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From: Wayne Smith <wsmith_at_cts.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:45:47 -0800
I would like to expand my fleet to include an all purpose White Water / Surf
boat.

Any reccomendations??

I am 6'2" - 200# A bit long of leg (Inseam = 32") - Beginner-Intermediate
paddler.  Would like to learn to roll..

Would like to find a boat that fits most criteria...

Wayne Smith

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From: <kayakbound_at_att.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:14:44 +0000
Dan

I'm 5'10.25" >>g<< , 210# and have an inseam of 31".  
For my whitewaterin' thrills, I paddle a Dagger 
Redline.  It's a great playboat, nice lines, and handles 
the heavy and middle weights with ease!  If you have a 
roll, it's no more difficult [or easier] than any other 
WW boat.  As far as your inseam is concerned, the seat 
is adjustable to accomodate the 32".  If you get a 
chance, give the Redline a paddle.  I think you'll be 
pleased!

Good luck and safe paddlin'!

Jim Tynan
Pike Road, AL
> I would like to expand my fleet to include an all purpose White Water / Surf
> boat.
> 
> Any reccomendations??
> 
> I am 6'2" - 200# A bit long of leg (Inseam = 32") - Beginner-Intermediate
> paddler.  Would like to learn to roll..
> 
> Would like to find a boat that fits most criteria...
> 
> Wayne Smith
> 
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From: Kirk Olsen <kolsen_at_imagelan.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:01:33 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Wayne Smith wrote:

> I would like to expand my fleet to include an all purpose White Water / Surf
> boat.
> 
> Any reccomendations??

I went through a similar search.  The Necky Jive was highly recommended as
a boat that did a good job at both ocean surfing and whitewater.
I'm 170, 6', 33" inseam and fit easily.  I can't verify how good it is since
I've only used it for rolling practice.
 
> I am 6'2" - 200# A bit long of leg (Inseam = 32") - Beginner-Intermediate
> paddler.  Would like to learn to roll..
> 
> Would like to find a boat that fits most criteria...

Another option is one of the new playboats.  They aren't as good for running
whitewater but are great for playing games on waves or destination play 
spots.  During pool sessions the "good" playboaters paddle across the pool,
submerge the bow and balance the boat at about a 70 degree angle with the
stern in the air, then with a quick motion, cartwheel and stand the boat
on the stern.  I squeezed into a Wavesport XXX last week and am now lusting
after a playboat.

Someone else suggested the Dagger Redline, you are sized well for that boat,
I found it a bit awkward to roll and think something with hard chines would
be preferable for ocean surfing.  But what do I know I've only used my 
"whitewater" boat to roll....

kirk
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From: Joe Federici <fedo_at_hudsonet.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:36:59 -0500
>Another option is one of the new playboats.  They aren't as good for running
>whitewater but are great for playing games on waves or destination play
>spots.

The problem with the newer play boats like the EZ, AMP, XXX, and 
other shorter boats around 6.5 to 7 feet on the Ocean is they have NO 
hull speed  and are slow. They work fine at the local play spot where 
your catching the wave from an eddy  but doing it on the move 
requires hull speed. That's why surfers need jet skies to get on the 
really big stuff. They need to match the speed of the wave. You'll 
notice when looking at the top, top  shelf surf boat like the Mako's 
http://www.customkayak.com/html/mako_surf_kayaks.html
They're all longer then 8 feet. So Depending on the size of the waves 
your going to be surfing the play boats can work great for spins with 
there flat bottoms and hard edges but may require harder paddling to 
get on the waves. My choice would be something with a flat bottom but 
on the longish side like many of the older play boats.

The reason these same play boats aren't that great at river running 
is again, they are slow and on the river that can get you in to more 
trouble then just missing the surf wave on the fly. You need that 
speed to get you through rapids and holes safely.

JFF



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From: Bob Volin <bobvolin_at_bestweb.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:52:36 -0500
I'll add my 2cents on the Neck Jive.  I'm guessing you'll find it a
responsive, yet forgiving boat.  At 6'2", legroom is an issue.  Try sitting
in a Jive "810", which is just a few centimeters longer than the standard
Jive, but may have just enough additional space for your feet and legs.

> On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Wayne Smith wrote:
>
> > I would like to expand my fleet to include an all purpose White Water /
Surf
> > boat.
> >
> > Any reccomendations??
>
> I went through a similar search.  The Necky Jive was highly recommended as
> a boat that did a good job at both ocean surfing and whitewater.
> I'm 170, 6', 33" inseam and fit easily.  I can't verify how good it is
since
> I've only used it for rolling practice.
>
> > I am 6'2" - 200# A bit long of leg (Inseam = 32") -
Beginner-Intermediate
> > paddler.  Would like to learn to roll..
> >
> > Would like to find a boat that fits most criteria...
>
> Another option is one of the new playboats.  They aren't as good for
running
> whitewater but are great for playing games on waves or destination play
> spots.  During pool sessions the "good" playboaters paddle across the
pool,
> submerge the bow and balance the boat at about a 70 degree angle with the
> stern in the air, then with a quick motion, cartwheel and stand the boat
> on the stern.  I squeezed into a Wavesport XXX last week and am now
lusting
> after a playboat.
>
> Someone else suggested the Dagger Redline, you are sized well for that
boat,
> I found it a bit awkward to roll and think something with hard chines
would
> be preferable for ocean surfing.  But what do I know I've only used my
> "whitewater" boat to roll....
>
> kirk
>
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>

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From: <SNStone_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:55:21 EST
Consider a Daggar RPM Max - although it may be too short for your legs.  I 
tried Bob Volin's Necky Jive last week and really liked it; rolled very 
smoothly (I didn't move the foot pegs back from BOb's long leg position (I 
have a 28 inseam). It is not on my want list (at this point I think my 
Darling Wife won't notice another boat around the house - after 6, what's one 
more, or 2 more, or 3 more).

good luck,
sid

ps:  Those on this list who know Darling Wife must promise to remain quiet 
regarding new boat acquisition possibilities. 

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From: Joe Federici <fedo_at_hudsonet.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:58:49 -0500
The trouble with getting one boat for surf and white water is aspects 
of the design can conflict. Your basicly looking for a mid volume 
w.w. boat with a flat bottomed.
I'd try something from the inazone series from Pyranha 
http://www.pyranha.com/  They make them in 4 sizes so one should fit 
alright.

I'd also try a Grind and Boogie from Riot: 
http://www.riotkayaks.com/riot/pages/fr_enter.html
The Boogie is made just for surf and handles really well will the 
added fins on the bottom. The grind is a fuller version of the Glide, 
a boat I've surf and w.w. paddled in quite a bit. Also a good chose 
but it's a hard boat to lean in, very edgy.
I think you'll find with white water boats that just about ANYTHING 
goes in the design department and because of it you really need to 
paddle them before buying.

I'd Also thing about buying a used boat. Since your looking for a 
beginner you don't need the latest style and plastic hold up. Once 
you've got an idea of what your looking for try posting a WTB (want 
to buy) add on boater talk or other w.w. message boards in your area.

good luck

JFF
>Any reccomendations??
>
>I am 6'2" - 200# A bit long of leg (Inseam = 32") - Beginner-Intermediate
>paddler.  Would like to learn to roll..

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From: Bill Leonhardt <WJLeonhardt_at_bnl.gov>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:30:55 -0500
Hello Paddlewisers,

The question of white water boat recommendations is very interesting to me.
 It is something I wonder about from time to time.

Although it is useful to hear the height and weight of someone recommending
a boat, it would be also good to consider shoe size as well.  At 6'1", 215
lbs and 32" inseam, I can scale from what others have said...PROVIDING...I
can fit in my size 13 feet.

Any thoughts?

Bill Leonhardt


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From: Mark Mastalski <mastalski_at_engr.wisc.edu>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:51:01 -0600
>'At 6'1", 215
>lbs and 32" inseam, I can scale from what others have said...PROVIDING...I
>can fit in my size 13 feet.'

Three boats to consider are the Wave Sport Z, Prijon Luv, and Dagger Outlaw.
You should be able to find used Z or Luv, but the Outlaw is a brand new 
design, so good luck finding a used one this year.  All designs are roomy, 
comfortable and should fit the big dogs you have.  Good luck.

Mark


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From: Joe Federici <fedo_at_hudsonet.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:23:09 -0500
Bill your in Luck. You like so many others are not able to take 
advantage of newer trend in play boats because of your size. Well 
hungry boat manufactures don't want you to feel left out anymore. 
You'll find many of them released new play boats in 2001 for the 
larger paddler based on there smaller siblings. Some of these are 
Wave Sport's: Big EZ and Score, Perception's: madness and the Super 
ego from Dagger. I'm sure the list goes on.

JFF


>
>can fit in my size 13 feet.
>
>Any thoughts?
>
>Bill Leonhardt
>
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From: Kirk Olsen <kolsen_at_imagelan.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:38:13 -0500 (EST)
On Tue, 27 Feb 2001, Joe Federici wrote:

> Bill your in Luck. You like so many others are not able to take 
> advantage of newer trend in play boats because of your size. Well 
> hungry boat manufactures don't want you to feel left out anymore. 
> You'll find many of them released new play boats in 2001 for the 
> larger paddler based on there smaller siblings. Some of these are 
> Wave Sport's: Big EZ and Score, Perception's: madness and the Super 
> ego from Dagger. I'm sure the list goes on.

I pool paddled a Big EZ monday night.  The owner had size 13's and fit
comfortably.  At 170 lbs, I wasn't heavy enough to get the bow to dive
much.  He got a deal on the Big EZ and a second creek boat.  I could have
sworn it was a Wavesport but don't see it on their site.  The creek boat
had even more room than the big ez (the owner was 6'3", size 13s, and
looked to be about 230lbs)


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From: Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe <aldercreek_at_qwest.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:20:59 -0800
Whitewater/ surf boats for 6'2" 200lbs 32" inseam:

I'd go for a planning hull.  Comfortable and forgiving.

Dagger Redline, Necky Gliss or Jive 8.10, Wave Sport Z or Godzilla,
Perception Madness,  Pyranha 242, etc.

Lots of boats and sooooo little time.

The Wave Sport Score is a personal favorite.

good luck

steve scherrer
Alder Creek Kayak and Canoe    N 45º 39' 47"
250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr.       W 122º 36' 16"
Portland, OR  97217          Web: www.aldercreek.com
Phone: 503.285.0464        Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net



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From: Erik Sprenne <sprenne_at_netnitco.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:00:52 -0600
My feet are only 11's, but are big enuf that they were an issue when
shopping for a _short_ WW boat.  I sat in every boat I could, and
test-paddled the most comfy ones before I bought my short boat - a Beast
(made by Savage, which is no longer in business).

It was just too hard for me to get into and out of some of the newer short
boats, and my relatively inflexible ankles suffered in many of the boats
after 15-20 minutes.  Last summer I took the Beast out to play in the surf,
and had a hard time punching out through the breakers (we get reasonable
surf under full-fetch conditions here at the southern end of Lake Michigan)
due both to the slow hull speed, and the low volume bow knifing into the
waves.

At the risk of sounding 'old school', I'd suggest an older design boat as
and all-purpose *river and surf* boat.  One that comes to mind - and that
might even fit 13's - is the Cruise Control by New Wave.  It's an old enough
design that it won't break the bank, it's an excellent front surfing boat,
and has enough speed to make paddling upstream or though the surf less of a
grunt.  You can't throw ends in this boat due to it's high volume bow, but
it will do respectable stern squirts.
And did I mention?  It surfs REALLY well!

Regards,
Erik Sprenne


Wayne Smith wrote:
> I would like to expand my fleet to include an all purpose White Water /
Surf
> boat.
> Any reccomendations??
> I am 6'2" - 200# A bit long of leg (Inseam = 32") - Beginner-Intermediate
> paddler.  Would like to learn to roll..
> Would like to find a boat that fits most criteria...


Bill Leonhardt added:
> The question of white water boat recommendations is very interesting to
me.
>  It is something I wonder about from time to time.
>
> Although it is useful to hear the height and weight of someone
recommending
> a boat, it would be also good to consider shoe size as well.  At 6'1", 215
> lbs and 32" inseam, I can scale from what others have said...PROVIDING...I
> can fit in my size 13 feet.



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From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_rockandwater.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 05:45:09 -0500
On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 12:00:52AM -0600, Erik Sprenne wrote:
> At the risk of sounding 'old school', I'd suggest an older design boat as
> and all-purpose *river and surf* boat.  One that comes to mind - and that
> might even fit 13's - is the Cruise Control by New Wave.  It's an old enough
> design that it won't break the bank, it's an excellent front surfing boat,
> and has enough speed to make paddling upstream or though the surf less of a
> grunt.  You can't throw ends in this boat due to it's high volume bow, but
> it will do respectable stern squirts.

I'll second this recommendation's premise: get an all-purpose river boat.
I recommend that beginners start with any of:

	Perception Pirouette
	Perception Corsica
	Dagger Crossfire
	Dagger Response
	Wavesport Lazer

First, all of these boats are available *used* in quantity.  This immediately
saves a beginner a bunch of cash.   And a beginner will abuse them anyway,
so there's no sense in buying a new boat.

Second, all of these boats perform basic whitewater moves well: the
eddy turn and peel out, upstream ferry, front surf, and and side surf.
They're all easy to roll.  They're all large enough to avoid the
(increasing) problems we're seeing in the sport with small boats
in difficult whitewater.

Third, none of these boats are designed for rodeo moves.  I think this
is a good thing: rodeo moves are cool, rodeo moves are neat, but they're
not terribly useful when you're trying to catch a 1/2-boat eddy halfway
down a class IV rapid.  I've been astonished at the number of developing
paddlers I've run into who can do cartwheels all day but do not have
a satisfactory eddy turn in class II water.  (And learning to do rodeo
moves in a standard boat, while harder, is not only possible but is
a better learning exercise. [*])

Sure, doing 2000 eddy turns isn't as fun as carving up a hole.  And if
all you want to do is the latter, then I suppose it's fine.  But the problem
is that an increasing number of paddlers are incorrectly presuming that
because they can surf all day in their Mr. Clean that they have the
requisite skills to take on difficult whitewater; and this doesn't
become apparent until problems surface.

---Rsk

[*] I've seen a US team member pull off 4-point carthweels in a slalom
K-1...13'2" long.  *That* is impressive.

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From: Fernando Lopez Arbarello <kayak_argentina_at_uol.com.ar>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:48:46 -0300
----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Smith <wsmith_at_cts.com>
To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 3:45 PM
Subject: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]


> I would like to expand my fleet to include an all purpose White Water /
Surf
> boat.
>
> Any reccomendations??

Dagger's RPM or REDLINE will make it grate, Necky's JIVE or Prijon's FLY
too. Look for the one you feel more comfortable, spetially at your legs and
feet. Any of these boats will lead you deep into the whitewater world,
starting from zero to master basic and advanced rodeo mooves, and run up to
class V rivers, even do some creeking. I had myself an RPM and loved it.
I´ve run class III and IV rivers with no problem and have friends who used
it to run the FUTALEUFU in Chile and the ZAMBEZI in Africa. ( I love myself
too much to fight these monsters ... ).

Dagger´s CENTRIFUGE would be my choice, but it is more technical and I'm not
sure you'll fit it. All of them are excellent for surfing at sea and will
let you perform any pirouette you can imagine.

As it will be a start boat find a 2nd hand one.  Whitewater kayaking is the
most pushing branch of the sport, so new and more radical designs appear
about every 6 month, letting you reach further limits. I won't sugest you
any boat shorter or with less volume than these, as it will be harder to
control, turning more difficult the learning process. Once you master it you
can find one more technical. If have the chance, learn with the pro's, it
worth the money, and you'll learn something more important than the technic
itself, SAFETY.

You can check them out and find other options at
http://www.freestylekayaker.com/ , grate site by the way.



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From: <SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:47:48 EST
In a message dated 2/27/01 10:42:47 PM, WJLeonhardt_at_bnl.gov writes:

<< At 6'1", 215 lbs and 32" inseam, I can scale from what others have 
said...PROVIDING...I can fit in my size 13 feet. >>

Bill,
    All I can say regarding WW boats and big feet is that toes are highly 
overrated in general and can be eliminated without hampering one's ability to 
paddle.

Speed Limp
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From: Barbara Kossy <bkossy_at_igc.org>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:49:11 -0800
You might also consider a sit-on-top surf boat.
That would give you plenty of room for your feet.
Sorry, but I can't rattle off the names of the models.
Barbara

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net
[mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 6:48 PM
To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]


In a message dated 2/27/01 10:42:47 PM, WJLeonhardt_at_bnl.gov writes:

<< At 6'1", 215 lbs and 32" inseam, I can scale from what others have
said...PROVIDING...I can fit in my size 13 feet. >>

Bill,
    All I can say regarding WW boats and big feet is that toes are highly
overrated in general and can be eliminated without hampering one's ability
to
paddle.

Speed Limp
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From: <volinjo_at_juno.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:03:44 -0500
> 
> ps:  Those on this list who know Darling Wife must promise to remain 
> quiet 
> regarding new boat acquisition possibilities. 
> 
> What's it worth to you, Sid???

heh heh heh


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From: Steve Scherrer <Flatpick_at_teleport.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 06:42:15 -0800
The problem with all of the boats that you listed is the fact that they are
all serious displacement hulls.  The truth of the matter is planning hulls
work better.  No manufacturer is introducing a dis hull boat, and except for
a few old designs, no one is building them.  Why buy an obsolete boat?  Why
not benefit from new technology and learn in a modern boat?

I teach kayaking for a living and students learn soooooo much faster in a
flat, modern hull.

Just MNSHO.

Steve Scherrer
aldercreek.com

original snip>>
I recommend that beginners start with any of:

Perception Pirouette
Perception Corsica
Dagger Crossfire
Dagger Response
Wavesport Lazer





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From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_rockandwater.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] [Fwd: White Water Recomendations]
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:15:27 -0500
On Wed, Feb 28, 2001 at 06:42:15AM -0800, Steve Scherrer wrote:
> The problem with all of the boats that you listed is the fact that they are
> all serious displacement hulls.  The truth of the matter is planning hulls
> work better.  No manufacturer is introducing a dis hull boat, and except for
> a few old designs, no one is building them.  Why buy an obsolete boat?  Why
> not benefit from new technology and learn in a modern boat?

<chuckle> I don't really strongly disagree *except* that I am
very concerned that a lot of beginners are not acquiring strong
fundamental skills, and I think boat designs are part of the problem.
(They're certainly not the only factor, though.)

I'm not trying to get everyone into a 4-meter slalom boat (although it
has its advantages), but I don't think designed-for-rodeo-and-not-much-else
boats are the answer either.  I think that part of what we're seeing in
designs represents evolution and progress; I think another part of it
represents the influence of the tremendous success of rodeo in
promoting itself and its style of paddling.  Not that this is bad,
per se, but I'm not sure it's all-wonderful either.

---Rsk

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From: Joe Federici <fedo_at_hudsonet.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] White Water with Just one boat.
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:00:04 -0500
Rick,

I think you've and others have touched on the problem that w.w. is 
facing in the near future. The boats are getting very specialized and 
basic skills are not getting taught or practiced Companies are using 
rodeo and steep creaking hype to sell most of there boats these days. 
I'm not saying I don't love the new smaller play boats that make so 
thing's easier but the sales people could do a better job when 
selling them. I've seem more then a few boats for sale because the 
person who bought them didn't paddle them but ratter went with what a 
sales man or brochure said.
This thread on P.W. started from someone trying to find a 
multipurpose boat. Something the w.w. industry as whole is getting 
way from. Most w.w. paddlers have more then one boat because of this.
It's when you only want to buy one boat and you decided to go with 
the new Wave Spot EZ because it surfs sooooooo well then find 
yourself getting window shaded in hole that you realize maybe you've 
got the wrong boat for the job. .  .
Oh and your friends never seen a rescue done on the latest twitch 
video so he can't help and didn't have the room  for a throw bag too. 
;-)

JFF

<chuckle> I don't really strongly disagree *except* that I am
very concerned that a lot of beginners are not acquiring strong
fundamental skills, and I think boat designs are part of the problem.
(They're certainly not the only factor, though.)

I'm not trying to get everyone into a 4-meter slalom boat (although it
has its advantages), but I don't think designed-for-rodeo-and-not-much-else
boats are the answer either.  I think that part of what we're seeing in
designs represents evolution and progress; I think another part of it
represents the influence of the tremendous success of rodeo in
promoting itself and its style of paddling.  Not that this is bad,
per se, but I'm not sure it's all-wonderful either.

---Rsk

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