Hi all, It is common kayak knowledge that you have to pump to get your kayak empty after a resque. Recently I remebered the days that I was on holliday with my parents, and we always brought a small Zodiac inflatable with an outboard engine mounted on the rear bulkhead. To get rid of any water ther were two holes in that bulkhead, fitted with rubber one- way valves to prevent the water coming into the boat. When moving even at little speed the water in the boat was sucked out through the holes. These things must have some name in English, but my Englisch is to limited to know such details. For sailing boats a similar thing exists, but it is not fitted in a rear bulkhead but in the bottom. It is a kind of extendable wedge made of stainless steel that comes down like a moving skeg. I do not know if these devices also have a valve fitted. Has anybody tried one of these devices on a kayak? I wonder if it would function at our speeds. Surely not as a primary pumping device, but they might come in handy as a back up or to get the last part of the water out. And, please, help me out: how do you call it in English?? Greetings, Merijn ****************************** Merijn Wijnen Vinkenhofje 8 5613 CN Eindhoven The Netherlands Tel.: 040-2939991 (job: 040-2650539) Fax: same as tel., call before sending or try twice E-mail: Home: merijn_at_music.demon.nl Job: m.wijnen_at_ind.tno.nl Web-site: http://www.music.demon.nl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, 20 Mar 2001 23:37:25 +0100, you wrote: Merijn asks: [...] > >And, please, help me out: how do you call it in English?? > It's called a self bailer or just bailer. Here's a picture of a bailer in a single scull: http://www.sculling.com/self_bailer.html I've often wondered how well a bailer would work in seakayak, but I haven't got the guts to actually cut a hole in my kayak to find out. best regards Peter *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:09 AM 3/21/01 +0100, Peter Unold wrote: >Merijn asks: >>And, please, help me out: how do you call it in English?? >It's called a self bailer or just bailer. Here's a picture of a bailer >in a single scull: http://www.sculling.com/self_bailer.html > >I've often wondered how well a bailer would work in seakayak, but I >haven't got the guts to actually cut a hole in my kayak to find out. I was hunting around for a picture of that. I've got those self bailers in a couple of my canoes. They work great. You don't have to be moving all that fast to get them to work. Normal kayak paddling speeds would work. I didn't install them, they were available as options from WeNoNah canoes. I would think they would be difficult to access in a kayak. The self bailer mounts flush with the bottom of the hull and you lower it to get it to function. There is a hinge along the lead edge of the bailer and a "trap door" at the back, that opens when the boat moves forward (venturi effect). The bailer is normally kept closed and opened only when bailing would be necessary. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hi all, I was really amazed about the amount of reactions on my mail about selfbailers (actually, I really new that word, but lost it somewere in the mess under my skull). The most interesting thing about the reactions is, that most people say it wo'nt work on a kayak. Then, Kirk comes along: I've got those self bailers > in a couple of my canoes. They work great. You don't have to be moving > all that fast to get them to work. Normal kayak paddling speeds would > work. I didn't install them, they were available as options from WeNoNah > canoes. Conclusion: The only positive reaction is by someone who actually uses them! Why are we always so pessimistic about things like this? Possibly because It is always much more easy to kill an idea than to try it. There are hundreds of ways to kill an idea, but only a few to prove it. Get me right, I am not saying that selfbailers are the one and only way to get rid of all that water, but they might come in handy in some circumstances (always have a back up to your backup). I am certainly going to try the idea on the next kayak I will build. Greetings, Merijn ****************************** Merijn Wijnen Vinkenhofje 8 5613 CN Eindhoven The Netherlands Tel.: 040-2939991 (job: 040-2650539) Fax: same as tel., call before sending or try twice E-mail: Home: merijn_at_music.demon.nl Job: m.wijnen_at_ind.tno.nl Web-site: http://www.music.demon.nl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:02 PM 3/22/01 +0100, merijn wijnen wrote: >I was really amazed about the amount of reactions on my mail about >selfbailers (actually, I really new that word, but lost it somewere in >the mess under my skull). > >The most interesting thing about the reactions is, that most people >say it wo'nt work on a kayak. > >Then, Kirk comes along: I've got those self bailers > in a couple of my canoes. They work great. You don't have to be moving >> all that fast to get them to work. Normal kayak paddling speeds would >> work. I didn't install them, they were available as options from WeNoNah >> canoes. > >Conclusion: The only positive reaction is by someone who actually >uses them! There was another post from another person with them in his marathon C2 who doesn't like them. My 2 canoes with the bailers are kept squeaky clean. They are kept in bags when transported and I periodically lube the bailers. I may just be lucky that I'm compulsive about taking care of some of my gear. I'm also concerned about getting at the bailer to operate it in a kayak. I did a little web searching for the bailers, from elvstrom, they appear to be fairly popular with small racing sailboats. kirk *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> "Whyte, David" wrote: > > The problem with using them on a kayak is you need to be moving > > very fast for them to work. Even on my sailing boats they required a > > reasonable speed (much faster than a paddler) before they would start > > draining the water out. ........ "Brian Nystrom" replyed > Sit on top kayaks often use them in the seat. However, they have buoyant hulls > with large trapped air spaces for floatation and no real cockpit. I don't know > how well they would work on a closed kayak with a flooded cockpit. I played many times with the idea but never had time to try it. A completely flooded kayak is absolutely unstable, but with practice can be paddled. The excess of weight will dramatically increment the inertia, demanding more time and effort to reach enought speed. But a cruising speed of 3 or 4 knots should work fine ( 4 knots is a regular speed for small vessels ). As Brian says the ventury efect is produced by the water flowing under the kayak ( yeah, aparent movement, as it is the kayak which is moving, not the water ). But here comes the probem. I use neoprenne spraysquirts, and once wetted enough they seal so well that they are not only "water-proof" but "air-prooff". This means that while the ventury will start bailing the flooded kayak, if the squirt is on a vacuum effect will tend to cancel it. So, to let it work you must paddle with the squirt off (at least partially ) or supply a way for the air to get into the cockpit, what leaves you vulnerable to the waves or storm that forced you to capsize with more water trying to get it. As we say in spanish, this is a "circulo vicioso", (literal translation is "vicious circle", I hope you get the meaning). Maybe a plug on the deck will work, letting enough air get in, and talking about carburators, they have an air duct with an easy to copy water-trap to avoid any water to get in. Itīs only a matter to play with the sizes ..... It will work .... Fernando Lopez Arbarello Kayak Argentina - Sea Kayaking Mailing List www.topica.com/lists/kayak_argentina kayak_argentina_at_uol.com.ar *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
After a rescue sometimes the best way to get water out of a kayak in deep water is to heft it up on another kayak, flip it upside down, and drain the water that way. The holes are called "scuppers" in English. They're often used to drain open deck kayaks like surf skis. The boats that use them have sufficient floatation so that the scuppers are simply small open hole, no valves are required. Barbara in Moss Beach, Calif. -----Original Message----- From: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of merijn wijnen Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2001 2:37 PM To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: [Paddlewise] getting rid of water using a ??????? Hi all, It is common kayak knowledge that you have to pump to get your kayak empty after a resque. Recently I remebered the days that I was on holliday with my parents, and we always brought a small Zodiac inflatable with an outboard engine mounted on the rear bulkhead. To get rid of any water ther were two holes in that bulkhead, fitted with rubber one- way valves to prevent the water coming into the boat. When moving even at little speed the water in the boat was sucked out through the holes. These things must have some name in English, but my Englisch is to limited to know such details. For sailing boats a similar thing exists, but it is not fitted in a rear bulkhead but in the bottom. It is a kind of extendable wedge made of stainless steel that comes down like a moving skeg. I do not know if these devices also have a valve fitted. Has anybody tried one of these devices on a kayak? I wonder if it would function at our speeds. Surely not as a primary pumping device, but they might come in handy as a back up or to get the last part of the water out. And, please, help me out: how do you call it in English?? Greetings, Merijn ****************************** Merijn Wijnen Vinkenhofje 8 5613 CN Eindhoven The Netherlands Tel.: 040-2939991 (job: 040-2650539) Fax: same as tel., call before sending or try twice E-mail: Home: merijn_at_music.demon.nl Job: m.wijnen_at_ind.tno.nl Web-site: http://www.music.demon.nl *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
With my sit on tops, the holes are actually contoured tubes molded into the kayak, there is a six inch to eight inch space between the bottom of the boat and the bottom of the cockpit. the water never comes up high enough to enter, but will always drain down the holes to the bottom and the exterior, about a six to eight inch drop. picture two inch straws joining two hulls and a six inch space between them. The inside of a sit on top is a hollow cavity. although during rough water and heavy movement it is not uncommon for water to squirt up through the holes momentarily, but it drains out almost instantly. hope this helped kirk olsen wrote: > "Question .... Are the drain plugs simple holes or > do.................................". Perry Chamberlain Kato_at_qnet.com Liv'n on de Edge n de Desert Everyone has someone in their family who is crazy, if you don't know who it is, its you! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fernando Lopez Arbarello wrote: > > "Whyte, David" wrote: > > > The problem with using them on a kayak is you need to be moving > > > very fast for them to work. > > "Brian Nystrom" replyed > > Sit on top kayaks often use them in the seat. > As Brian says the ventury efect is produced... "venturi" > But here comes the probem. I use neoprenne spraysquirts, and once > wetted enough they seal so well that they are not only "water-proof" but > "air-prooff". This means that while the ventury will start bailing the > flooded kayak, if the squirt is on a vacuum effect will tend to cancel it. > So, to let it work you must paddle with the squirt off (at least partially ) > or supply a way for the air to get into the cockpit, what leaves you > vulnerable to the waves or storm that forced you to capsize with more water > trying to get it. > > Maybe a plug on the deck will work, letting enough air get in An air make-up valve from a plastic drink cup would probably provide enough air for the relatively low flow-rate of the water exiting a self-bailing cockpit drain valve. The craftsman that made my CLC North Bay had to do this in the plastic screw-cap hatches he put in the bulkheads. These are the only opening to the fore and aft water-tight (and air-tight) compartments. Before installing breathing valves, he had the foredeck start to collapse under appropriate atmospheric conditions. I am quite interested in realistic ways to bail the cockpit under adverse conditions. The down-under small cockpit size makes a lot of sense as the first step, in having a more controllable boat during the initial emergency. Two thoughts to fellow kayaker listers: 1) I think a well designed self-bailing plug, of very high quality engineering design and construction, could self-bail without letting in the excess water inexpensive rubber flappers of sit-on-tops do. This is the first time I've heard or considered this concept, but, in conjunction with a swamped-cockpit, paddleable boat makes more hands-free sense than any pump to me. I've seen how fast a totally flooded sit-on-top bails and it's probably as fast as most pumps I've seen discussed on the list. 2) Dare I say it - in all the discussions about wet-exit and rolling safety I've seen, no menition (other than one partially-oblitherated reference) of sponsons. I've recently bought my first ones and would plan to use them pre-attached, with air tubing to my seating position and: a) inflate them if conditions turn very rough, before I might capsize, or b) for more controlled re-entry, under very rough conditions (i.e. not rollable). I don't care how many rolls one might have, if one ventures out into seas that are (or might become) very rough, my guess is one is always potentially in the water (out of the boat) by surprise. As a new Paddlewiser, I'm imagine this may have been discussed before, so flame away if you must, but I'm really interested in a rational discussion of what appears to make a lot of sense to me as a safety professional for 25 years and an avid sea kayaker, beginning to venture out into rougher waters. Regards, Ellis *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Fernando Lopez Arbarello wrote: > . But here comes the probem. I use neoprenne spraysquirts, and once > wetted enough they seal so well that they are not only "water-proof" but > "air-prooff". This means that while the ventury will start bailing the > flooded kayak, if the squirt is on a vacuum effect will tend to cancel it. Good point about the skirt. Mine seals so tight at times that it can cause my deck pump to suck air after pumping out the cockpit. -- Regards Brian *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Ellis Andersen" <ellis_at_magnus.net> > 2) Dare I say it - in all the discussions about wet-exit and rolling safety > I've seen, no menition (other than one partially-oblitherated reference) of > sponsons. I've recently bought my first ones and would plan to use them > pre-attached, with air tubing to my seating position and: a) inflate them if > conditions turn very rough, before I might capsize If rough conditions include breaking waves, sponsons will _reduce_ your stability! >, or b) for more controlled re-entry, under very rough conditions (i.e. not rollable). If the conditions are to rough to roll, you're not going to get any benefit from sponsons. Consider what WW paddlers roll in (watch any extreme kayaking video). I have had the occasion to test sponsons on a rented CD Solstice GTS a couple of years ago. It was in a small bay off of Georgian Bay, calm water with no appreciable wind. The kayak had no gear inside. I found that I could roll with them attached. It was as easy as rolling my GTH with a full load of gear. They provided little stability for reentry. I tried a "panic re-entry", where I grabbed onto the kayak and scrambled onto the deck. The kayak rolled over and dumped me. I tried a calmer entry. The kayak allowed me in, but it was little better than a cowboy entry in a fully loaded kayak. Now I've seen a kayaking friend demonstrate his sponsons on a CD Storm. He was able to stand in the kayak. He didn't have much trouble reentering. So... YMMV. I wouldn't put too much faith in them. They have a role to play in kayaking, but they tend to be overrated IMNSHO. My preference is to ensure that I stay ashore if conditions are beyond my skills, rely on paddling skills (bracing etc) to stay up and rely on a solid roll if I go over. If I do have to exit, I'd rather use a paddle float. I've never had to roll my SK yet. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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