James Tibensky" <jtibensky_at_msn.com> wrote: >>>>>>>John F. said that the last half of the sweep is the stronger part. Maybe I'm put together funny [it wouldn't be the first time I've been told this] but, for me, there is no question that the first half of a forward sweep is far stronger.... <<<<<<< I'm not sure what you mean by this but whether the first or last part of a sweep intended to turn the kayak is stronger or not is probably immaterial. If you are moving forward the very last part of a sweep stroke will have the most effect on turning even if the effort is the same because there is less pressure on the stern half of a forward moving kayak and therefore it takes less effort to move the stern to the side than to move the bow to the side. Now a kayak with a slalom kayak bow and a Nordkapp HM stern might shift this balance enough to make me wrong for that kayak but in general the stern of a forward moving kayak moves to the side easier than the bow. This is part of the reason why a moving slalom kayak will spin out if not carefully guided with the paddle. >>>>>>>.I also paddle well past my hip but I don't lift the water, I push it outward. I don't know how a longer stroke makes it a sweep. Did I miss something? Although I do, as seems best, keep the blade "very close to the hull".<<<<<<< Any part of the stroke that is pushing in any direction other than straight back is likely to be less efficient unless the paddle can store that energy until it can be used during a more straight back time. This is why loading up the paddle early in the stroke (bending it slightly to store some energy) is better than loading it up after it has past the point of maximum efficiency. If the paddle is used in a sweep you loose energy to turning the kayak. If you keep the blade close to the kayak you loose energy to lifting water once the paddle blade passes perpendicular. The more passed perpendicular you are the more energy is wasted unnecessarily to fighting gravity. A keeping power on little way past perpendicular may well still be beneficial overall since it may still be more efficient than the losses inherent in the non-propelling parts of the extra strokes that result from a shorter stroke. On the same subject Mike wrote: >>>>>>>>I know one BCU instructor that states quite emphatically that this is completely wrong. He says that the water is too turbulent near the rear of the hull for the stroke to be effective and insists you stop just past the hip. I think he's wrong, IMNSHO, because the turbulent water is very close to the kayak and you'd have to whack the kayak with the blade to get into that region.<<<<<< I wonder if this was his own idea or straight from the BSU handbook? >>>>>Personally, I have a real problem with all these explanations. If you do a sweep stroke from the torso, with hands low (paddle shaft close to horizontal) and in a more or less static position relative to the body, you are applying a constant moment (torque)* that will turn the kayak regardless of the point where the paddle is inserted! Or to get to the point, the stroke is just as effective in turning at the front as at the back.<<<<<< True only if the kayak has no directional movement when you are doing this. In other words you are only spinning in place (and the kayak is symmetrical underwater--bow to stern). >>>>>>>>I wonder if the illusion that the power is at the back comes from the fact that the beginning of the stroke uses power to accelerate the kayak, while the later part of the sweep just maintains the rotation speed?<<<<<<< No, see above explanation. You could easily test this by just starting the acceleration from a different point in the stroke and only applying power for a given (shorter) time, rather than always starting the sweep near the bow. An experienced paddler soon learns this intuitively and knows it whatever bogus explanation they might come up with to explain it (like more turbulence in the back--true, but not the reason). A paddler soon learns that stern draws and pries are much more effective than bow strokes in controlling a kayak or canoe. This is also why the paddler in the stern of a canoe is the one that can control it the easiest. >>>>>>>I always do a sweep with a full rotation (as close to 180 degrees as I need) and often do a return stroke as a low brace. The latter keeps me confident if on a hard edge.<<<<<<< Lifting the elbow and kissing the water gently with the back of the blade on the return. Anybody who doesn't do this stroke should run right out and practice it. It will greatly increase your ability to turn quickly. To quote our paddling skills manual (on the website at least until my insurance company decides I should get rid of it:~( )-: "[NOTE: Turning strokes are all enhanced by tilting the kayak. Tilting in either direction helps but tilting to the outside of the turn works best because this not only lifts the ends of the kayak more out of the water (than when level), it also allows the stern keel to skid more easily. The more you tilt the kayak (not necessarily yourself) the quicker the turn. With practice you'll find you can lean the kayak over quite far (like dipping the coaming in the water) by adding some bracing component to the SWEEP strokes for security (e.g. high brace component on a forward sweep.) Lifting the elbow to do a skimming low brace on the return before the next stroke provides the security to maintain the strong lean between strokes. But we've gotten a little ahead of ourselves so on to the next group of strokes so you can catch up.]" Gabriel wrote: >>>>>>and now for something completely different- I was taught (ACA/BCU) the the primary sweep power is at the bow til 2:00, forward from 2-4:00, then strong sweep from 4-6:00.<<<<<<< Why does the time of day effect this? Is it a hormone thing? Is there a pill I can take to help even this out? ;-) Niels wrote: >>>>Anybody out there able to understand my reasoning?<<<< Please define "bowstroke" such as you used it in "A bowstroke at the stern,..." Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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