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From: Christian <rebel_at_snip.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Wed, 16 May 2001 22:19:48 -0400
Hello to all my fellow Aquaphilics,
     I have mainly been lurking on here for the past few months soaking up
the knowledge and experiences of the group. I have been an avid canoeist
since my early teens(I am now 37) and decided to try kayaking last summer.
>From the moment my paddle first touched the water, I was hooked. I demo'ed
over 15 boats before settling on a Wilderness Systems Sealution IIxs with a
rudder for my first. I use it mainly on the local rivers but also in the
back channels and bays here in Southern New Jersey.
   Ok, enough rambling on for now. Because I don't have any friends who are
interested in watersports, I need your help. Please don't laugh if these
questions sound silly or strange. I bought a shorty wetsuit by NRS for use
during those chilly days and it feels pretty snug. How tight are they
supposed to feel and are you supposed to wear underwear under them or not?
(Hey...I told you not to laugh!!!)  I wont even get into my rolling
questions yet.
  If there is anyone out there in my area who would like a paddling partner
to practice rolls with or just share the trip let me know.

   Thanks in advance for your help
           Christian


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From: Whyte, David <david.whyte_at_amsa.gov.au>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 15:56:16 +1000
Hi Christian

I use a shorty wetsuit most of the time for paddling except in summer
and find it very comfortable. Mine is tight but I think this is more to
do with middle age spread rather than buying a tight wet suit. I find
when they are wet they stretch a bit more and being tight is not a
problem. I would think they would trap the air better when tight.

I normally wear a small pair of swimmers under mine and, depending on
the weather, a thermal top for most trips. For multi-day trips I will
sometimes not wear anything underneath as I find the swimmers (or
underwear) tends to rub at the top of the groin on. You just have to be
careful whose around when you take the wetsuit off though I have noticed
that sea kayakers are not to bashful

Cheers
David
Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: Christian [mailto:rebel_at_snip.net]
Sent: Thursday, 17 May 2001 12:20 PM
To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net
Subject: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie


Hello to all my fellow Aquaphilics,
     I have mainly been lurking on here for the past few months soaking
up
the knowledge and experiences of the group. I have been an avid canoeist
since my early teens(I am now 37) and decided to try kayaking last
summer.
>From the moment my paddle first touched the water, I was hooked. I
demo'ed
over 15 boats before settling on a Wilderness Systems Sealution IIxs
with a
rudder for my first. I use it mainly on the local rivers but also in the
back channels and bays here in Southern New Jersey.
   Ok, enough rambling on for now. Because I don't have any friends who
are
interested in watersports, I need your help. Please don't laugh if these
questions sound silly or strange. I bought a shorty wetsuit by NRS for
use
during those chilly days and it feels pretty snug. How tight are they
supposed to feel and are you supposed to wear underwear under them or
not?
(Hey...I told you not to laugh!!!)  I wont even get into my rolling
questions yet.
  If there is anyone out there in my area who would like a paddling
partner
to practice rolls with or just share the trip let me know.

   Thanks in advance for your help
           Christian


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From: Blaauw, Niels <nblaauw_at_foxboro.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 07:23:02 -0400
Christian wrote:
>>>
 I bought a shorty wetsuit by NRS for use
during those chilly days and it feels pretty snug. How tight are they
supposed to feel and are you supposed to wear underwear under them or not?
<<<

The way to dress while kayakking is depending on conditions ( air
temperature, water temperature, sea state), your skills ( how likely is a
capsize) and personal taste ( do you prefer to overheat while kayakking, or
undercool while swimming).

A few tips might help:

- If your wetsuit is uncomfortably tight while wearing underwear, don't wear
underwear;
- If the rubber scrapes your skin while paddling, do wear underwear;
- If you think your private parts might get stuck in the zipper, wear
underpants;
- If your wetsuit gets too smelly, burn it;
- If you think you look rediculous wearing tight rubber, wear something on
top of it.

Seriously: If you browse the web, you will find people telling you to wear
full wetsuits, half wetsuits with drytops, underwear, no underwear, fleece
instead of rubber, rubber instead of fleece, hats, caps, helmets,
scullcaps...

Just try different combinations and find out what is most comfortable with
your climate, your preferences, your tolerance of heat and cold, your
standards of decency and your taste in fashion. While trying you will
probably have a couple of uncomfortable trips, but that's just part of the
learning curve.

Personally, when I wear a wetsuit, I combine it with underpants and a
stretchfleece shirt, under a semi-drytop. I wear surf booties with socks.
Whenever possible, I leave the wetsuit at home and dress in a suit of
stretchfleece and a drytop.

Happy paddling,

Niels.



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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:15:18 EDT
In a message dated 01-05-16 22:30:31 EDT, you write:

<< Please don't laugh if these questions sound silly or strange. I bought a 
shorty wetsuit by NRS for use during those chilly days and it feels pretty 
snug. How tight are they supposed to feel and are you supposed to wear 
underwear under them or not? (Hey...I told you not to laugh!!!) >>

Laugh!  Not at all.  I was going to write and tell the list that I actually 
went out and bought one yesterday.  Try being short and fat and then try on 
different wetsuits.  The men's one with short zippers at the back couldn't 
get past my hips.  The others were really hard to pull up.   I guess the 3mm 
doesn't have as much stretch as lighter weights.

 I was wondering if I was supposed to wear a bathing suit underneath.

The only one I found that fit and, fortunately, I liked (ie it wasn't black 
with midnight blue!) was a woman's one but was made for someone flatchested.  
I kinda stretched out the neoprene and can cover everything but it certainly 
leaves the shoulders and back exposed.  

It's the Aura 2/1 Shorty by Body Glove. In purple, black, white.  I paid $80 
for it at Sports Authority.  I called Body Glove to see how I could get more 
upper coverage and he told me they make a matching surfing jacket for about 
$58.  

I'm leaving for CA tomorrow so they gave me the # of a dive shop in La Jolla 
(about 20 mins from San Diego) and they will order it for me.  

I found out that the 2/1 means that the top part is 1 mm neoprene and the 
hips/legs are mostly 2mm neoprene.  Perhaps I would have been better with 3 
mm, but they didn't have any (I won't remove the tags in case the dive shop 
in CA has a better selection).

I reckon that this lighter weight one would get more use if I use it on 
certain trips in the winter months in florida.  

I had always thought that whenever I did buy a wetsuit I would get one with a 
relief zipper.  Body Glove doesn't make any with zippers.  Soooo, I asked, 
what do you do if you need to pee?   Me, personally, he said?  "I just let it 
go.....they are designed to allow water to go in and out...Just rinse it 
well."

So, Christian, that may be the answer to another unasked question.

Sandy Kramer aka Baby Beluga

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From: Christian <rebel_at_snip.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 16:59:17 -0400
Fortunately my NRS Shortie comes with a double zipper in front so I didn't
have to ask that question. LOL

Christian


--- Original Message -----

> I had always thought that whenever I did buy a wetsuit I would get one
with a
> relief zipper.  Body Glove doesn't make any with zippers.  Soooo, I asked,
> what do you do if you need to pee?   Me, personally, he said?  "I just let
it
> go.....they are designed to allow water to go in and out...Just rinse it
> well."
>
> So, Christian, that may be the answer to another unasked question.
>



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From: Bob Denton <gulfstream_at_flinet.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 22:16:49 -0400
We say there are two kinds of divers..those that pee in their wet suits
and those that lie about it! That's why there's Sink the Stink!

cya



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From: Bob Denton <gulfstream_at_flinet.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 17:56:21 -0400
My memories of diving off LA are 55-60F water in 7mm wet suit which gave
me about a 1/2 hour dive time before I was in agony...and this was
before I lived in Florida! If I were you I would either rent a wet suit
or buy a used one from a dive or surf shop. A 2/1 (I believe it's
thinner in the extremities) is a joke. You would be better off in shorts
and a T-shirt so you won't be fooling yourself into thinking you had any
protection.

cu



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From: P.or.N. K. <peak_at_gis.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 20:32:23 -0400
At 17:56 -0400 05/17/01, Bob Denton wrote:
>My memories of diving off LA are 55-60F water in 7mm wet suit which gave
>me about a 1/2 hour dive time before I was in agony...


  Dear Bob and Friends,
	I do not mean to get to nit-picky but here is my two cents. 
If the water temperature is below 55 degrees I would prefer to wear 
my Goretex dry suit. Above that I consider a wetsuit OK, unless I am 
planning to do something a bit dodgy.    I grew up spending hours 
every day in water around 60 degrees, (swimming very fast).  Diving 
environments are very  different from kayaking environments, and 
individual responses also vary greatly. What is the context for your 
panning a 3mm farmer john with a drytop and a fleece top.   Did you 
dive deep, did you account for the thermoclines, ( sometimes 
startling variances in water temperature with a few feet of depth). 
For information lakes usually display a startling thermocline at 
about 8 feet, oceans also have dramatic ones, at varying levels. Are 
you considering the compression of the suit at depth?  Was your suit 
made of Rubatex, (one of the best at resisting compression) ore 
something else.  Are you built like a walrus (like me), or like a 
roadrunner,  (not much insulation, high surface area to mass ratio). 
I would recommend that any newbie rent a suit while they are getting 
top notch instruction, and make it a practice to spend 10 minutes in 
the water every trip, (I do mine at the end, practicing rescues). 
Obviously they should do this in company that can rescue them if they 
push it to far.  That will tell them how to prepare, and let them see 
how good their preparation is.  I do not even joke about cotton on 
the water.  I would rather wear vaseline, it's warmer and more fun 
;-).  In general wear the warmest comfy thing that you can stand.  A 
full  7 mm suit in 60 degree water, not for me!

All the best,

Peter Kalanzis


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From: Bob Denton <gulfstream_at_flinet.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 21:57:00 -0400
I'm losing you here? Sandy purchased a 2mm/1mm (Not a farmer John...1mm
AND 2mm) wet suit to paddle California?! I stated that the last time I
got wet in Cal, was in a 7MM wet suit, albeit diving, and found the
water temperature brutal. Before I moved to Florida, I could dive 76-77F
without a wet suit..now I need a 3mm suit for the low 80s! 

As you pointed out, acclimation is critical and the water Sandy and I
have been exposed to the past few weeks is 79-80F. If you point is that
she should have a dry top...no argument there. I have no paddled in
California waters but used to wave ski in South Africa which was similar
to Monterrey conditions. A quarter inch suit in mid summer was
necessary.

Please clarify you last post.

cya


> individual responses also vary greatly. What is the context for your 
> panning a 3mm farmer john with a drytop and a fleece top.   Did you 
> dive deep, 


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From: P.or.N. K. <peak_at_gis.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:34:19 -0400
At 21:57 -0400 05/17/01, Bob Denton wrote:
>I'm losing you here? Sandy purchased a 2mm/1mm (Not a farmer John...1mm
>AND 2mm) wet suit to paddle California?! I stated that the last time I
>got wet in Cal, was in a 7MM wet suit, albeit diving, and found the
>water temperature brutal. Before I moved to Florida, I could dive 76-77F
>without a wet suit..now I need a 3mm suit for the low 80s!


Dear Bob and Friends,

	Yes, your are right that a 2mm/1mm shortie is not sufficient 
for paddling until the water is pretty warm at surface (70 or so 
IMHO).  As I said paddle  in the warmest thing you can stand.  As far 
as panning a farmer john 3mm, you did not do it, My apologies for my 
errors.

	As far as using a 7 mm full suit for kayaking Califormia 
(north or south?) right now, I believe my analysis of issues holds 
well.  As far as waveskiing, wetsuits are notoriously poor at 
resisting wind chill.  Perhaps you and I are also relatively far 
apart on the cold sensitivity scale as well. As a follower of the way 
of the walrus :-),  I have been known to comfortably bask for 15 
minutes in waters that send fashion models running after a one minute 
dip, (true story, spring waterfall pools in western MA).  Note that 
most fashion models in this society are  very thin, and are not 
likely to have eaten much within the past few hours. I was  mostly 
writing for the newbies who might really think that a 7mm full suit 
is a wise investment for a typical sea kayaker, and I do not believe 
that. One would  have greatly diminished mobility in such a suit.  If 
you are in skilled company, have been practicing your rescues, and 
are not pushing your skill levels too far, I would recommend an  $80 
rainbow farmer john, and an inexpensive paddling jacket, and the 
polartec sitting in the closet, if you wanted to go cheap in waters 
over 55. If you are a newbie and do not meet the three conditions 
above, think twice about your safety, regardless of your gear. I 
would not recommend going cheap on the jacket, but I am not in charge 
of the universe [and there was much rejoicing  ;-) ]. Booties and 
head protection as well at the lower end of that range.   Again I 
believe the practices outlined at the end of my previous post are 
safe and will lead to sound decisions and equipment investments.   If 
a paddler is not comfortable after ten minutes of immersion, they 
are underdressed (IMHO),  (unless they are doing a short paddle in 
very safe conditions, have major skills and experience, and use their 
weather radio and their eyes, like religions objects).  If I were 
forced to consistently use  a full  7mm wet suit for kayaking,  with 
air  and water temperatures of 60 degrees, I wouldn't go kayaking 
:-(.  If  I  were diving  to 90 feet with a 70 degree surface water 
temperature in the US, I would plan on a couple of heavy thermoclines 
as well as a general temperature drop, and a water temp of 50 degrees 
or less  at depth (quite common); I would want a heavy full suit.  I 
do not want to get into a flaming situation and am truly sorry for my 
errors.  I  make no apologies for my general analysis and 
recommendations.  People of different constitutions, sensitivities, 
metabolisms, ages, skills, and standard practices will have differing 
needs and views.



All the best,

Peter Kalanzis


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From: Bob Denton <gulfstream_at_flinet.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Fri, 18 May 2001 07:59:27 -0400
The problem is that I wouldn't enjoy paddling in a 7mm wet suit. I
rented mine in San Pedro and remember feeling like The Michelin Man at
the time. Even my own 6mm hasn't been out of the closet for years and
only gets used for diving the FL Springs.

When I lived in Cape Town, I could handle 30 to 45 minutes in the water
without a wet suit in mid summer. I guess temperatures were in the low
60s with air temps in the high 90s. Today, I don't get wet unless the
water is really close to 80F or above.

Again, Sandy should really re-think her whole program. Cold water is a
killer!

Btw I went to high school in Lenox. Which waterfalls are you referring
to?

cya



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From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 12:17:51 EDT
In a message dated 01-05-17 07:50:04 EDT, you write:

<< If you think you look rediculous wearing tight rubber, wear something on
 top of it. >>

Anyone know where I can get an old-fashioned bathing dress?

sandy kramer the baby beluga

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From: Looze, John & Donna <looze_at_gemstate.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Wetsuit sizing help needed for Newbie
Date: Thu, 17 May 2001 14:45:35 -0600
As stated, it is part of the learning curve.  You should  wear under what you
want.  My family, men and women, always wear a bathing suit.  For protection
eg, from sun or trees, we add a polypro long sleeve shirt.  If the suit is
snug (no gaps when bending), as it should be, pile would probably be best
outside.  But, if it is cold enough to add pile, it might be time for a
drysuit, or top.


    JKL






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