outings, I am
convinced the Goretex is the best choice for me.  Durable enough, and feet are
dry dry dry.  Latex and neoprene (if thin) will tear more readily than Goretex,
and are more difficult to repair.  You can get Goretex repair material in kit
form from REI (and others).  Only problem with the Goretex is it tends to bunch
up inside my paddle shoes, so I have to go with a thin sock.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Drysuit socks/booties
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2001 00:03:36 EST
In a message dated 1/27/2001 11:01:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
dkruger_at_pacifier.com writes:


> .  Latex and neoprene (if thin) will tear more readily than Goretex,
> and are more difficult to repair.  

For what it's worth, I've had my neoprene booties in my Kokatat for a few 
years, walking around parking lots and down to put-ins more often than I 
should have, and see no wear on them at all.  My only concern is that they 
are the large size, and I have to wear three pairs of heavy socks to fill 
them up and keep them from ker-flop, ker-flopping all over the place (my shoe 
size is normally 10).  And I've got very small cockpits, so they really fill 
up the foot room with all that volume.  (From a quick check, medium would 
have been a better size for me.)  But I'm still concerned about the relative 
fragility of the neoprene, and would opt for Gore-Tex, as well, if I had the 
need to change the booties.

Jack Martin

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