Rex Robertson wrote: - >The web site for Outdoorplay has a page on self rescue using a paddle float. >There is a serious flaw in the technique that is illustrated. The >victim/swimmer has let go of the kayak, with one paddle blade under the >bungie, she is out at the other blade putting the paddle float on. >Rule #1 when you capsize and wet exit it to NEVER let go of the kayak. Slip >one arm under a deck line (this is what perimeter lines are for) so you can >have both hands free and still have a hold on the kayak. The wind can >easily blow a kayak away faster than a person can swim to catch it. G' Day Self Rescue Enthusiasts, I've practised the paddlefloat reentry fairly regularly and sometimes find myself letting go of the boat and relying on the paddle being tethered to the boat. This worries me - it doesn't seem a good enough tether. Is there a case here for using a personal tether? After all one is unlikely to do a paddlefloat reentry in the surf where a tether might be dangerous? These days I never go out without a paddlefloat, which I'm prepared to use in a reentry and roll instead of the greater effort that goes into setting up the paddle under the bungies and climbing aboard. Our NSW Australia sea proficiency exam requires a non roll self rescue method in addition to being able to roll. So my non roll method is going to be using a paddlefloat in the reentry and roll manoevre. When I've asked local instructors whether this is acceptable they typically say yes but that its a good idea to know the conventional method, but they can't tell me why! Several skilled sea kayakers advised that if one exits a boat due to a blown roll not to repeat it but use the paddlefloat assisted reentry and roll instead. And I found this much simpler and faster than learning the conventional paddlefloat rescue. I wonder if it might be easier even for people who don't know how to roll. Please note my opinions are those of a novice kayaker - so I'm really asking for comment not intending to give advice! All the best, PeterO Who also helps with the Paddlewise Who's Who List so if you need to add an entry or make a modification my email address is rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 6/13/2001 3:11:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rexrob_at_mac.com writes: > Rule #1 when you capsize and wet exit it to NEVER let go of the kayak. Slip > one arm under a deck line (this is what perimeter lines are for) so you can > have both hands free and still have a hold on the kayak. The wind can > easily blow a kayak away faster than a person can swim to catch it. > This could have been a factor in the death of a kayaker here on the Potomac this past spring, Rex. Windy day, with the boat winding up in Virginia and the paddler winding up in Maryland. Agree with all that you've said --- except one thing: are you sure that you want to loop an arm under the perimeter lines while you rig a paddlefloat? If the wind is blowing, what's to keep it from rolling the boat --- and you --- a couple of times, potentially damaging your arm/shoulder in the process or keeping you under long enough to cause other air-breather problems? Keep a grip? --- sure, but loop an arm through a deck line in adverse conditions? Dunno, don't think so --- not me, anyway. Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Agree with all that you've said --- >except one thing: are you sure that you want to loop an arm under the >perimeter lines while you rig a paddlefloat? If the wind is blowing, what's >to keep it from rolling the boat --- and you --- a couple of times, >potentially damaging your arm/shoulder in the process or keeping you under >long enough to cause other air-breather problems? Keep a grip? --- sure, >but loop an arm through a deck line in adverse conditions? Dunno, don't >think so --- not me, anyway. >Jack Martin Are you talking about breaking surf? If so I would not be trying a paddle float rescue, I would get away from the kayak to the seaward side to avoid injury. If you are talking about a wind on open water then I'm not following you unless you are talking about a huge storm. If I'm swimming with my kayak, no matter how I'm holding onto it, the wind is not going to roll me and my boat. I've paddled in winds 40 knots with gusts to over 50 knots and the wind did not roll me so how do you figure my boat would get rolled, and roll me while I'm swimming next to it? You must be talking about large breaking waves which is bringing us to the question of the limits of when a outrigger self rescue is possible. Maybe we could get Matt Broze to address this. Are you out there Matt? Anyway Jack, we are agreed on my main point, NEVER let go of the kayak when you capsize. Side note: The cool thing about a 50 knot wind is seeing a gust rip across the surface and lift the water up and rain it down. Rex Roberton *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Generally, I've always seen it suggested that you leave the > paddlefloat on until you've attached your spray skirt and > pumped out the > water. I can see that with an electric, or foot operated pump. How about with a hand held pump? With my current set-up, the only way I can pump water out is by not fully attaching the spray-skirt. Do I have a bad set-up, or am I missing a trick or something? While I'm at it, I've had a problem with getting my legs tangled in my paddle-leash. I was told it's because I'm coming out backwards???? When upside down, I reach forward to release the skirt, then hold the sides of the coming, and do somewhat of a sumersault forward until my legs have cleared the cockpit. From that point, I just sort of move to the side of the boat and pop up to the surface. Is that incorrect? Rick - Poquoson, VA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick Sylvia wrote: > > Generally, I've always seen it suggested that you leave the > > paddlefloat on until you've attached your spray skirt and > > pumped out the > > water. > > I can see that with an electric, or foot operated pump. How about with a > hand held pump? With my current set-up, the only way I can pump water out > is by not fully attaching the spray-skirt. > > Do I have a bad set-up, or am I missing a trick or something? Nope, good critical reading on your part and as John intended but sequenced creatively. But as you imply, cover as much as possible. > > While I'm at it, I've had a problem with getting my legs tangled in my > paddle-leash. I was told it's because I'm coming out backwards???? When > upside down, I reach forward to release the skirt, then hold the sides of > the coming, and do somewhat of a sumersault forward until my legs have > cleared the cockpit. From that point, I just sort of move to the side of > the boat and pop up to the surface. Is that incorrect? It's a nice start reverse training for a re-entry and roll, but you are loosing an option and could possibly compromise a solid grip on the boat. I have to try it, but I am imagining that you would have to rotate around the back of the palm to get a grip on the coaming loosing the hold for a moment. The option you loose is the ability to splay your feet just under the cockpit rim to secure the boat freeing your arms to fend off sharks and mermaids (or filling a paddlefloat while enjoying the warm water as the lake was today). I really prefer an accessible paddle in lieu of the tether (I have seen some use a canoe, I like the storm paddle on the front deck), though I know a slew of paddlers I highly respect swear by the tether. I did have to chase my euro a couple of times today while playing with my storm. About the > -- ¤ Gabriel L Romeu ¤ http://studiofurniture.com + /diary or + /paint *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't remember all the details (and I haven't looked my voluminous notes on it lately) but I remember that "Kayaking: Whitewater and Touring Basics" was the worst book I had ever read on kayak touring. I don't especially like a lot of the books on sea kayaking and would disagree with some things in the best of them (except maybe in Fundamentals of Kayak Navigation, which I helped edit). Some are a lot better than others but this one was hands down the worst book on kayaking I've seen so far. As I remember, it seemed to me like almost everything in the text was backwards or bad advice at least in regards to the kayak touring part. Some nice pictures by my friend Joel Rogers in it though. The first copy I got a few years ago (when it first came out) is still on the store shelf as I wouldn't dare sell it to some poor unsuspecting new kayaker so warn them against buying it. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rex wrote: > Rule #1 when you capsize and wet exit it to NEVER let go of the kayak. Slip > one arm under a deck line (this is what perimeter lines are for) so you can > have both hands free and still have a hold on the kayak. The wind can > easily blow a kayak away faster than a person can swim to catch it. > Jack responded: ...are you sure that you want to loop an arm under the perimeter lines while you rig a paddlefloat? If the wind is blowing, what's to keep it from rolling the boat --- and you --- a couple of times, ...snip Good to hear from you Jack. Hope you are getting out in that Pintail as much as you should be. Hey, I agree with you in part regarding the arm entanglement issue, but do remember, the trouble with all illustrations and advice is that it is often "condition dependent". In light winds, securing attachment in that manner as a precautionary principle might be well appropriate. In breaking seas, sticking a leg in the cockpit while the boat is inverted might just be the better answer. In tests that I performed preparing for the in depth (pardon the pun) article on float rescues done for SK Magazine, the "leg-in" methodology had its draw backs too, in steep seas. I often just lurch over the hull. Geesh, on the west coast here, just blow up one of them inflatable fmale dolls, and you'll have 20 fishing boats zero in on you in seconds! 8-) Or just use anti-suicide sponsons. Unfortunately, there are no pat answers. So much depends upon the type of lines you have, the conditions present, how "fixed" the hold downs are, level of difficulty placing the blade under the deck lines (float on first vs float on after securing paddle to deck); and all this in relation to keeping contact with the kayak. Most paddlers haven't got a clue with respect to these variables in real life conditions (not PW'ers). That is part of the reason so many folks experience failure while others consider them such an unsafe device -- which is unfortunate. The actual float (inflatable or foam) isn't the problem, but the lack of _intimate_ practice in chaotic sea states is. Anyway, I applaud Rex for noticing the initial incongruities, but thumbs down to anybody suggesting pat answers -- especially ones that smack of a particular Association or Union's (etc.) way of always doing it. I'll crawl back into my "pink" hole now (my wife has me currently renovating the entire house with deep-pink painted walls and new snow-white crown moldings). Life will never be the same I fear. PS Matt is off PW for a bit with legal matters. I miss his measured remarks too. doug (pink stinks) lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Won't argue the point further about looping arms in decklines, Rex. Won't do it, either. Guess it's some primordial instruction I got in flight training --- just not keen about lashing into a moving object --- and I guess I was thinking of getting knocked down in nasty stuff with breaking waves. 'Nuff said. I like Doug's statement: "The actual float (inflatable or foam) isn't the problem,but the lack of _intimate_ practice in chaotic sea states is." That's what it's really all about --- practicing what you assume you can do may add new perspectives to your paddling, I guess. (The Pintail collects dust, Doug --- have returned to school to reinvent myself in my agedness. On top of that, there's just about no way to re-enter a Pintail except through the injection method!) Jack Martin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick - Poquoson, VA wrote: >>>>>>I can see that with an electric, or foot operated pump. How about with a hand held pump? With my current set-up, the only way I can pump water out is by not fully attaching the spray-skirt. Do I have a bad set-up, or am I missing a trick or something?<<<<<<< You should be able to get the pump down the front of your spraydeck where it goes around your waist and pump out from between your legs. >>>>>>While I'm at it, I've had a problem with getting my legs tangled in my paddle-leash. I was told it's because I'm coming out backwards???? When upside down, I reach forward to release the skirt, then hold the sides of the coming, and do somewhat of a sumersault forward until my legs have cleared the cockpit. From that point, I just sort of move to the side of the boat and pop up to the surface. Is that incorrect? <<<<<<< Seems good to me, I don't see how that would automatically tangle you with your paddle leash. Perhaps your paddle leash is too long. I like to use 3/16" shock cord for a paddle leash because it can be only a few feet long and still stretch enough during those few times I might need it to be longer. When high bracing or rolling I never notice it but, the shock cord must have stretched to accommodate those moves. I also like that the shock cord and clip are inexpensive and lightweight so it doesn't clack on my deck with every stroke like the phone cord ones and those with metal fittings tend to do. Phone cord type leashes also seem to have that annoying phone cord habit of entangling with itself and suddenly shortening the stretch range or be excessively heavy surfboard leash style. Regular non-stretchy cord needs to be nearly 5 feet long to accommodate rolls and high braces and often seems to get untucked from the storage place needed for its excess length and dragging in the water if not getting tangled with paddle park cleats and such. Rex Roberton wrote: >>>>>>If you are talking about a wind on open water then I'm not following you unless you are talking about a huge storm. If I'm swimming with my kayak, no matter how I'm holding onto it, the wind is not going to roll me and my boat. I've paddled in winds 40 knots with gusts to over 50 knots and the wind did not roll me so how do you figure my boat would get rolled, and roll me while I'm swimming next to it? You must be talking about large breaking waves which is bringing us to the question of the limits of when a outrigger self rescue is possible. Maybe we could get Matt Broze to address this. Are you out there Matt?<<<<<<< Yes contrary to what Doug Lloyd would have everyone believing I've been here all along. I see no need to comment as Rex is doing such an admirable job of saying just what I would have said (in his whole post not just the part I quoted). I agree with Doug on this as well. PeterO wrote: >>>>>>>G' Day Self Rescue Enthusiasts, I've practised the paddlefloat reentry fairly regularly and sometimes find myself letting go of the boat and relying on the paddle being tethered to the boat. This worries me - it doesn't seem a good enough tether. Is there a case here for using a personal tether? After all one is unlikely to do a paddlefloat reentry in the surf where a tether might be dangerous?<<<<<<<< There are several ways to hold the paddle firmly to the kayak but it is so critical that you don't loose the kayak in the wind I would employ several of them and then still try to keep hold of the kayak at all times as well. Ways to increase the security of the paddle kayak connection: 1) push the blade under the lines beyond the deck and turn it 90 degrees to key it so it can't pull out, 2) employ a system that fastens the paddle firmly to the deck (several ways are possible--we have small hooks on the spare paddle holding shock cord that can be lifted over the paddle and hooked to itself making a small loop around the shaft), 3) lift the shock cord or line up and put it outside of the drip ring of the paddle so the drip ring stops it from easily being pulling back out until you again lift the cord to the other side of the drip ring when you are ready to disengage, 4) hook the paddle leash to a rear deck line so even if the paddle is pulled out it will still be leashed, 5) hook the shock cord leash on your paddlefloat to the boat before blowing up the float or fitting it to the paddle (it should be long enough to stretch so the paddle can still be fastened to the back deck or slipped under the deck lines once the float is on the paddle (note: some systems don't work well if you put the float on first--experiment in waves with your paddle fastening system) PeterO finished up with: >>>>>Several skilled sea kayakers advised that if one exits a boat due to a blown roll not to repeat it but use the paddlefloat assisted reentry and roll instead. And I found this much simpler and faster than learning the conventional paddlefloat rescue. I wonder if it might be easier even for people who don't know how to roll. Please note my opinions are those of a novice kayaker - so I'm really asking for comment not intending to give advice!<<<<<<<< Rick asked about how to pump out through the spraydeck. One of the main problems of the reentry and roll is that not only do you need to know how to roll but you are not stabilized once in the kayak and back upright (so that you can put the spraydeck back on and pump out as you can under most conditions as you can with the fixed outrigger paddlefloat rescue). Of course, if your kayak is equipped with an electric pump you only have to get the spraydeck reattached (usually a two handed job) and then brace a lot waiting for the electric pump to finish its job (unless you have also packed the inside of the cockpit sides all with foam so the water can't slosh so far over to the side to help your kayaks flooded stability). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<Snip> Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:23:36 -0400 From: John Fereira <jaf30_at_cornell.edu> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Bad advice on paddle float rescue The "trick" is to slide the pump in the tunnel of the skirt between your body and the skirt. <Snip> No... the trick is to do that with a PFD on and your skirt tunnel under that and perhaps a paddle jacket. I can find no way to do that. I think this is what the original poster may be getting at :-) Ken Schroeter OTC Millennium 160 Laconia, NH, USA 43°32'25"N 71°28'59"W "Watery tarts, lying around in ponds, handing out swords, is no basis for a system of government!" -Monty Python *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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