Thanks Ralph H, and others for interesting posts on this issue. Ralph I agree with your points. After sending my first post I immediately thought of the Khats crowd, and how they probably bought their boat so they COULD roll! But down this part of the world, ANY folding boat is a very rare beast. I have heard a rumor there is a Khats or two in Australia but I have never seen one. I see the odd Klepper around, and there are one or two Feathercraft K1 and Lite devotees among the dozens of glass and plastic boat owners in my local seakayaking club. Understandably, the conversation down under is dominated by how to develop bombproof rolls and the finer points of repairing and altering fibreglass hulls [ ( ;- ] ! I think we agree that folding boat owners should really emphasise their ability to brace. The irony, as you point out, is that you can get by without bracing much of the time in these fat boats, until you REALLY need to brace! In other words the primary stability breeds laziness. Your comments on your cockpit fit out are interesting. One of my first modications on the Klepper was to throw away their steering cable chains, replacing them with high-wear cordage which I can loop around and clip to a rib when I am not using the rudder. This modification enables me to brace the rudder pedals in an upright position and thus have nice firm footrests. I am fortunately of the right size to be able to also jam myself into the cockpit and CAN hang upside down in the boat. Just for fun. Which leads me to a few other points in what I call the 'survive capability' of the Klepper. The boat is very stable upside down. In extremis, ie, exhausted, injured, sea-sick etc, the boat will provide a relatively level platform from which to launch flares, radio, etc. That is, the design of the boat makes it as stable upside down, as it is the 'right side up'. Maybe this is comforting as I live 'downunder'! Perhaps I should explain that I tend to paddle alone so my mindset is always to survive alone. I don't know if other foldables can be paddled full of water, but I practice this also. Again, it is just another technique which helps you extend the capabilities of the design. This of course is more practical if the boat is full of gear, or carries bow and stern floatation. This is where the Klepper gets its U-boat nickname! Downunder, we tend to fit electric pumps, and in my case I have a Rule 800gph, and a rather large sealed lead acid 12v battery which has proved a reliable setup over several years. With manual pump and bucket backup of course. You mention that the Klepper has a 'river boat' heritage. I guess that's right, but I am sure you will also agree that a good 'ol boat in capable hands is still a safe prospect at sea. And I have found that at the end of the day, ie, six hours into a head wind and sea, I am still there with the glass and plastic boats. Not the fastest, not the most fashionable, but still there. And I really appreciate the design's seaworthiness, almost an intangible, but over long hours at sea, the ability to sail, the ability to not expend energy on maintaining stability/tracking in high wind/seas compared with some boats, and the relative chances of a successful re-entry on capsize, all combine to make it a plus for survivability. I AM going to pursue rolling the Klepper, out of cussedness, as much as anything. But I will take survivability over rollability anytime. Peter Rattenbury *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Rattenbury (ratten_at_uow.edu.au): Do any Klepper or Feathercraft owners roll their boats? I mean in real conditions, not as a 'circus trick' as Ralph Diaz so aptly describes it. By real conditions, I mean in the sort of sea/swell/wind /surf mix which would put you upside down in one of these boats? Ralph Hoehn: Peter, that depends. Khatsalano owners will happily roll all day long and are well advised to be able to do so. At least some larger and heavier users of K-Light and Alu-Lite will also benefit from a roll even under "normal" paddling circumstances. Let's expand your question to the wider range of currently available folding boats: In a broad generalization Folbot, Klepper and Nautiraid singles, as well as the Feathercraft K1 and the Pouch E65 will not need to be rolled under normal circumstances, nor are they intended to be, but, as Jochen Grikschat points out, ("rolling for everyone"): Having the skills to perform a roll will make your paddling in general that much more self-confident. Seavivor singles (I'm told) and the Pouch E68 can be paddled comfortably without ever rolling. However, if you take them into or through surf (where they are a lot of fun!) the ability to roll will stand you in good stead, increase your enjoyment of the experience and make you safer -- it will make the unit of you, the paddler, and your craft that much more seaworthy (no boat is seaworthy until it has a competent operator). Folding doubles should probably not be rolled under real life conditions. It is hard and requires very good cordination. If the circumstances are such that you capsized in the first place, a technique, which is already complicated to perform in a double, will most likely become impossible. At that point it's easier and probably safer to perform an inverted exit, right the boat and reenter, the one paddler helping the other. Practice this in earnest! HOWEVER: The important thing is NOT the act of rolling, but rather the acquisition of the skill that COULD give you the ability to roll. Many folding kayakers are complacent in that they love to rely on the "legendary" stability of their boats to see them through adversity. In short, steep breaking waves however this stability works against you once the severity of the sea state surpasses a certain point: The tendency of the boat to stay parallel to the surface of the water leaves you perpendicular to it even when the surface of the water is no longer level. Eventually that will lead to a capsize, unless you have the confidence and ability to brace very aggressively into the (breaking) wave that's about to tumble you. In fact, in a "stable" folding boat, your brace needs to be much more aggressive than in less stable craft. I contend that having practiced inversion prevention and inversion recovery in any boat will be of benefit to you under such circumstances (even if you never take it to a full inversion and recovery, the "circus trick"; and by the way, Ralph Diaz continues to work hard on his rolling skills, even if he has no intention of ever running away to the circus, which is what I threatened my parents with most of a life time ago). PR: This issue is of importance to me, as the owner of a single Klepper who is constantly asked about rolling the thing by my glass/plastic boat owning friends. My reply to them is why would I want to roll a boat which by reason of its air sponsons is difficult to roll in ideal conditions, and in fact the whole notion is contrary to the design of the boat. RH: (pet peeve: It's not the air sponsons that give the boat stability, but the area, shape and distribution (along the length of the boat) of the hull's submerged cross sections. Increasing beam will tend to increase stability -- whether the exterior shape of the hull is determined by the outline of the boat's sponsonless frame or by inserted sponsons or by the skin being stuffed full of old socks is irrelevant. Inflatable sponsons provide no stability until the boat is swamped.) I quite agree with you that the notion of rolling a Klepper single (and most other folding singles for that matter) is contrary to its design of course. These boats were designed for relatively calm river touring, not for sea kayaking; they are not intended to invert. However, more and more kayakers are pushing the envelope of what is possible with these boats. To do so, to take the boats beyond their design limits, you need skills and technique ... or you have to change to a boat which is designed for more extreme conditions. Incidentally, Edi Hans Pawlata writes in his introduction to "Kipp, kipp hurrah!" (published in 1928) describes how he was not only proud to see his first student perform a roll in a narrow, Greenland-type hull, but for that same student to effect the technique in a "normal" river touring (folding) boat. The design of the latter is likely to have been very similar to traditional folding singles like the Klepper (as opposed to the more recently developed folding boats entering the market in the last few years). PR: And how are you going to hang upside down in a Klepper, without dangerously compromising your ability to safely and efficiently wet exit. I just do not think you can fit out the Klepper's large and wide cockpit without going to ludicrous measures. RH: - Retrofitting solid footrests (if they are not factory installed) is something one should do to any (folding) boat unless the transverse frames happen to provide decent purchase for your feet. - A firm, fixed seat and back rest should be a standard requirement. - I've had no problems bracing my knees under the coaming of Klepper doubles for my third vital contact point to effect boat control (in single paddler mode). - The only modification I made to my Pouch RZ96 for pool training was to strap inflatable buoyancy bags to the frame at the gunwales on either side of the seat: Perfect, cheap, infinitely adjustable outfitting. None of it ludicrous in my book, none of it interfered in any way with my ability to exit inverted. Try it (especially the exit!), practice it ... Jochen Grikschat is somewhat of an extreme paddler (about whom one might here more in this respect in due course); nonetheless he admits to fear in a boat and a decrease of that fear after learning certain techniques AND practicing them. This does apply to folding boats no less! PR: All this, however, places even a greater onus on owners of boats like mine to religiously practice self rescue techniques other than rolling. And because I paddle mostly in open sea, this means practice in realistically rough conditions. RH: Rolling your Klepper single is NOT a rescue technique until you are VERY good at it. Preventing an inversion is your first best form of "rescue" and, I trust, you practice this religiously, too. Of course practicing reentry techniques is a prerequisite for your type of paddling for the time when all else fails ... but I'd prefer not to put myself at risk of hungry critters (;-) or, more importantly, hypothermia in the first place. Therefore I strongly advocate that even, no, especially (complacent) folding boat owners wake up and practice boat control techniques (which, in my 30 years in folding boats, I have seen very few do ... including me for the first few years until the usefulness of technique use was pointed out to me by courtesy of a relatively benign mishap, which could have ended in disaster). If of course you only paddle on a mill pond on a perfectly calm sunny summer Sunday afternoon you may wish to laugh me out of court. PR: It seems to me, that rolling is something which my friends constantly obsess about; ... At this end of the world [ Australia ], there is such an emphasis on rolling ability that it has now become a dictum that if you don't roll, you aren't really a seakayaker. RH: Yep, people obsess about this mystical thing misnamed rolling -- wrongly and at the expense of seeing the greater picture. PR: We recently had a 'club incident' in which a number of kayakers found themselves floundering around tipped out of their boats [ all glass or plastic ] in worsening wind and sea conditions about a kilometre off a rocky lee shore, and unable to self rescue. In other words they needed other kayakers/ or rescuers from shore to help them get upright and/or out of danger. Some of these folks had probably practiced rolling, but when they encountered a suprise capsize, which is quite a different kettle of fish to a controlled set up roll in flat calm, they failed to rescue themselves. Again, it is my observation, that if you are going to rely on a roll as the primary self rescue technique, then this should incorporate a re-entry upside down, and roll up. And how many of us can do that, or practice this? RH: No comment!!! PR: Any thoughts, folks, particularly from the good 'ol folding boat community? RH: A few ... now, where to start ... ;-) Ralph *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The snowy winter in the great lakes started off as good news for great lakes water levels, but rainfall and snowfall have tailed off to average and there hasn't been the cold weather to ice the lakes up and keep evaporation down. As a result, Lake Superior is the lowest it's been since 1926, according to this ENN story: http://www.enn.com/news/wire-stories/2001/02/02062001/krt_lake_41845.asp -- Wes *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wes Boyd <boydwe_at_dmci.net> wrote: > The snowy winter in the great lakes started off as good news for great > lakes water levels, but rainfall and snowfall have tailed off to average > and there hasn't been the cold weather to ice the lakes up and keep > evaporation down. As a result, Lake Superior is the lowest it's been since > 1926, according to this ENN story: > > http://www.enn.com/news/wire-stories/2001/02/02062001/krt_lake_41 845.asp > > According to the Army Corps links below, Superior is still some 6-7 inches above record low levels, though it *is approaching* the record low levels seen in 1925-1926: http://huron.lre.usace.army.mil/levels/superior.pdf (a plot of just Lake Superior water levels) http://huron.lre.usace.army.mil/levels/cbulletin.pdf (plots of all Great Lakes water levels) http://huron.lre.usace.army.mil/levels/weekly.html (2/9 report) http://huron.lre.usace.army.mil/levels/Update142.pdf presents the 2000 summary report for the Great Lakes Regards, Erik Sprenne *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/14/01 11:53:22 PM, ratten_at_uow.edu.au writes: << Which leads me to a few other points in what I call the 'survive capability' of the Klepper. The boat is very stable upside down. In extremis, ie, exhausted, injured, sea-sick etc, the boat will provide a relatively level platform from which to launch flares, radio, etc. That is, the design of the boat makes it as stable upside down, as it is the 'right side up'. << huge snip of interesting stuff >> But I will take survivability over rollability anytime. Peter Rattenbury >> Peter brings up an interesting point. Various designers take different approaches as they strive to make their designs seaworthy and safe. A common feature for folding boats is to design in high stability which will offers protection via ease of handling as the paddle approaches exhaustion. This same high stability also works to keep the uninitiated somewhat safer than they would be in a more tender craft during early training. Narrow Greenland style boats (whatever that means) on the other had offer no such safe haven whether upright or inverted and offer nothing to the non-skilled paddler. But with a pilot that has the skills they do offer the ability to dance around in conditions that would prove quite challenging for large boats and they provide for the ability to self-right via the roll. For pilots of narrow boats these traits are what provide safety and "survival capability" by allowing the craft to negotiate more extreme conditions upright and paddling. Two different approaches yield two different designs based on two different safety models. I don't say that one is right and the other is wrong, the world is too complicated for such a simplistic approach. Each design brings with it it's own strengths and limitations. But let each paddler chose their craft and be proud of their choice. We are all the richer for the diversity that exists. Jed (Khatsalano owner wannabe) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 2/14/01 6:35:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, ratten_at_uow.edu.au writes: << I will take survivability over rollability anytime. >> You got that right, mate! :-) Ralph *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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