I am considering buying a smaller 2nd kayak for day trips and light surfing that has no bulkheads and no hatches. Using airbags for floatation and not having hatches appeals to me for a couple of reasons. One, I like the idea of being able to checking the integrity of the floatation easily. I once had a bad experience with a leaking hatch (the hatch itself not just the cover) that started filling up the kayak in the middle of a paddle. The problem was not apparent from a visual inspection. Second, I think I'll get a drier ride without a front hatch. Although I know this depends on the design of each model, the kayaks that I liked from a handling standpoint did not have what I considered "flush" hatches. I have also had problems with hatch cover deterioration so that was just more reason to prefer the hatchless system. What concerns me is that if I like this new kayak as much as I think, then I will want to start using it for overnighter's and weekend trips. My experience with packing says that no matter how "stuffed" the cargo area, there will still be considerable voids between bags. I worry that in a capsize the voids would fill up with water and consequently there would not be enough floatation for a self rescue. Filling up the cargo area with filled dry bags and no air bags strikes me the same as filling up the cargo area in my bulkheaded kayak and not worrying about having the hatch covers on. I know the two situations are not really the same thing, but I just get this "bad" feeling about my dry bags full of gear serving as my floatation. Am I being paranoid about this? Is there some way to be pretty sure that I'll have enough floatation from the dry bags without the air bags a) before buying the kayak ? b) without putting a gear load in the kayak and swamping it to see if it floats when I climb back in ? Will partially inflating an air bag really fill in the smaller spaces between bags? (I know it will help in filling up the larger spaces at the kayak ends or between the bags and the deck) Do I need to have a "web" or strap of some type where the bulkheads would normally be located to make sure bags to not come out? (If I can get it in what keeps it from coming out?). For those of you who have kayaks with no bulkheads, did you find any unexpected problems or benefits from not having the bulkheads. Mark J. Arnold MJAkayaker_at_aol.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi Mark, Glad to see that I'm not the only "hatchless heretic" on this list :) ----- Original Message ----- From: <MJAkayaker_at_aol.com> > I am considering buying a smaller 2nd kayak for day trips and light surfing > that has no bulkheads and no hatches. The Pygmy Arctic Tern 14 is good choice for this if you don't mind building a kit. Great hull for paddling and surfing IMO. Also has a really nifty recessed cockpit rim in the back to lower risk of back injury when punching out through surf. <snip> > My experience with packing says that no matter how "stuffed" the cargo area, > there will still be considerable voids between bags. I worry that in a > capsize the voids would fill up with water and consequently there would not > be enough floatation for a self rescue. > Is there some way to be pretty sure that I'll have enough floatation from the > dry bags without the air bags > a) before buying the kayak ? No, you're not being paranoid. There is a very simple solution that goes by the name of "sea sock". The use of which is *mandatory* in a bulkhead-less boat. Well, mandatory I guess only if you believe in having backup flotation. But keep in mind that 9 out of 10 safety gurus will tell you that backup flotation is mandatory (am I right Matt?). Sea socks have the added benefit of keeping all the dirt, sand, grime, kelp, PB&J, etc... contained in an easily removed and cleaned package. > Will partially inflating an air bag really fill in the smaller spaces between > bags? (I know it will help in filling up the larger spaces at the kayak ends > or between the bags and the deck) > Yes, it will do a pretty good job of this if you are careful in laying it flat on top of all the gear after you have packed in all your bags. This is easier to do in a short boat because your arms don't have to be as long. > Do I need to have a "web" or strap of some type where the bulkheads would > normally be located to make sure bags to not come out? (If I can get it in > what keeps it from coming out?). > The sea sock keeps water from getting inside and floating out your bags. If you are really paranoid, you could glue or better yet glass in some D-rings behind the seat and in front of the footpegs. Then criss-cross a line through the d-rings. > For those of you who have kayaks with no bulkheads, did you find any > unexpected problems or benefits from not having the bulkheads. > Yes, it's much easier to pack bulky or long items such as my dutch oven, didgeridoo, and one-size-fits-all drybag (yes, it's that big). Cheers, Kevin Whilden *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
MJAkayaker_at_aol.com wrote: > > I am considering buying a smaller 2nd kayak for day trips and light surfing > that has no bulkheads and no hatches. Using airbags for floatation and not > having hatches appeals to me for a couple of reasons. [snip] > Do I need to have a "web" or strap of some type where the bulkheads would > normally be located to make sure bags to not come out? (If I can get it in > what keeps it from coming out?). Don't have enough experience on how to pack gear into a hatchless kayak to be very useful there -- Broze and others will respond on that issue, I suspect. However, I use a system to the rear of my cockpit on my unbulkheaded boat to keep stuff entrapped that you might consider: For the rear compartment, I fixed four D-rings, distributed symmetrically around the inside where the bulkhead would normally be. Then I attached one end of a bungie to the first D-ring, and threaded the bungie through the diagonally opposite D-ring, the next adjacent D-ring, and then snap it diagonally to the last D-ring. (The bungie forms a figure "8" with the last leg of the "8" uncompleted.) This arrangement is the last thing I do after "filling" the rear part of the yak with bulky things that will not pass the bungie barrier. Have not swamped the loaded yak to test this, But I think it is secure, because I have surfed the boat empty, with just the airbag back there, and it has never come out in multiple swampings (I am a crummy kayak surfer). For the forward compartment, I fill it with gear (nose down), and then insert my seasock, **with a 2-inch-thick foam bulkhead inside it,** into the cockpit. The foam bulkhead is sized so it jams firmly against the inside of the hull, up against the footpedals. Again, have not tested this with gear up front. However, it has never dislodged when surfing the boat empty (airbag up front, of course). I bet others who do extended touring in unbulkheaded kayaks use sea socks. They have the main advantage of minimizing pumpout if you have to wet exit, but also allow good isolation of gear fore and aft of the cockpit. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 1/15/01 4:20 PM, Dave Kruger at dkruger_at_pacifier.com wrote: Snip > For the forward compartment, I fill it with gear (nose down), and then insert > my seasock, **with a 2-inch-thick foam bulkhead inside it,** into the cockpit. > The foam bulkhead is sized so it jams firmly against the inside of the hull, > up > against the footpedals. Again, have not tested this with gear up front. > However, it has never dislodged when surfing the boat empty (airbag up front, > of course). > > I bet others who do extended touring in unbulkheaded kayaks use sea socks. snip Dave, I use a sea sock in my skin boat. I use the same method you describe with a 3 inch thick foam bulkhead inside the sea sock to hold the sea sock off my feet and legs. To make the bulkhead the right size I first made a template out of cardboard to match the shape of the area right in front of the footrests, then traced onto the foam and then cut it out. For floatation I have bow and stern double-chambered float bags. Gear goes in the lower chamber then you blow air into the upper chamber to fill the space above the gear to keep the gear against the hull. Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rex, where did you get the double chambered float bags? Ralph Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/16/01 1:41:10 AM, rexrob_at_mac.com writes: << For floatation I have bow and stern double-chambered float bags. Gear goes in the lower chamber then you blow air into the upper chamber to fill the space above the gear to keep the gear against the hull. >> Where did you find bags like this? I can only find the Seattle tapers and they are small. Joan Spinner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
on 1/16/01 4:56 AM, JSpinner_at_aol.com at JSpinner_at_aol.com wrote: > Where did you find bags like this? I can only find the Seattle tapers and > they are small. Mine were made by Corey Freedman (Spirit Line Kayaks) in Anacortes, Washington. His phone number is 360-299-0804. His web site is at www.skinboats.com but seems to be partly out of order tonight. I could only get one page to come up. Does anyone know of any other companies that make double chambered float bags for sea kayaks? These are large, tapered bags that fill the kayak except for the cockpit area of course. The lower chamber is for gear and the upper chamber is inflated to fill the area above the gear and keep it in place against the hull. Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>I am considering buying a smaller 2nd kayak for day trips and light surfing >that has no bulkheads and no hatches. A potential problem. > I worry that in a capsize the voids would fill up with water and > consequently there would not be enough floatation for a self rescue. Correct. >Am I being paranoid about this? No. >Is there some way to be pretty sure that I'll have enough floatation from the >dry bags without the air bags Take it the answer as no. >Will partially inflating an air bag really fill in the smaller spaces between >bags? No. >For those of you who have kayaks with no bulkheads, did you find any >unexpected problems or benefits from not having the bulkheads. A few years ago we had a trip where one of the paddlers had a full kayak but no bulkheads. In the sea conditions experienced, when he capsized, they were unable to pump the hull and abandoned it, taking the paddler to shore on the back of one of the other kayaks. So, from bitter experience, our Network does not allow non-bulkhead kayaks on its trips. A suitably strong sea-sock might have been the answer however we simply ban kayaks without two bulkheads from our organised trips. It is unfortunate that so many plastic kayaks have such excessively large cockpits (aft bulkhead so far aft) but we tend to get stuck with poor design. At least when building a wooden boat you have control over bulkhead placement. Now if you talk folding boats...... Alex . . Alex (Sandy) Ferguson Chemistry Department University of Canterbury New Zealand *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have a Wilderness Systems Arctic Hawk SS <no hatches> and use it occasionally for overnighters. The airbags will do little in filling the gaps between your packed drybags. They will fill the large voids as you assumed. I have purposely swampped the Hawk with the full weekender load and it was a bit of a challenge re-entering and rolling as there was about 25-30 gallons of water in the boat. While it was a bit of challenge, it was doable. I pumped it dry in under 7 minutes. If you are in doubt you could always outfit the boat with a sea sock. I don't like the extra bulk of a sock, both around the combing and in the cockpit. JMHO. I suppose that some strap or lacing system would secure your cargo. My load stayed intact w/o a securing system. Advantages to no bulkhead/hatches: clean, dry deck, light weight, big gear capacity. Steve Scherrer Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe N 45º 39' 47" 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122º 36' 16" Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net ----- Original Message ----- From: <MJAkayaker_at_aol.com> To: <Paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 2:55 PM Subject: [Paddlewise] No bulkheads ??? > I am considering buying a smaller 2nd kayak for day trips and light surfing > that has no bulkheads and no hatches. Using airbags for floatation and not > having hatches appeals to me for a couple of reasons. One, I like the idea of > being able to checking the integrity of the floatation easily. I once had a > bad experience with a leaking hatch (the hatch itself not just the cover) > that started filling up the kayak in the middle of a paddle. The problem was > not apparent from a visual inspection. Second, I think I'll get a drier ride > without a front hatch. Although I know this depends on the design of each > model, the kayaks that I liked from a handling standpoint did not have what I > considered "flush" hatches. I have also had problems with hatch cover > deterioration so that was just more reason to prefer the hatchless system. > > What concerns me is that if I like this new kayak as much as I think, then I > will want to start using it for overnighter's and weekend trips. My > experience with packing says that no matter how "stuffed" the cargo area, > there will still be considerable voids between bags. I worry that in a > capsize the voids would fill up with water and consequently there would not > be enough floatation for a self rescue. Filling up the cargo area with > filled dry bags and no air bags strikes me the same as filling up the cargo > area in my bulkheaded kayak and not worrying about having the hatch covers > on. I know the two situations are not really the same thing, but I just get > this "bad" feeling about my dry bags full of gear serving as my floatation. > > Am I being paranoid about this? > > Is there some way to be pretty sure that I'll have enough floatation from the > dry bags without the air bags > a) before buying the kayak ? > b) without putting a gear load in the kayak and swamping it to see if it > floats when I climb back in ? > > Will partially inflating an air bag really fill in the smaller spaces between > bags? (I know it will help in filling up the larger spaces at the kayak ends > or between the bags and the deck) > > Do I need to have a "web" or strap of some type where the bulkheads would > normally be located to make sure bags to not come out? (If I can get it in > what keeps it from coming out?). > > For those of you who have kayaks with no bulkheads, did you find any > unexpected problems or benefits from not having the bulkheads. > > > Mark J. Arnold > MJAkayaker_at_aol.com > > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 1/15/01 5:56:13 PM Central Standard Time, aldercreek_at_qwest.net (Steve) writes: > I have purposely swampped the Hawk with the full weekender load > and it was a bit of a challenge re-entering and rolling as there was about > 25-30 gallons of water in the boat. While it was a bit of challenge, it was > doable. Steve, how does this compare with swamping and pumping out some of you bulkheaded boats? I know a direct comparision is not exactly fair since the cockpit volumes are different in different kayaks, but I would like to get and idea if it was double, triple, etc of what you would expect for a kayak with bulkheads. I am pretty sure that I will get a sea-sock if I go the hatchless method. I am just not sure if I can stand using it down here in the summer. Mark J. Arnold *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark, I have been able to R&R in a bulkheaded boat w/o picking up quite as much H2O. Maybe 1/3 less water than in the Hawk. The thing to consider with any boat and gear is do the conditions and my ability warrent the use of a sea sock (or any safety gear for that matter) I have a very reliable roll and paddle in quite rough conditions w/o a sock. Especially in the summer, in mild conditions, I think paddling w/o a sock is acceptable. Never w/o flotation, though! =:-o) good luck. steve Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe N 45º 39' 47" 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122º 36' 16" Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net > In a message dated 1/15/01 5:56:13 PM Central Standard Time, > aldercreek_at_qwest.net (Steve) writes: > > > > I have purposely swampped the Hawk with the full weekender load > > and it was a bit of a challenge re-entering and rolling as there was about > > 25-30 gallons of water in the boat. While it was a bit of challenge, it was > > doable. > > Steve, how does this compare with swamping and pumping out some of you > bulkheaded boats? I know a direct comparision is not exactly fair since the > cockpit volumes are different in different kayaks, but I would like to get > and idea if it was double, triple, etc of what you would expect for a kayak > with bulkheads. > > I am pretty sure that I will get a sea-sock if I go the hatchless method. I > am just not sure if I can stand using it down here in the summer. > > Mark J. Arnold > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Yes, you are right to be concerned whether dry bags with camping gear is enough flotation. In my experience: 1) In principle, multiple small dry bags with gear do provide reasonable flotation for the space they occupy (assuming they aren't filled only with iron fry pans and canned beans). 2) The 'empty' space between a number of typical flat or round dry bags is significant, enough so that if filled with water in a capsize, it will noticeably decrease flotation. I'd guess 30% of your "bulkhead" volume would be water in a complete capsize. You'll float, but lower, with more water that will be harder to drain. The combination could be a problem in a marginal rescue situation under dicey conditions. 3) There is a tradeoff: the more you fill the dry bags with air (along with the gear) to increase flotation, the more you compromise their ability to squish together and eliminate the 'empty' space. 4) The solution is to use one large, tapered drybag with an inflation tube (Voyager at Mad River Canoe sells them among others). Basically, these are flotation bags which can be filled with gear, closed through a roll, zip or clip mechanism, inserted into the ends of the kayak, and then inflated via the tube to fill the space, much like a standard flotation bag. If the bag holds air, you have got more or less the same setup as a bulkheaded kayak. 5) One vulnerability is indicated by the phrase "if the bag holds air". A flotation dry bag is susceptible to tears and punctures (sliding past footbraces, ends of bolts, etc.) and leaks (the closing mechanism or the tube). Personally, when loading a bulkheaded kayak, I put most gear into dry bags as a back up for flotation...and to keep my food and clothes dry in case of a leak. Seems to me this is all the more necessary when loading a drybag through the cockpit. 6) Yes, straps to lock in the flotation bags are essential. In a capsize, watching the bags pop loose is a real possibility. 7) Other disadvantages of no hatches are the hassle stuffing and retrieving small bags (if you go that route) at the ends of the kayak, and difficulty accessing gear if you need something on the water or during a beach pit stop. 8) This setup should work, but there is nothing like direct experimentation. So load up your new kayak and go capsize. We all should try self- and assisted-rescues with our kayak loaded for camping under controlled conditions, whatever our setup, so we can work out how to handle it when it happens for real. Scott Camlin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
No problem. Use a few big watertight gear bags that fit the kayak well. Pack them in tight. I actually squeeze out all the extra air in the gear bags so they look vacuum packed. I can cram in more stuff that way. I often "compact" the load by pushing the bags forward with my feet. Using big bags (with most kayaks) the foot pedals will keep the bags from coming out. You can remove or stagger the footpedals when loading to get the bags in place. The seat usually keeps the stern load from coming out. This system might even give you more buoyancy than a bulkhead because you can't easily load right back to your footpedals with a bulkhead. A Seasock makes this into one of the most buoyant systems. There is a lot more information about this in the "Flotation" manual on our website. Sounds like you have seen some of the same problems I have with bulkheads (mostly with the hatches they require). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com original post: >>>>>>Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:55:38 EST From: MJAkayaker_at_aol.com Subject: [Paddlewise] No bulkheads ??? I am considering buying a smaller 2nd kayak for day trips and light surfing that has no bulkheads and no hatches. Using airbags for floatation and not having hatches appeals to me for a couple of reasons. One, I like the idea of being able to checking the integrity of the floatation easily. I once had a bad experience with a leaking hatch (the hatch itself not just the cover) that started filling up the kayak in the middle of a paddle. The problem was not apparent from a visual inspection. Second, I think I'll get a drier ride without a front hatch. Although I know this depends on the design of each model, the kayaks that I liked from a handling standpoint did not have what I considered "flush" hatches. I have also had problems with hatch cover deterioration so that was just more reason to prefer the hatchless system. What concerns me is that if I like this new kayak as much as I think, then I will want to start using it for overnighter's and weekend trips. My experience with packing says that no matter how "stuffed" the cargo area, there will still be considerable voids between bags. I worry that in a capsize the voids would fill up with water and consequently there would not be enough floatation for a self rescue. Filling up the cargo area with filled dry bags and no air bags strikes me the same as filling up the cargo area in my bulkheaded kayak and not worrying about having the hatch covers on. I know the two situations are not really the same thing, but I just get this "bad" feeling about my dry bags full of gear serving as my floatation. Am I being paranoid about this? Is there some way to be pretty sure that I'll have enough floatation from the dry bags without the air bags a) before buying the kayak ? b) without putting a gear load in the kayak and swamping it to see if it floats when I climb back in ? Will partially inflating an air bag really fill in the smaller spaces between bags? (I know it will help in filling up the larger spaces at the kayak ends or between the bags and the deck) Do I need to have a "web" or strap of some type where the bulkheads would normally be located to make sure bags to not come out? (If I can get it in what keeps it from coming out?).<<<<<<< *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I paddled the Necky Swallow, no bulkheads, for about four years. Plusses were that I could fit a 2-burner Coleman stove inside. There were lots of minuses. For floatation I used the biggest float bags I could find, and a sea sock. The sea sock worked great. When camping I would use dry bags for the gear etc, and float bags to fill the rest of the space. I did take a surf lesson in it once. Before I got the sea sock. Big mistake. When that boat filled with water, even with strapped in float bags, it was VERY heavy and hard to drag around in the surf. Barbara in Moss Beach California *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:20 PDT