I have a question regarding what is the appropriate dress when immersion in cold water is a possibility. For example, as many of you may know NRS makes your standard 3 millimeter neoprene wetsuit and then they make the Hydro Skin. I love the Hydro Skin as it is much more comfortable and doesn't have that clammy feeling against your skin. The downside however is that it does not have the R-factor of the neoprene, meaning it does not provide for as much insulation, something important if immersion in cold water is a possibility. Where I run into trouble is when I'm trying to figure out what to wear on a July 4th paddle in Lake Superior. The air may be 80 degrees, but darn that water is still plenty cold. Certainly I'd love to be wearing Hydro Skin on such a warm day, but if immersion were to occur, I'm guessing that the Hydro Skin would not provide sufficient core warmth. Do some of you always wear a dry suit to protect against immersion, regardless of the air temperature? Is there a recommended water temperature where it is appropriate to always wear a dry suit, not just a wetsuit? I've often heard the 110 degree rule, meaning if the water and air temperature combined are under 110 degrees Fahrenheit, you should be wearing a dry suit, but is this too simple a rule? I have whitewater kayaked for eight years now and dressing for that is simple since I find myself upside-down plenty. However, I find myself struggling against dressing appropriately for a warm day on cold water when sea kayaking. Cold day, cold water, no problem. Warm day, warm water, no problem. There's probably no one answer, since each person weighs risk of immersion differently. What would you suggest to a novice paddler getting into the sport and asking for your educated suggestion? Thanks and happy paddling. Mark Mastalski *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Mastalski wrote: > For example, as many of you may know NRS > makes your standard 3 millimetre neoprene wetsuit > I would like this clarified please. When most of you refer to a wetsuit, do you imply 3mm? I would consider this lightweight, 6mm standard and 8mm heavyweight. I have both 3mm and 6mm farmer johns, so am aware of the significant extra insulation of the 6mm suit. Allan Singleton www.voyager.co.nz/~alsjfs/ now with paddling photos of Bay of Islands NZ. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Allan and Joyce Singleton" > I have both 3mm and 6mm farmer johns, so am aware of the significant extra > insulation of the 6mm suit. > --And likely also the increased stiffness. Wetsuits over 3 mm may be a little warmer, but they are much stiffer. They seem to be more suited to SCUBA diving, wherein you are submerged for much longer periods of time. Typically, a diver does not require the range of arm motion a paddler does. A full wetsuit could limit movement and produce chafing around the arms. For a canoeist, having your knees bent at this thickness would cut off circulation to the lower legs. In addition, divers wetsuits are thick because they will be compressed by water pressure at depth, and probably would wind up with about the same level of insulation as a 3mm anyway..... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The best quote I ever heard on the subject came from Ken Fink of Poseidon Kayaks in Maine: "Whitewater kayakers are usually never far from shore, so their reality is different. If you really find yourself in a bad situation in sea kayaking, you have a lot of time to ponder your impending death" (I may have not gotten it 100% his words, but the meaning comes through) In short, I sweat it out in my drysuit if the water's cold. Much better chance I'll be able to write up the accident report for you all myself. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Wayne Smith wsmith16_at_snet.net Check out my sea kayaking & homebrewing page: http://pages.cthome.net/wsmith16/home.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Mastalski <mastalski_at_engr.wisc.edu> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 9:55 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Protection for immersion... > I have a question regarding what is the appropriate dress when immersion in > cold water is a possibility. For example, as many of you may know NRS > makes your standard 3 millimeter neoprene wetsuit and then they make the > Hydro Skin. I love the Hydro Skin as it is much more comfortable and > doesn't have that clammy feeling against your skin. The downside however > is that it does not have the R-factor of the neoprene, meaning it does not > provide for as much insulation, something important if immersion in cold > water is a possibility. Where I run into trouble is when I'm trying to > figure out what to wear on a July 4th paddle in Lake Superior. The air may > be 80 degrees, but darn that water is still plenty cold. Certainly I'd > love to be wearing Hydro Skin on such a warm day, but if immersion were to > occur, I'm guessing that the Hydro Skin would not provide sufficient core > warmth. Do some of you always wear a dry suit to protect against > immersion, regardless of the air temperature? Is there a recommended water > temperature where it is appropriate to always wear a dry suit, not just a > wetsuit? I've often heard the 110 degree rule, meaning if the water and > air temperature combined are under 110 degrees Fahrenheit, you should be > wearing a dry suit, but is this too simple a rule? I have whitewater > kayaked for eight years now and dressing for that is simple since I find > myself upside-down plenty. However, I find myself struggling against > dressing appropriately for a warm day on cold water when sea > kayaking. Cold day, cold water, no problem. Warm day, warm water, no > problem. There's probably no one answer, since each person weighs risk of > immersion differently. What would you suggest to a novice paddler getting > into the sport and asking for your educated suggestion? > > Thanks and happy paddling. > > Mark Mastalski > > ************************************************************************** * > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > ************************************************************************** * > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark and Gang, I paddle Lake Superior and have a Hydro Skin setup (I have the long pants, a short-sleeved shirt and a long-sleeved shirt), I also have a GoreTex drysuit. By July I am wearing the Hydro Skin. July can get pretty damn hot. This is an important but, this is what I wear when I am paddling the North Shore or the Apostle's. If I was undertaking a longer crossing, paddling during stormy weather or dicey conditions, or even solo, I would wear the drysuit which I at least always pack in case these conditions arise. July can also bring some pretty nasty storms. The BWCA storm was on the weekend of the 4th and we're lucky we didn't loose anyone during that little blow. I also carry a drytop in my cockpit kneetube when I am wearing the Hydro Skin in case the weather turns inclement. Would I survive if I had to swim a couple of miles in nothing but Hydro Skin? Maybe not, but I try to avoid that and the conditions that would cause such an unfortunate demise. In other words, always take as many options as you can. Then again, you'd be surprised at what you see people wearing on Superior. -Patrick At 8:55 AM -0500 4/3/01, Mark Mastalski wrote: >[SNIP] > Where I run into trouble is when I'm trying to figure out what to >wear on a July 4th paddle in Lake Superior. The air may be 80 >degrees, but darn that water is still plenty cold. Certainly I'd >love to be wearing Hydro Skin on such a warm day, but if immersion >were to occur, I'm guessing that the Hydro Skin would not provide >sufficient core warmth. Do some of you always wear a dry suit to >protect against immersion, regardless of the air temperature? > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Patrick Maun wrote: > I paddle Lake Superior and have a Hydro Skin setup (I have the long > pants, a short-sleeved shirt and a long-sleeved shirt), I also have a > GoreTex drysuit. By July I am wearing the Hydro Skin. July can get > pretty damn hot. Present Great Lakes surface water temps and 365 day avi of Great Lakes surface water temps: http://coastwatch.glerl.noaa.gov/glsea/glsea.html I can't see a full drysuit being of any great advantage over several other options on Superior on most July and August days simply because well before dumping, you'd end up in a big baggie filled with sweat, which severely diminishes its value. Better than nothing? Certainly, but not significantly better than other options. As far as swimming in Superior in July goes, its cold but doable on most days. I bathe on the North Shore of Superior regularly in July and August after paddling and setting up camp. Would I be able to swim a few miles in hydroskins, or polypro and a shell (polypro being far less effective than hydroskins)? I doubt it, but I'd be good for twenty or more minutes, making rescue possible unless I was alone and lost my boat. By the same token though, I would not be able to swim a few miles in my sweat filled drysuit -- bob about yes, but swim a long distance in a reasonable time no. Since I often do not come across others in many of the places I paddle, bobbing until rescue is not an option. But even if I wanted to wear a drysuit on a typical hot sunny day on Superior in July and August, I can't. I am precluded from wearing a full drysuit due to heat prostration. I'm not talking about discomfort. I mean actual incapacity due to overheating. So where does that leave me? I dress for immersion as far as possible, but I do not wear a full drysuit in good weather in July and August. If I plan on paddling beyond swimming distance from shore, I paddle with others who are capable of fishing me out (just as I am capable of fishing them out). I have a bombproof roll and keep practiced in reentry. I am highly practiced in rough water paddling. Most importantly, I keep a very close eye on the weather, and do not venture off shore if foul weather is in the offing -- the key being very conservative in judgment. I believe that it all comes down to Superior being significantly more risky than the other Great Lakes due to its temperature, and clothing only being one part of the challenge in mitigating the risk. Superior requires a paddler's full skill set. Richard Culpeper Thunder Bay *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The neoprene used for SCUBA diving is totally different from that used for surface use. At 90 feet, the best neoprene will be compressed to a fraction of it's original thickness. One of the neoprene manufacturers has a neat display they use at the trade shows. They have various samples of neoprene inside a pot sized pressure chamber with a window. They bring it down to 100 feet and you can see significant differences amongst the various brands and types of neoprene. Neoprene for surface use has much less neoprene and more air, consequently it's more flexible and more comfortable.Thus one shouldn't use a diver's wet suit for surface sports and vice-versa. > > > --And likely also the increased stiffness. Wetsuits over 3 mm may be a > little warmer, but they are much stiffer. They seem to be more suited to > SCUBA diving, wherein you are submerged for much longer periods of time. > Typically, a diver does not require the range of arm motion a paddler does. > A full wetsuit could limit movement and produce chafing around the arms. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The idea has been kicking around as to how much protection to have in terms of cold water protective clothing. There is no real answer especially for areas where you have a period of time in which air temperatures rise while water temperatures remain cold. So you have San Francisco or Lake Superior (cold water year round, seasonal high air temperatures) or the Middle Atlantic area such as NYC or DC (transitional periods of cold water, warm air tempertures). Products like HydroSkin or Watersports Polartec or Fuzzy Rubber are an answer as long as you recognize that the cold water exposure protection they give you is limited to X minutes or so; and, moreover, once you are back in your boat may leave you chilled (with HydroSkin and Fuzzy Rubber being somewhat better than the Polartec unless you have a paddle jacket over it). I think it was Matt who pointed out that the fellow who died on the lower Potomac recently would have probably died even in a dry suit with tons of insulation under it if exposed long enough in the water (say that he went over late in the day and was in the water overnight). So what are your choices? Dress for _both_ the air and the water. Now before you rush to keystroking a reply, hear me out. At some point, you have to concede to air temperature or at least have some provision for cooling down. While one can actually wear a dry suit (even a coated one) into pretty high temperatures (my limit has been days up to about 70 in my coated one), at such higher air temperatures you do need to vent. That lets out a dry suit unless you want to paddle with the zipper open which has its potential dangers and drawbacks and is not advisable. That also lets out a dry top I would think since it won't vent at the wrists. I have a dry top and never have understood their functionality unless it is one with a latex neck as well as latex sleeves. Most sold today do not have latex necks and would likely get water trapped in the sleeves in a capsize and seriously affect your re-entry attempts. So a normal paddle jacket would do well here worn over one of those products mentioned in the first paragraph above. Something like HydroSkin in a two layer setup of a shirt over a farmer john of the stuff would be pretty good. You could vent at the sleeves and neck and if you capsize, cold water would not be constantly flushing in and out of the jacket in any great amounts as it would not be coming through the material itself. This would help the insulation below (HydroSkin or similar light stuff) work somewhat better. Wear the full regalia on those cold-water/warm-air days and vent or cool down often. People talk about the roto-cooling of rolling. If you are confident in your roll and don't mind the shock of hitting the cold water while super heated from paddling and the warm air, do so. But, face it, well over half of paddlers, even those in this illustrious PaddleWise group, do not have a reliable roll or can't roll at all (I think 80 per cent is still a good figure for the overall non-rolling reliably paddling population). If paddling alone, it is amazing how much dropping your wrists and forearms into the water will cool you off or that old dip-hat-in-water routine of cooling off. If paddling with others, just hang on to their bow and lower part of your lower body into the water. Again, such compromise arrangements that would span warm air paddling over cold water are limited in how much immersion protection they will give you. You really only have minutes to self-rescue, i.e. maybe 15 minutes or so tops depending on just how cold the water is. After that you may not be functioning well enough to self-rescue. Obviously in such situations, you can't afford to lose your boat as you will not be able to swim to shore. (BTW, it was the other Ralph who talked about having swim fins, which Matt questioned in terms of where to keep them on you since your boat would leave with them. I am of the have-a-helium-balloon school of such quick get to shore backups :-)). The point is that warm-air/cold-water days or season are the most insidious in their threat. All you can do is work out some compromise spanning the two opposites that will work the 99.99 percent of the time you are upright paddling and the 0.01 percent of the time you might possibly be in the water. ralph diaz -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "ralph diaz" <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com> To: "Richard Culpeper" <culpeper_at_tbaytel.net>; <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2001 11:07 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Protection for immersion... > (BTW, it was the other Ralph who talked about having swim fins, which Matt > questioned in terms of where to keep them on you since your boat would leave > with them. I am of the have-a-helium-balloon school of such quick get to > shore backups :-)). I like the jet-pack idea, personally, although I've delayed setting aside space in my Mad Scientist Lab until I work out the specifics regarding adverse impacts on rolling and bracing! > The point is that warm-air/cold-water days or season are the most insidious > in their threat. All you can do is work out some compromise spanning the > two opposites that will work the 99.99 percent of the time you are upright > paddling and the 0.01 percent of the time you might possibly be in the > water. > Seriously, this is an important question, and I'm interested in seeing how others solve this riddle...I come from the dress for immersion school and roll to cool down--imperfect I know... Don't sweat it, Craig *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mark Mastalski wrote: >> <I have a question regarding what is the appropriate dress when immersion >> in >> cold water is a possibility. > > Mark: I wear hyroskin too, under a dry top and fortified with fleece layers, Chotta boots, and a fuzzy rubber helmet with chin strap. This has handled Lake Superior paddling for me but I am hoping strongly never to come out of the boat. If I dress more properly for immersion with 3 mm wet suit bottom and dry top and get hot, nothing beats regular rolling to cool off. Dennis *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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