Pipeguy55_at_aol.com says: > I'm also new to this style of paddle, but not new to kayaking and I agree > with all of your points in the post. My question to you or others is this: > Do you still use your original paddle or has the "traditional" paddle become > the exclusive paddle of choice. > I pretty much use the high-aspect ratio paddles exclusively-. Currently that's a Werner Arctic Wind (sort of a pseudo-Greenland paddle) and a Feathercraft Klatwa. The one exception is in my double, where I use a pair of Bending Branches Journey paddles when paddling with a partner, because of the width of the kayak. If I take the double (a Klepper Aerius II) out as a single, which is rare, I also use a long Euro-style paddle. Of course, even my Euro-style paddles are pretty high aspect ratio. My very first kayak paddle was an original Werner Little Dipper. > The reason I'm asking is that it seems to me > that on high wind or rough water conditions, and on long trips the Greenland > paddle would be a better choice. On light wind and short trips, or if I feel > like "getting aerobic" for a half-hour the Werner Camano is my weapon of > choice. I have heard it advised to find a paddle you like and stick with it, > but so far I don't have a problem switching between the two styles. > If it works, why not? The main object is, after all, to have fun! -- mike ------------------------- Michael Edelman mje_at_spamcop.net http://www.foldingkayaks.org http://www.findascope.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/19/01 2:25:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mje_at_spamcop.net writes: > , I'm still a newcomer to this style of paddle, but my > experience suggests a few possible hypotheses: > > < 4 snips > Hello Michael, I'm also new to this style of paddle, but not new to kayaking and I agree with all of your points in the post. My question to you or others is this: Do you still use your original paddle or has the "traditional" paddle become the exclusive paddle of choice. The reason I'm asking is that it seems to me that on high wind or rough water conditions, and on long trips the Greenland paddle would be a better choice. On light wind and short trips, or if I feel like "getting aerobic" for a half-hour the Werner Camano is my weapon of choice. I have heard it advised to find a paddle you like and stick with it, but so far I don't have a problem switching between the two styles. Feel free to get technical, I can handle it! Thanks, Steve Schmitz *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Pipeguy55_at_aol.com wrote: > < My question to you or others is this: > Do you still use your original paddle or has the "traditional" paddle become > the exclusive paddle of choice. > If I can horn in on this dialogue: I switched to a (3 1/2" wide blade, 86" long, 24"loom) white spruce Greenland paddle (produced by Peter Pestalozzi of Odyysey Designs in Duluth) about a year ago. Every so often I'll try a Euro paddle again (I own several - a Mid-Swift, a CD Medusa, etc) to see if I'm missing something; I'm not. The Greenland paddle and my 72" storm paddle are all I use now. > <The reason I'm asking is that it seems to me > that on high wind or rough water conditions, and on long trips the Greenland > paddle would be a better choice. On light wind and short trips, or if I feel > like "getting aerobic" for a half-hour the Werner Camano is my weapon of > choice. Today, on a local chain of lakes, I ran into one of the fittest and most skillful paddlers in the area. He regularly paddles in any kind of water in Lake Superior and can do 40 mile days at a fast pace (4 to 4.5 knots pace). He is younger and far fitter than I, so I joined him today and cruised for a bit at his quick tempo (he uses Lendals) with no difficulty. Then I asked him if we could sprint for a bit to see how far behind I might be left with my jGreenland blades. It didn't happen, I stayed with him to very near hull speed and did not drop behind. Given our relative fitness levels, the only (subjective) conclusion I can come to is that my Greenland paddle IS as efficient as his Euro paddle. Oh, by the way , we both paddle Nordkapp Jubilees and are about the same size. Dennis - St. Paul > >*************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 1:26 PM -0500 5/20/01, Dennis, Becky & Natalie wrote: > >Today, on a local chain of lakes, I ran into one of the fittest and >most skillful >paddlers in the area. He regularly paddles in any kind of water in >Lake Superior >and can do 40 mile days at a fast pace (4 to 4.5 knots pace). He is >younger and >far fitter than I, so I joined him today and cruised for a bit at >his quick tempo >(he uses Lendals) with no difficulty. Then I asked him if we could >sprint for a >bit to see how far behind I might be left with my jGreenland blades. >It didn't >happen, I stayed with him to very near hull speed and did not drop >behind. Given >our relative fitness levels, the only (subjective) conclusion I can come to is >that my Greenland paddle IS as efficient as his Euro paddle. Oh, by >the way , we >both paddle Nordkapp Jubilees and are about the same size. > This means that you are able to apply about as much propulsion force with your paddle as he did to his. It does not say anything about which is more efficient. And if you were near hull speed, then one of you may have been applying more force, but the boat just couldn't really go any faster. This is what makes the discussion so confusing. Anybody can do a test like yours and it would seem that you have answered the paddle efficiency question. But unless you do some test which measure how much energy each of you expended to create the force to make you go that fast, you still don't know anything about the efficiency. -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ya know, there are a lot of different styles of boats available today each designed with it's own purpose and characteristics. A K-1 would be pretty lousy for surfing. A surf kayak would be pretty lousy for touring. Even among the "touring" kayaks there are any number of different designs and styles available to fit the individuals needs and desires. Is there one single kayak design out there that surpasses all the others for efficiency? I sincerely doubt it. especially since each one of us probably has our own definition of what efficiency in a kayak is. When you get right down to it, a kayak is not the "most efficient" choice for doing much of anything. I could carry a lot more gear more easily in a power boat. I could go a whole lot faster as well. But that's not really the point of this sport is it? As several other people have pointed out, we're here to have fun. And I'll bet each one of us has his or her own definition of what fun is as well. If my idea of fun is paddling my own homebuilt skin on frame boat and propelling it with a hand carved Inuit style paddle, so be it. If I want the fastest kevlar touring boat available which I can push really fast with a carbon fiber wing paddle, well that's fine too. Neither one is right or wrong. They're just different styles. And so it is in kayak paddles as well. I have no doubt that some paddle designs are superior to others in performing certain tasks. If all you are interested in is pushing your boat as fast as possible over a short course, then we can probably narrow the field as to what paddles would be the best suited to your needs. The same thing applies to long distance touring, or surfing or rolling or what have you. But if you are looking for one paddle that can do it all, then I think you are simply going to have to settle on some compromise. Just what and where that compromise is will be up to the individual. I enjoy experimenting with different kinds of equipment. And while much of these techie discussions about paddle and boat designs are a bit over my head, I still try to wade through them and understand what I can. I think it's fascinating, and I am in awe of the people who do seem to have a solid grasp of this stuff. I do hope you folks keep it coming. I figure the more I read about it, the better the chance that some of it will sink in. And while I think we really should try to be civil in our discussions, I particularly enjoy the debates from opposing sides. I think hearing both sides of any argument is really the best way to try to figure out just where the truth lies. Anyways, just my two cents. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:48 AM 5/20/01 EDT, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > I enjoy experimenting with different kinds of equipment. And while much of >these techie discussions about paddle and boat designs are a bit over my >head, I still try to wade through them and understand what I can. I think >it's fascinating, and I am in awe of the people who do seem to have a solid >grasp of this stuff. I do hope you folks keep it coming. I figure the more I >read about it, the better the chance that some of it will sink in. And while > Anyways, just my two cents. It's been a while since we've had a good technical knock down, drag out on P-wise, and I think a few people have forgotten what it's like to have people like Matt, Nick and John throwing equations at each other. (BTW, welcome back, John -- we've missed you!) But, I had an interesting time today trying several paddles, and think I learned something useful. It was a beautiful spring day today -- a light breeze, warm, but not exceptionally so -- I figured that it wouldn't be particularly good for observing the coefficient of exposure demonstrated by various bikinis along the way, but was proved wrong. Two regular paddle partners and I had decided to do an easy paddle, just to enjoy the day. Problem: my regular paddle is momentarily deadlined, waiting for varnish to dry after I sanded out a few scratches. Just to have something to use, I grabbed a paddle I had laying around. This is an aluminum shaft job, big plastic blades, and rather heavy, but cheap -- I think I paid $44 for it, just to have something around when I needed a spare paddle. But, inspired by the discussion on Paddlewise the past few days, I asked a buddy to bring along his Superior Inuit paddle. I've played with it a couple times, but never for any distance. Well, we took our time, and I was continually struggling to keep up with it, churning out a stroke rate perhaps twice the normal rate. It took us over an hour to go about three miles, although I will admit that we stopped for a while to look at some guys playing with some loud, fast RC model boats. I'd hate to take one of those in the side of the hull when it was going full bore, but so would the owner -- we discovered that they cost about three grand each! But, I digress. My arms were getting pretty tired from the high stroke rate, partly due to the weight that has to get moved around (arms plus paddle), and partly due to the fact that I didn't feel that the blades had bite enough to keep the boat on course in a gusty crosswind -- to the point where I put the rudder down for the first time this year. I was rather glad to get up to the break point, where I put the Inuit paddle under the deck lines, and dug out the aluminum and plastic cheapie I'd brought along just in case. We made the trip back in considerably less time, in spite of the heavier feel of the cheapie, its better bite of the water meant that my stroke rate was something I was more comfortable with, in spite of the feeling that I was putting more effort into each stroke. We stopped again, sat on the shore, drank cool drinks, and watched boats and pontoons go up and down the narrow channel, most loaded with people, a few of them wearing colorful high exposure coefficent immersion gear. After a while, we got going again. My buddy decided he wanted to paddle with the Inuit paddle for a while, so I put the aluminum cheapie back under the deck lines, and took his regular paddle, which is a carbon-fiber Epic that weighs only 17 or 19 ounces -- You barely feel like there's anything there, and although it's supposed to be stronger than dirt, I didn't feel like putting any stress on it. While it's not supposed to break, it would be painful to replace. Worse, it's a one-piece, with a fixed right control, and I'm the only person I know that paddle left control (carpial tunnel is involved). I was probably slower with this paddle than with the others, only because I had to stop and think about what I was doing. So long as I could remember to keep my right wrist moving, it was fine, but if I stopped thinking about it, sooner or later I'd control the wrong hand, and Whoops! Unfortunately, for some of the distance we followed a pontoon loaded with high school girls wearing, well, you guessed it, and keeping my mind on my paddling was difficult. At the turnaround point, I switched back to the cheapie, which now really felt like lead, but at least which I could control. On the way back, I reflected that much of paddle selection is involved in a personal decision, and in what you are used to and comfortable with. No doubt, I could get a little more comfortable with either of the odd paddles, given time, and the Inuit paddle has some distinct advantages in things like recoveries. But, for the time being, I think I'm going to send this off and get another coat of varnish on my regular paddle. -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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At 9:48 AM -0400 5/20/01, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: > Ya know, there are a lot of different styles of boats available today each >designed with it's own purpose and characteristics. A K-1 would be pretty >lousy for surfing. A surf kayak would be pretty lousy for touring. Even among >the "touring" kayaks there are any number of different designs and styles >available to fit the individuals needs and desires. Is there one single kayak >design out there that surpasses all the others for efficiency? I sincerely >doubt it. especially since each one of us probably has our own definition of >what efficiency in a kayak is. <snip> While I don't agree that the definition of "efficiency" changes, I do think that different kinds of paddling or paddlers will require different techniques and different paddles to perform at the most efficient level. Efficiency is just the ability to go farther/faster with the same effort, or going the same distance/speed with less effort. Given a choice, everyone would prefer the most efficient. And the right paddle is one aspect of this ability. The best paddle for each person and their paddling goals will be different. But since all paddles work by making water move, the same principles will apply to all paddles regardless of the generic type. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I switch around among my two greenland paddles (different lenghths and different weights) and my two euro paddles (Werner's San Juan & Camano). I like to try all of them, and sometimes one feels right and sometimes another. Also, I paddle with a BCU affiliated company, and all of the instruction and assessment is with euro paddles. I have some rotator cuff problems, and when my shoulders bother me, the greenland paddle is definitely better for me. Also, the greenland paddle makes bracing and rolling so easy that I feel like I'm cheating if I don't try to do it with the euro paddle too. Joan My question to you or others > is this: > Do you still use your original paddle or has the "traditional" > paddle become > the exclusive paddle of choice. The reason I'm asking is that it > seems to me > that on high wind or rough water conditions, and on long trips the > Greenland > paddle would be a better choice. On light wind and short trips, or > if I feel > like "getting aerobic" for a half-hour the Werner Camano is my > weapon of > choice. I have heard it advised to find a paddle you like and stick > with it, > but so far I don't have a problem switching between the two styles. > Feel > free to get technical, I can handle it! > > Thanks, > Steve Schmitz > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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