Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com wrote: >>>>In fact paddling on the whole only survived because of the emergence of cheaper plastic kayaks. This in turn has allowed a modern renaissance of folding boats (which the other Ralph has been documenting for the last decade of its growth on this continent).<<<< Is this the general consensus out there? I've been around this business since before "cheaper plastic" sea kayaks (and before sea kayak retail stores existed outside the NW corner of the US--and SW corner of Canada) and sea kayaking (much less paddling) never seemed in danger of not surviving to me and in fact was rapidly gaining in popularity even before plastic came on the scene. Sea kayaking stores had started popping up around the coastal and Great Lakes areas of the country by the time the first plastic sea kayak was introduced in 1984 (the Aquaterra Chinook). Aquaterra/Perception certainly signed up a lot of new dealers, sporting goods, and hardware stores across the country with the introduction of the cheap plastic Chinook and later models but I think all the major folding kayak companies were already in existence before then and Feathercraft never seemed to be doing anything but expanding as long as I can remember them (since about 1982). I wonder if Folbot would give us a sales history from well before 1984 to as recently as they would be willing to. I think I recall Folbot ads in Canoe magazine since the mid 70's and in magazines like Popular Mechanics since the 50's. Those sales figures might be interesting, to see if the popularity growth of plastic kayaks correlated well with their sales history or did it more closely follow the popularity of sea kayaking in general, or maybe some other reasons yet to be postulated will correlate better still. Our company never felt in danger of sea kayaking not surviving, quite the opposite, the popularity brought much more competition into the field and for us this certainly began before plastic sea kayaks were introduced and became widespread. Since Canoeing is also "paddling" I don't think those companies were saved from extinction by plastic kayaks either. Sea Kayaking's popularity has probably come partly at Canoeing's expense. Marion, Yes, ASKC was my abbreviation for Advanced Sea Kayaking Club but my memory inserted Anglesey as my best guess at the time without looking it up (which is why I added the "I think" after it). I kept the data and sources of it in abbreviated form because pre 2000 versions of MS Excel had "I think" a 256 unit limit in each cell and I had to abbreviate a lot to get some data to fit. I even checked my source publications abbreviations list at the top of the spreadsheet but alas I hadn't listed ASKC among them and had therefore had to wing it (or work too hard in order to check it). I apologize for the blunder. I'll bet the kayak Wayne Smith wanted to know about with the "wings" behind the cockpit and the groove down the middle is an older model Downriver Racing Kayak. If so, it will be about 14' 9" (4.5 meters) long and about 24.5" (62cm) wide at the wingtips. Prijon (of Germany) is probably the largest builder of that type of kayak so if forced to guess I'd go with the best odds. I seem to remember a DR boat with a groove down the middle too, ?maybe a Phoenix Mach II?--nope, that was built in the USA and would probably be older than 14 and with clear fabric. Hope the paddler of it had big float bags in it. Some paddlers have used DR boats as sea kayaks in a pinch but I wouldn't recommend it. Not only were the ones I tried quite tippy but they weathercocked horribly in side winds (even empty) and don't come with rudders. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:57 PM 2/8/01 -0800, Matt Broze wrote: >Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com wrote: >>>>>In fact paddling on the whole only survived because of the emergence of >cheaper plastic kayaks. This in turn has allowed a modern renaissance of >folding boats (which the other Ralph has been documenting for the last >decade >of its growth on this continent).<<<< > >Is this the general consensus out there? (big snip) >"paddling" I don't think those companies were saved from extinction by >plastic kayaks either. Sea Kayaking's popularity has probably come partly at >Canoeing's expense. If you change the word "paddling" in Ralph's statement to "kayaking", then he's probably right. The plastic 'yak virtually started a whole new ball game out there. But Matt is right, too -- kayaks have taken a big bite out of the canoe market, especially for solo users. But the canoe makers aren't hurting much from it -- there are still a lot being built. The advent of plastics did revolutionize that industry -- say, twenty or thirty years ago, the aluminum canoe was king of the heap. Now, they're something like five percent of the market. -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com wrote: > >>>>In fact paddling on the whole only survived because of the emergence of > cheaper plastic kayaks. This in turn has allowed a modern renaissance of > folding boats (which the other Ralph has been documenting for the last > decade > of its growth on this continent).<<<< > > Is this the general consensus out there? > I've been around this business since before "cheaper plastic" sea kayaks > (and before sea kayak retail stores existed outside the NW corner of the > US--and SW corner of Canada) and sea kayaking (much less paddling) never > seemed in danger of not surviving to me and in fact was rapidly gaining in > popularity even before plastic came on the scene. I think the word "survive" spoken by the other Ralph should have been "thrive." I mean "thrive" in the sense of really taking off. The polyethylene kayaks reduced prices sufficiently that people who were (and are) curious about sea kayaking are willing to take a chance in buying one. It isn't too much of a stretch of the pocketbook for someone to plunk down $800 for a basic polyethylene kayak while it does take them to nosebleed levels if they have to shell out $2,000 and more for a fiberglass kayak. This still holds today. Low price polyethylene kayaks draw people in and help companies too. I recall about 8 years ago talking with an owner of a pretty savvy kayak manufacturing company. His company had just started producing polyethylene boats. I knew from previous conversations with him that he had great pride in the fiberglass and other composite materials boats his company made. I asked him why he had started producing plastic after all these years and some derisive early comments about plastic by him. He said, "Ralph, making plastic boats is the next best thing to printing money." The margins are huge and the room for discounting, sales pricing, etc. is vast. All, of course, after the initial huge capital expenditure fo r the plastic boat making machines and molds. If it had not been for plastic, I believe growth would have been limited. The sea kayaking industry would have grown but not like it did (and does). Fiberglass boats can only be made at a certain rate what with hand layups, curing times, finishing work etc. Plastic is quicker and less hand, and most importantly, less skill intensive. You know that there are good fiberglass craftsmen and there are less than good ones. In plastic, that skill level imperative plays a less of a part. Let us take ourselves back to the late 1980s and pretend for a moment that plastic sea kayaks, starting with the Lee Moyers designed Aquaterra Chinook around 1984, had not come along. Let's say suddenly because of Sea Kayaker magazine and good columns from the likes of Matt Broze, Lee Moyers, et al a whole lot of people are inticed into wanting to buy boats. I doubt that any wildly increased demand could have been kept up with were the only offerings longer to make and more expensive to produce fiberglass boats. Large demand, more limited supply would have driven up prices (a dampener on demand for many many inquisitive wannabe buyers) and/or wound up producing less than perfect fiberglass ones, i.e. shoddier workmanship. > Feathercraft never seemed to be doing anything but expanding as long as I > can remember them (since about 1982). Actually, for the longest time in the 1980s, Feathercraft was just hanging on by its fingernails. It got some nasty competitive statements coming out of the East that cast doubt on its products. It went through some fits and starts in choices of hull material and some nasty stuff said about them from a major folding kayak dealer in the West. It was only real persistence and great designs that saw the company finally through. I wonder if Folbot would give us a > sales history from well before 1984 to as recently as they would be willing > to. I think I recall Folbot ads in Canoe magazine since the mid 70's and in > magazines like Popular Mechanics since the 50's. Both Folbot and Klepper did wonderfully well in the 1950s-1970s. Remember that in some ways, Klepper was the only show in town in the 1950s-1970s with Folbot benefiting from lower price offerings alternatives to it. But then hard times hit. Klepper closed its factory doors for a few years and Folbot went through a period of offering much too many models, getting a bad reputation on quality (really undeserved), and the death of the founder and owner Jack Kissner. Also the rise of rigid kayaks starting in the late 1970s and then plastic in the mid 1980s with their image of indestructibility affected folding kayak sales. Anyway, that is my take. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:20 PDT