Silly question: I was of the understanding that wetsuits should be worn next to the skin with no intervening layers, and that additional cold weather clothing should be worn over it. Some one suggested to me that polypro long underwear could be worn under the wetsuit, and was better than wearing it over a wetsuit. Which is better? Thanks for tolerating this silliness. BTW, just finished Gronseth and Broze's "Deep Trouble". I think I will pretty much not kayak in the Puget Sound area during the winter... It seems to, well, suck. It seems like there are a lot of dangerous experiences there. Is this something more widespread, or is it related to the high numbers of kayakers up there? Ken Schroeter Laconia, NH *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ken Schroeter wrote: > > Silly question: I was of the understanding that wetsuits should be worn next > to the skin with no intervening layers, and that additional cold weather > clothing should be worn over it. Some one suggested to me that polypro long > underwear could be worn under the wetsuit, and was better than wearing it > over a wetsuit. > > Which is better? Both work. If there is room under the rubber, insulation there will be more effective, inasmuch as fleece outside the rubber will carry water exposed to air and you will lose heat through evaporative cooling. If there is not room under the rubber, then probably outside is better, because the fleece may be too compressed to trap water. Basically, OTBE, the greater the total thickness, the better off you are. Try your fleece both ways and report back, OK? > BTW, just finished Gronseth and Broze's "Deep Trouble". I think I will > pretty much not kayak in the Puget Sound area during the winter... It seems > to, well, suck. It seems like there are a lot of dangerous experiences > there. Is this something more widespread, or is it related to the high > numbers of kayakers up there? I bet you are actually referring to the San Juans, not "Puget Sound," because the greatest proportion of "incidents" in Puget Sound in DT are in the San Juans. Reason for the seemingly greater number of incidents? Maybe high numbers, and maybe a high proportion of folks who are relatively new to the sport. To be fair, other popular places I have paddled, such as Barkley Sound, also have a very high proportion of newer paddlers. However, Barkley Sound (Brokens, anyway) is "tamer" and it is tougher to get into trouble. Others with more experience in the San Juans may have a better handle on this. Matt Broze? -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> Silly question: I was of the understanding that wetsuits should be worn next > to the skin with no intervening layers, and that additional cold weather > clothing should be worn over it. Some one suggested to me that polypro long > underwear could be worn under the wetsuit, and was better than wearing it > over a wetsuit. Ideally yes, the wetsuit should be next to the skin. If you are a diver I would definitely advocate this, because the idea of a wetsuit is to trap a layer of water beneath it so it does not circulate and the body heat warms up just that small amount. Allowing some sort of channel for the water to wick through would move heat away rapidly. Mostly I do this as a paddler but on occasion I will wear a VERY thin capilene shirt beneath it. Sort of a rash guard. The rationale for this is that I will not be totally and continually immersed, so a large degree of water transport won't occur. I imagine, though, that if I had to spend some time in cold water (lost contact with the boat, or something like that...) that this could nonetheless be a negative thing. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/22/2001 10:08:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenschroeter_at_hotmail.com writes: > Silly question: I was of the understanding that wetsuits should be worn next > to the skin with no intervening layers, and that additional cold weather > clothing should be worn over it. Some one suggested to me that polypro long > underwear could be worn under the wetsuit, and was better than wearing it > over a wetsuit. > > Which is better? > Joe's response seems to be the standard answer --- you want some water next to the skin, but as little volume of water to heat as possible, and as little circulation, or "flushing" as possible. To the question of warming layers OVER the wetsuit, sure: there is some value in insulation over the suit, assuming you're talking dry state. The desired state. But if you swim this outfit, the fleece, or whatever you are wearing on top of the neoprene, is going to function best as a sea anchor, and will provide absolutely no warmth. Just a clarification in case anyone thought that Polartec over neoprene would add insulation during a swim. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com >> > > Silly question: I was of the understanding that wetsuits should be worn next > > to the skin with no intervening layers, and that additional cold weather > > clothing should be worn over it. Some one suggested to me that polypro long > > underwear could be worn under the wetsuit, and was better than wearing it > > over a wetsuit. > > > > Which is better? > > > > Joe's response seems to be the standard answer --- you want some water next > to the skin, but as little volume of water to heat as possible, and as little > circulation, or "flushing" as possible. To the question of warming layers > OVER the wetsuit, sure: there is some value in insulation over the suit, > assuming you're talking dry state. The desired state. But if you swim this > outfit, the fleece, or whatever you are wearing on top of the neoprene, is > going to function best as a sea anchor, and will provide absolutely no > warmth. Just a clarification in case anyone thought that Polartec over > neoprene would add insulation during a swim. Several points. When I have worn a wet suit, really just a farmer john type, I have found that wearing a polypro long sleeve top under the upper portion of the suit was of some benefit. This was partly as a rash guard as mentioned by Joe and also as a bit more insulation both when over the water and in it. The over the water warmth is self-evident; the in the water not so self evident but worked. However, the latter only works if the suit is fairly tight and the thin layer of polypro just fit under it. The water does not not flush readily through the polypro because the neoprene won't let it. As for insulation over the neoprene, it is true that you wouldn't get much insulation if you then had nothing above that extra insulation level to keep water from flushing in and out of that insulation. But if you had a waterproof jacket over all of that and a PFD on top of it, then water flushing would be reduced and the over the neoprene insulation would work to a degree particularly in the body core area covered by the PFD. If you doubt that insulation under a paddle jacket offers no warmth in the water, venture out on some day with water in the high 50s and try the paddle jacket with just thin capilene underneath it; then repeat the test with say synchilla or polarfleece. The synchilla or polarfleece won't be as good an insulation as on dry land but it will have some insulation value. Nor will the synchilla/polarfleece be as good as watersports fleece, but it would have some insulation value. If one is going to mix or add layers of insulation, one would best off going for any of the dedicated watersports fleece. You could wear the thin stuff available from Rapidstyle (I forget its name but it is a watersports polypro; I have a top of this fabric and it works) under your neoprene farmer john. Over that wear a short sleeve or long sleeve watersports polyester fleece marketed under various names. Then wear a jacket over that. As for soaked insulation acting as a sea anchor, that is not true while you are totally immersed. Water pressure acts pretty much the same while in the water wether you are in swimming trunks or wearing fleece. Where the soaked insulation will inhibit your movement dangerously is when you try to climb up out of the water on to your boat. Then you will feel like you are wearing cement. Thanks for the info on that new material being tested by the SEALs. I have every confident that within the next 10 years there will be a jumpsuit of a material that would see you from land to 45 degree water and back out again without a hitch. You could even go for dinner in still wearing it. Some of the watersport fleece has come close to this. I have one from ONeill with a proprietary fleece not the normal Madden Mills stuff that could do just about that. I wore it during a two hour drive, paddle trip (immersing the lower half) and back out again to go to a late lunch with friends after giving a formal talk. And then back home the two hour drive. All the time wearing and not taking off that suit. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:56 AM 2/23/01 -0500, ralph diaz wrote: >From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com > >> > > > Silly question: I was of the understanding that wetsuits should be worn >next > > > to the skin with no intervening layers, and that additional cold weather > > > clothing should be worn over it. Some one suggested to me that polypro >long > > > underwear could be worn under the wetsuit, and was better than wearing >it > > > over a wetsuit. > > > > > > Which is better? > > > > > > > Joe's response seems to be the standard answer --- you want some water >next > > to the skin, but as little volume of water to heat as possible, and as >little > > circulation, or "flushing" as possible. To the question of warming layers > > OVER the wetsuit, sure: there is some value in insulation over the suit, > > assuming you're talking dry state. The desired state. But if you swim >this > > outfit, the fleece, or whatever you are wearing on top of the neoprene, is > > going to function best as a sea anchor, and will provide absolutely no > > warmth. Just a clarification in case anyone thought that Polartec over > > neoprene would add insulation during a swim. > >Several points. When I have worn a wet suit, really just a farmer john >type, I have found that wearing a polypro long sleeve top under the upper >portion of the suit was of some benefit. This was partly as a rash guard as >mentioned by Joe and also as a bit more insulation both when over the water >and in it. When I wear a wet suit top I usually wear a long sleeve silk top underneath (Eddie Bauer carries them). It's extremely thin, works as a layer to prevent abrasion, and besides, wearing silk makes me feel pretty. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> To the question of warming layers > OVER the wetsuit, sure: there is some value in insulation over the suit, > assuming you're talking dry state. The desired state. But if you swim this > outfit, the fleece, or whatever you are wearing on top of the neoprene, is > going to function best as a sea anchor, and will provide absolutely no > warmth. Just a clarification in case anyone thought that Polartec over > neoprene would add insulation during a swim. No, clearly it won't. And yes, for dry conditions a wetsuit is not enough thermal insulation. However, Polar Fleece (whichever flavor) has fibers that don't absorb water. Even if wet, there is some thermal insulation properties. Once back above water, wringing the water out and putting the garment back on still keeps some heat in.... So long as wool has lanolin still incorporated in it, then its fibers also don't absorb water. That is the main reason it works so well in winter conditions. I've never had poly act as a sea anchor if I'm in the water. Colder yes, because some water flows through but not near as much as would flow over me were there to be nothing. Water drips out rapidly so I can move my arms well. What Has been a sea anchor is any paddling jacket over this. Especially if the sleeves are closed at the wrists. You're moving pounds of water for a short swimming stroke. I peel open any velcro or zippers to get that water out as soom as I can. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ken Schroeter, Laconia, NH wrote: >BTW, just finished Gronseth and Broze's "Deep Trouble". I think I will > pretty much not kayak in the Puget Sound area during the winter... It seems > to, well, suck. It seems like there are a lot of dangerous experiences > there. Is this something more widespread, or is it related to the high > numbers of kayakers up there? Yes, the NW is dangerous beyond belief. Nobody should paddle here at all, especially in Puget Sound and the San Juan Islands. There, that should cut down some on the competition for campsites (that have existed for decades but lately have been advertised nationally as a "watertrail"). Dare I mention it rains all summer here too. Actually, most of the stories I wrote for Sea Kayaker (that were collected in "Deep Trouble") were written from 1984 through 1987. Back then there wasn't a lot of kayaking done in most of the rest of the country but it was already becoming quite popular in WA and BC. The fact that George and I both live in Seattle and Sea Kayaker's editors were in Vancouver, BC would mean we were more likely to hear about and be able to more easily research local accidents. This has probably had something to do with this "Puget Sound/San Juan/Bermuda Triangle" syndrome as well. The strong reversing currents and the 45 to 55 degree F. water in the San Juan Islands also often played a part especially when the wind is moving the opposite way from the water. Fall and winter windstorms and "arctic outbreaks" (winds caused by cold air pouring over mountain passes) seemed to be a recurring theme in the articles as well. Also many of the early paddlers in other parts of the country paddled solo (often for lack of knowing anyone else who kayaked) and so when they had an accident there was not only no one to help them survive and there was less likely to be any witnesses to report what happened. I agreed to write the safety column for Sea Kayaker partly as the result of horrendously bad reporting on an sea kayaking accident on Lake Winnapasaukee, (probably your regular paddling area) in New Hampshire, that was written by a kayak dealer with an axe to grind. In that solo accident report the author's wild (and even impossible) speculations were often treated as facts by the readers of many club publications around the country and in Canada that printed it. Among other things the author speculated that the accident happened in an area downwind from where the kayak was found. While this is virtually impossible it allowed the author to further speculate that the paddler was in an area that may have had surf conditions in what had been one of the strongest storms in decades and that he might have been forcibly ejected from his larger sized cockpit (larger, that is, than the cockpits in the kayaks the author promoted) while doing and ender in this (maybe) surf (the author didn't really even know if surf conditions capable of endering a kayak existed in the impossible area of speculation or not). While the author mentioned the larger cockpit in the victims kayak as the probable cause four or five times in his fantasy based speculations he never mentioned the facts he knew about such as the 1/2 bottle of Tequila found with the kayak or the .12 blood alcohol level of the victims body. With that as my example, I was most careful not to speculate on what happened in any fatal accident without pretty strong evidence to back up my theories. Evidence is often very hard to come by in solo fatal accidents. So the accident reports in "Deep Trouble" are probably quite skewed in favor of close calls rather than fatalities. So much more can be learned from first hand reports. Also, survivors and their friends and families are a lot easier to talk to and much easier to write about. I hated writing about fatalities. This was one of the reasons I quit writing a regular column in Sea Kayaker after the last two columns I did both concerned fatalities. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net> wrote: > Yes, the NW is dangerous beyond belief. Nobody should paddle here at all, > especially in Puget Sound and the San Juan Islands. .... Dare I > mention it rains all summer here too. > ... As Matt notes, we have cold water, dangerous currents, and too much rain. But he forgot to mention the earthquakes. Lots of falling debris, buckling ferry ramps, Tsunamis, etc. Life is precious. Please paddle somewhere else. :-) (I hear that Maine is nice.) Dan Hagen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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