At 5:43 PM -0700 8/31/01, Dave Kruger wrote: >Shawn Baker wrote: >> >> [snip] A motorboating buddy of mine said he frequently slows down >> for kayakers, and one time was even flipped off for doing so! [snip] >> I told him he should simply >> maintain course and just not pass too closely to kayakers. >> >> He asked if that would put up too much wake in the case of an >> inexperienced kayaker. I told him if he gave them a respectably wide >> berth and they still couldn't handle the boat wake that they didn't >> belong out on the water in the first place. > >I surely agree with that last sentence, Shawn. Most boat wakes are >entertainment, not a cause for concern. > >For most small powered craft, maintaining speed, if the craft is on >plane, _minimizes_ wake. It is when those boaters slow down to mid-speed, and >drop off plane, that their wakes are largest. Most power boats are very inefficient at kayak speed and produce a big wake trying to pass, and then the second their bow gets in front of the kayak they accelerate back up to speed thus creating the most wake exactly where it will hit the kayakers the worst. They don't realize that they need to get well past the kayak if they truly want to be courteous. I actually shouldn't complain, I have a compulsion of chasing down any big cruiser to try to get a little surf ride. If they accelerate just as I get there, the ride is even better. The best spot is right at the outlet to a harbor or river where they all accelerate out into the open water. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Sun Sep 2 10:01:24 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA01726 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01692 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26959 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f82H0bp09005 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:00:38 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19839 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:01:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21437 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 04:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.islandnet.com (mail.islandnet.com [199.175.106.4]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11410 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 04:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 139-142-113-182.dialup.islandnet.com ([139.142.113.182] helo=islandnet.com) by mail.islandnet.com with ESMTP id 15dVTO-0000rL-00 ; Sun, 02 Sep 2001 04:31:31 -0700 Message-ID: <3B9217CC.8C715FEC_at_islandnet.com> Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 04:28:12 -0700 From: Doug Lloyd <dougl_at_islandnet.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net, Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] The American psyche: Paul Theroux's view Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Dave said responding to Jackie: Old buddy George, a sometime Paddlewiser, once described to me his most satisfying jet ski encounter: paddling down the Willamette in Portland, OR, he got power-zoomed by a couple guys, and later happened upon them lounging at bankside. After a nonproductive verbal exchange, George paddled on, and radioed the county sheriff patrol, who was put-putting by, with a description of the event and the jet skiers. <end snip> I'm mostly off-line these days as my terminal is covered in drywall dust, but I did want to let you know Dave (and the list) that though I didn't get away kayaking this summer, I did take the family canoeing for a week ( one wife, two small children). One of our stop-overs was the Sandy Islands (aka Tree Top Islands) off the tip of Denman Island, Strait of Georgia (very near to where the kayaker died that I wrote about in the last issue of sea Kayaker Magazine). Four young males (18 to 20ish) arrived by powerboat as we pulled up in our very loaded freighter canoe (sans Coleman, large propane cylinder, etc). They set to drinking almost immediately in the hot sun and carried on into the night. I kept the cell phone, VHF, bear spray, and 12-guage flare gun ready by the door - no lie. About 4:00 am, two of the males openly wondered around the tenting areas kicking sand while "looking for women" as they put it. Someone in another tent called the RCMP, who came over in a Zodiac from Comox, and there was a loud exchange and much conversation for some time. I rather think it was some young ladies who joined the males drinking party at sunset, but had said farewell a little too early for the liking of the males - if you know what I mean. We left early in the morning, wishing severely that we had done a true wilderness excursion instead (bears and wolves are much more civilized). Why does boating have to so all-to-commonly be associated with drinking and immature behaviour? The Canadian beer psyche: A family's view. Bye for a while, Doug Lloyd -- who was supposed to be on the west side of Calvert Island this week (with its 5 to 6 meter storm-swell today), but had to spray-paint pocket-doors all week). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Sun Sep 2 10:01:37 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA02754 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02717 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:01:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28138 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:01:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f82H1Vp09016 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:01:31 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA19846 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 10:02:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27140 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 09:47:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Riversweeper_at_aol.com Received: from imo-m04.mx.aol.com (imo-m04.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.7]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA18816 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 09:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Riversweeper_at_aol.com by imo-m04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id e.134.102c2e1 (3700) for <HudsonSweeper_at_aol.com>; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:46:25 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <134.102c2e1.28c3bc60_at_aol.com> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2001 12:46:24 EDT Subject: [Paddlewise] Moolight and fireworks over the Hudson To: HudsonSweeper_at_aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net My first thoughts were of awe. And then there was the sound made by my sudden intake of a breath! Indeed, there was magic in the air. Not a cloud in the sky...a bright moon rising...a group of people who had never all paddled together...water temps in the 70's...it was about 8PM (slack-before-flood time)...one perfect evening for a paddle! Last night, 11 kayakers in 10 boats were amazed by the beauty of a full moon rising over Foundry Cove in Cold Spring. As we began our paddle southward, the almost full (97%) moon cast a long reflection in the flat water east of us. There were 2 sit-on-tops (Julie & Billy), a double Feathercraft (Chris & Andrea) and the rest were single kayaks. Julie had a large light under her bow which illuminated her orange kayak like a great pumpkin! Don had surgically mounted a white light onto his rudder assembly (the store was out of the suction cup variety). Moe and Ro had not only white stern lights but red/green ones on their bows. Everyone else had white lights suction-cup-mounted on their sterns. With a breeze at out backs, we stayed pretty close to Constitution Island. As we got closer to West Point we noticed crowds of people gathered at the amphitheater. We could faintly hear some of the music. Julie said that there were supposed to be fireworks later. Wow! That would be an added bonus to a great evening! Our trip took us past blinking (red) buoy #32 at the end of World's End. From there we passed and said hello to the captain and crew of a sailboat. Soon we were at Garrison. With the hope of seeing some fireworks, we headed back north. The breezes had died down a lot and the flood tide was helping us. Billy was too hot under his wet suit. He cooled down by promptly sliding off and back onto his sit-on-top! As we neared World's End we saw a couple flares go up and some loud concussions...sights and sounds at the end of the 1812 Overture. Within a few minutes the real show began. We were amazed! Seemingly hundreds of exploding fireworks.....beautiful assortments of reds and blues and white sparkling streamers and cloudburst arrangements cascading over Trophy Point...reflecting in the water...illuminating kayakers as we sat, watched and listened as loud echoes returned from up and down the valley! We cheered the spectacular ending! Too soon we were back at Foundry Dock Park...packing up...saying good-bye to new and old friends. A great evening! Now let's see what the West Point firework schedule for 2002 will be....hummmmmmmm... Walt Thompson *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Sun Sep 2 14:01:58 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA16606 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:00:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA16561 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:00:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from femail48.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail48.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.42]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA19906 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c1169894-a.home.com ([24.248.18.138]) by femail48.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010902210045.HYSW26637.femail48.sdc1.sfba.home.com_at_c1169894-a.home. com> for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 14:00:45 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20010902140030.0208aec0_at_mail> X-Sender: gadfly911_at_mail X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2001 14:00:40 -0700 To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net From: Tommy <gadfly911_at_home.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] Sea Kayak for sale, down but not OUT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Hi, To me the word "kayaking" has a relatively broad meaning. There are many kayaks, good for many different types of waters. I live within 1/8 mile of Puget Sound, and possibly 1/4-1/3 mile from Blake<?> island. Very protected section of the Sound. My Northwest Kayaks Pursuit is a wonderful boat-22 1/2 inch beam, 17 1/2 feet long, a wonderful boat! Modifications I made with foam and such, as well as adding extra knee bracing, make it all the better! However, it has been over 3 years post brain injury and it has been time to do a "personal inventory" of sorts. I was allowed to carve wood immediately after leaving hospital. I managed to get kayak to the water about 6 months later. I could start turning [simple] things about 9-11 months, I moved out on my own, and any resources I had, got "ate up" with learning how to live independently. I have made 2 moves since then, and each time the same results. Pursuit has been in water only 3 times in over 3 years... I am however Carving and Turning wood when I can, slowly, more and more. "But how can one enjoy the beauty of the Pacific North West if not in a sea kayak," one might ask? There are two or three ways for me actually. If my desire is to get out on the Sound, I have an Old Town Loon, a NOAA weather radio, a Marine VHF, PFD, flares, etc... and the section of the Sound beside me is VERY protected. The tide chart comes up on my computer every day, and at max, current flow is no higher than about 2 1/2knots. There are a couple of local lakes for my little Caspia. St. Vincent DePaul's sold me a decent Kelty pack for all of about $10. I have had to accept the fact that a walking stick or cane, helps me have more stamina through out the day. I still have my little w/w boat, and still have hopes of eventually being able to roll a kayak, maybe not in the next couple of years, a bit longer? But I haven't given up. My old belief in "effective use of [limited] resources" says that for now, perhaps I should devote what monies I can get from my SEA-kayak, my dry suit, perhaps a paddle or two, etc... to wood carving, and turning for now. I don't "multi-task" worth a hill of beans, and trouble in my Pursuit would necessitate that. I have sometimes described myself as a "7 year old going on 70..." but we have members on this list who do far better than I could, at a more advanced age. Fact is that my stamina is small-so at this point in my life, even "over nights" via kayak, are out of my league... The Grand River, or Portage Lake, Wolf Lake, in Michigan, are more within my capacities now. But kayaking is still on my values list! FWIW, I am selling the following: Northwest Kayaks Pursuit-$950 O.B.O. Dry Suit-$175 O.B.O. Wooden Paddle-$70 O.B.O. Misc. Other Kayaking stuff, Best Offer. 1973 Tioga Class "C" RV, good for transportation of kayaks to grand destinations-$650 O.B.O. (I got my mobile home for a great deal, best I pass the RV on to someone else for the same, seems only fare to me) (360 373-7422 (East) Bremerton, WA [beside Illahee State Park] My next boat? Probably one from a kit made in Port Townsend. When I get to where I can construct one properly, I figure that I will probably also have enough smarts to consider taking another try at "more active" kayaking. I am sadly, not there yet... I am not "quitting," just facing some not so nice facts. I am not ready YET to put my Pursuit to the use which it is very well designed for, and it has been over 3 years now. Perhaps a member on this list knows someone whom it would benefit more for now? Do I still consider myself a "Paddlewiser?" Yup! Got a shirt that says so! <g> [thank you very much!] Am I giving up kayaking completely? Nope! But even "silly-broken-headed-dreamers" like me have to get practical sometime...<g> Hope this wasn't too long, it has been over a month in the writing... Take good care everyone... Tom Weese Bremerton, WA Three Left Turns Sometimes Make a Right... Survivors of Traumatic Brain Injury [SoTBI] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoTBI Personal homepage: http://www.geocities.com/totemwood2001/index.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Sun Sep 2 20:21:45 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA15494 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA15463 Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from regyva.regy.canterbury.ac.nz (regyva.canterbury.ac.nz [132.181.30.7]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06380 for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Sun, 2 Sep 2001 20:21:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from CONVERSION-DAEMON.it.canterbury.ac.nz by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.0-025 #45723) id <01K7WL3YOEMO90NXWC_at_it.canterbury.ac.nz> for PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net; Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:21:00 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from mail.chem.canterbury.ac.nz ([132.181.173.162]) by it.canterbury.ac.nz (PMDF V6.0-025 #45723) with ESMTP id <01K7WL3ZNIV08Y60OL_at_it.canterbury.ac.nz> for PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net; Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:21:01 +1200 (NEW ZEALAND STANDARD TIME) Received: from sandy.chem.canterbury.ac.nz (sandy [132.181.173.22]) by mail.chem.canterbury.ac.nz (8.9.3/8.8.7) with ESMTP id PAA05196 for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:21:01 +1200 Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 15:20:59 +1200 From: Alex Ferguson <a.ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Pearl" Purl In-reply-to: <FB96ADD85ECD2D48A51AB103F4F19AD6F0A875_at_fei0018m002.hq.ferg .com> X-Sender: ferguson_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net Message-id: <4.3.2.7.1.20010903151540.00c65e10_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net At 01:27 pm 31/08/01 -0400, you wrote: >Matt Broze - or anyone - on pg. 89 of Matt's "Deep Trouble", near the >bottom, there is a sentence which begins; > >"I pearled on one of the beastly waves....." > >What does "pearl" mean? purler = headlong fall purl = upset purl = a loop as in knitting or lacework pearl = picot = purl = loop Correctly, from the first definition, it should be purl. Concise Oxford Dictionary (or interpretation of such) Alex . . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Mon Sep 3 07:08:50 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id HAA04212 Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04207 Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:06:35 -0700 (PDT) From: ECOEXPLOR_at_aol.com Received: from imo-r09.mx.aol.com (imo-r09.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.105]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01229 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ECOEXPLOR_at_aol.com by imo-r09.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id e.d1.c06fea8 (9725) for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:06:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <d1.c06fea8.28c4e865_at_aol.com> Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:06:29 EDT Subject: [Paddlewise] carpool to WCSKS from SeaTac Sept 13 or 14 To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: AOL 6.0 for Windows US sub 10539 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.92b X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Hi Paddlefolk, Is anyone heading out to Pt. Townsend from SeaTac or Seattle Thursday evening or Friday am (Sept. 13/14)? I will share expenses. Thank you kindly, Lori ecoexplor_at_aol.com 831/465-1911 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Mon Sep 3 09:19:56 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA13442 Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:17:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13437 Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19956 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f83GHtp10885 Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:17:55 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20245 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA15966 Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.superaje.com (mail.superaje.com [209.87.254.196]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA24830 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:43:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6450128 (dp10-209-87-249-98.ottawa.storm.ca [209.87.249.98]) by mail.superaje.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1356716F7A8 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:43:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen Bird <StephenBird_at_superaje.com> To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: [Paddlewise] SK Rental - Cape Cod? Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 10:43:14 -0400 Message-ID: <il57ptgdjk0hpiurlgok049nh70oakc0ec_at_4ax.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Greetings, I'm looking for a sea kayak equipment and rental place on Cape Cod, preferably close to Kingston MA. Any suggestions? Many thanks... -- cheers, Stephen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Mon Sep 3 09:20:09 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA13451 Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA13446 Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA19983 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f83GIOp10896 Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:18:24 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id JAA20252 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 09:19:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA19524 Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:58:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.superaje.com (mail.superaje.com [209.87.254.196]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA01792 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 07:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from k6450128 (dp10-209-87-249-98.ottawa.storm.ca [209.87.249.98]) by mail.superaje.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8B01416F6D7; Mon, 3 Sep 2001 10:58:29 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen Bird <StephenBird_at_superaje.com> To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Cc: Dave Flory <daflory_at_pacbell.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Kayak trailers Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2001 10:58:35 -0400 Message-ID: <d867pto487n7hr98pgv4206cuf1rlhrncl_at_4ax.com> References: <001e01c129d0$14c55e60$2bd0150c_at_carter> <20010821040543.20455_at_mail.pacbell.net> In-Reply-To: <20010821040543.20455_at_mail.pacbell.net> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.8/32.548 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net On Mon, 20 Aug 2001 21:05:43 -0700, Dave wrote: >If any paddlewiser is interested in third party info' on the >Sportsrig.com trailer zip me a query. I drove down to their shop in San >Luis Obispo today and picked one up with my Honda del Sol. .... Here is another kayak trailer, with some new options/possibilities that I haven't seen before... http://www.eze-float.com/ Although it may seem somewhat expensive, the builder uses more expensive motorcycle trailer axles for a softer ride that, he figures, will cause less grief to one's kayak. btw, Dave, what is the price of the Sportsrig? -- cheers, Stephen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Tue Sep 4 10:59:52 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA29657 Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:58:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29652 Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from femail25.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail25.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.15]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA03326 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c1169894-a.home.com ([24.248.18.138]) by femail25.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010904175807.JPBB18152.femail25.sdc1.sfba.home.com_at_c1169894-a.home. com> for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 10:58:07 -0700 Message-Id: <5.1.0.14.0.20010904103504.01fdf950_at_mail> X-Sender: gadfly911_at_mail X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2001 10:43:09 -0700 To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net From: Tommy <gadfly911_at_home.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] Dry Suit Repairs In-Reply-To: <d867pto487n7hr98pgv4206cuf1rlhrncl_at_4ax.com> References: <20010821040543.20455_at_mail.pacbell.net> <001e01c129d0$14c55e60$2bd0150c_at_carter> <20010821040543.20455_at_mail.pacbell.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net While inventorying my kayak gear, I checked out my Kokotat dry suit. Apparently mice got to it at two [approx. 1" dia] spots in the right leg. Joan mentioned that I may be able to get it repaired. Has anyone had a repair done? Idea of the cost? etc...? My Dry-Top still fits, [and is intact] and though my farmer john has been converted into mouse pads as I was 50lbs lighter when I purchased it, <g>I wonder if I'd be better off considering dry-pants [I think that is what I have seen them called] or a new farmer John? Tommy Bremerton, WA Three Left Turns Sometimes Make a Right... Survivors of Traumatic Brain Injury [SoTBI] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SoTBI Personal homepage: http://www.geocities.com/totemwood2001/index.html *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Tue Sep 4 18:29:48 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA18782 Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA18777 Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp2.fdn.com (smtp2.fdn.com [216.199.0.143]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25091 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Stephens (tnt1-216-199-5-67.jax.fdn.com [216.199.5.67]) by smtp2.fdn.com (Pro-8.9.3/Pro-8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA28290 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 21:27:54 -0400 (EDT) From: "Scott Stephens" <hssteph_at_leading.net> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] "Pearl" Purl Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 21:29:42 -0700 Message-ID: <NFBBKIHCKLOLKPKJPFAECEEBCAAA.hssteph_at_leading.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.1.20010903151540.00c65e10_at_chem.canterbury.ac.nz> Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Gotta go with "Pearl Diving", citing patrician surfer and eminent U. of Hawaii oceanographer Ricky Grigg, from his early 60's classic 'Surfing in Hawaii' glossary. Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] "Pearl" Purl >What does "pearl" mean? purler = headlong fall purl = upset purl = a loop as in knitting or lacework pearl = picot = purl = loop Correctly, from the first definition, it should be purl. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Tue Sep 4 18:42:08 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA24289 Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:41:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA24284 Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:41:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.106]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA04071 for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:41:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from meatball ([24.112.191.196]) by femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010905014140.RGSI557.femail10.sdc1.sfba.home.com_at_meatball> for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Tue, 4 Sep 2001 18:41:40 -0700 Message-ID: <023901c135ac$a45e6020$c4bf7018_at_meatball> From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_home.com> To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> References: <17.1aa72a4b.28be2632_at_aol.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Skeg placement Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2001 21:46:54 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net From: <SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com> > Any skeg is most effective, with respect to weathercocking, the further > astern it's located, providing it stays submerged the majority of the time. Since weathercocking is caused by sideslip, reducing sideslip is better than trying to straighten out your tracking. A large skeg near the CG would be more effective. > Loss of maneuverability, while not the point of a skeg, is a byproduct of the > skeg's proper function. A smaller skeg, further back will create less drag > than a larger skeg closer to midship This may be true. Someone more experienced than me would have to work out the relative effects of drag on a larger skeg vs drag due to constantly correcting the tracking. > and may well counter weathercocking > better as well due to the increased distance from the boats rotational center. A skeg near the CG will have minimal effects on maneuverability. The only significant problem is making a deployable/retractable skeg in the cockpit. Perhaps a pair of leeboards could work. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 00:04:12 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA01284 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:03:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA01279 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:03:47 -0700 (PDT) From: SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com Received: from imo-r08.mx.aol.com (imo-r08.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.104]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA23032 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 00:03:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com by imo-r08.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id e.ff.ba2378c (4254) for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 03:03:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <ff.ba2378c.28c7284f_at_aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 03:03:43 EDT Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Skeg placement To: PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Mac sub 29 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Jed wrote: > Any skeg is most effective, with respect to weathercocking, the further > astern it's located, providing it stays submerged the majority of the time. Michael wrote: Since weathercocking is caused by sideslip, reducing sideslip is better than trying to straighten out your tracking. A large skeg near the CG would be more effective. Jed writes: Others, more articulate than I, can explain weathercocking better. My limited understanding of weather cocking is than it is indeed caused by side-slip but this side-slip does not effect both ends of the boat equally. The trailing end of the boat is pushed downwind. The leading end of the boat is less effected by the wind because the bow wave that forms at the leading end of the boat tends to resist any sideslip at that end. The net effect is that the boat seems to be pushed bow to the wind. This bow wave also forms as the boat is paddled backwards but this time at the stern. In this example the bow would be pushed downwind. The purpose of a skeg in this application is to increase the resistance to sideslip of the trailing end by matching the effect of the bow wave relative to the leading end. Jed wrote: > Loss of maneuverability, while not the point of a skeg, is a byproduct of the > skeg's proper function. A smaller skeg, further back will create less drag > than a larger skeg closer to midship > and may well counter weathercocking > better as well due to the increased distance from the boats rotational center. Michael wrote: A skeg near the CG will have minimal effects on maneuverability. The only significant problem is making a deployable/retractable skeg in the cockpit. Perhaps a pair of leeboards could work. Jed writes: Increased tracking is not the primary purpose of a retractable skeg. Or rather should not be the primary purpose of a retractable skeg. Fixed skegs are intended to increase tracking in boats where the issue could not be addressed by hull design for some reason. Retractable skegs (in British designed kayaks) are designed to correct for the effects of wind on tracking, to correct for weathercocking and possibly allow for leecocking. Since the issue is sideslip of the stern relative to the bow, skeg placement closest to the point of concern would be most effective. If kayak designers thought that skeg placement near the center of rotation would have solved some problem they would have developed a solution to address the issue. Leeboards are great if the problem is sideslip applied equally to both ends of the boat as in a sailing situation. But these are kayaks we are talking about, not sailboats. The two have different needs with respect to control of sideslip. Jed Not a naval architect nor a kayak designer. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 05:29:43 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA08949 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 05:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA08944 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 05:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onlink6.onlink.net (onlink6.onlink.net [206.108.253.65]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA09127 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 05:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jwinters (nrba2-60.onlink.net [209.105.209.4]) by onlink6.onlink.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f85CTGJ145370 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:29:16 -0400 Message-ID: <000c01c13606$81ed49c0$d299fea9_at_jwinters> From: "John Winters" <jwinters_at_onlink.net> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] Rudders and broaching Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:29:23 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.92b X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Some of you will recall the discussion on broaching and rudders and the theory that rudders contributed to the capsizing of boats during a broach. You may recall several comments on the significance and magnitude of this effect. I asked if anyone had a test that I could apply during my vacation to help in the understanding of this but unfortunately no one provided one. That left me to my own devices. I came up with two types of test. In the first I dragged a boat sideways with the rudder down and with the rudder up. I fastened the tow rope at the estimated center of gravity and had the person in the boat observe an inclinometer. Unfortunately the results were mixed and inconsistent. I believe the occupant (which included me in some test) of the boat unconsciously tried to compensate for the heel and the inclinometer was not all that accurate being of a small size and difficult to read. In the second tests I paddled the boat in both breaking and non-breaking waves while allowing the boat to broach naturally rather than trying to force a broach. I tried this test with the ruder down and up, I could not duplicate the effects that Kevin and Matt mentioned. The obvious question is, "Did these tests refute Kevin's and Matt's theories?" To me the answer is "NO" Did they confirm Kevin's and Matt's theories? Once again the answer to me is "NO" The first test, if carried out with a rigid object instead of a paddler and a more accurate inclinometer might have shown the magnitude of the heeling moment but it would not have shown the dynamic action of the boat in a wave where the water flow within the wave was not at right angles to the blade. The second set of tests relied on human observations that clearly will vary. I had no way to assure that the waves were the same in every test nor could I be assured that I had the same rate of broach or location the wave. Worst of all, I could not be assured that I had purged myself of all preconceptions and prejudices. I have owned dozens of canoes and kayaks and not one has ever had a rudder. Those who followed WaveLength (the predecessor to Paddlewise) will recall that I often argued in favour of boats without rudders so one could say I may have already had my mind made up to detect another reason not to use rudders. I was curious what kind of heeling moment I could calculate so using Thomas Gilmer's formula for heeling moment (also used by the U.S. Navy) and assuming a sideways velocity of 8.45 ft per second (5 knots), no heel relative to the water, a path normal to the water flow, an immersed area of 40 square inches, a centroid equal to half the draft and a displacement of 250 pounds I came up with a heeling moment of .007 lbs. Perhaps that explains why I could not detect it. My feeling on this at this particular point is to agree with Nick Schade's opinion that the heeling moment might exist but if it does it doesn't amount to much and is probably offset by the rudder's contribution to preventing a broach. If I apply the information from research papers on broaching I could conclude that instead of a heeling force the rudder would actually create a righting moment so long as the stern remains in the breaking portion of the wave but probably not much of one. You readers can draw your own conclusions as to the validity of paddler theories formed from paddling experience as well as their competence as measuring devices. Cheers, John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 08:05:02 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA27272 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA27265 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from www.doutlets.com (asd123_at_cj387146-a.alex1.va.home.com [24.252.2.201]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA16966 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from gothmog (asd123_at_localhost [127.0.0.1]) by www.doutlets.com (8.11.6/8.11.3) with SMTP id f85F4C215325; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 11:04:13 -0400 Message-ID: <000901c1361c$48537de0$0cf6fea9_at_gothmog> From: "Kevin Whilden" <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> To: "John Winters" <jwinters_at_onlink.net>, <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> References: <000c01c13606$81ed49c0$d299fea9_at_jwinters> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudders and broaching Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:06:02 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net John, Thanks for the insightful commentary and attempts to test the theory. I am not surprised at your results, since it was my final stated opinion that the paddler's ability to control their edges would dominate over the capsizing moment of a rudder or skeg. I also thought that the total resistance of the boat's edges would amount to more capsizing moment than the rudder/skeg.... if one's edge control was lacking. Your sideways pulling test may work a little better with a total novice with no concept of edge control in the cockpit. Attach the rope to the vertical balance point where pulling on the boat causes no capsize moment when the rudder/skeg is up. Then deploy the rudder/skeg, and see how fast the novice gets dunked. Repeat 100 times for statistical accuracy. Any volunteers? FWIW, some whitewater kayaks have fins these days, and those fins apparently cause very little resistance to flat spins on river waves. Cheers, Kevin ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Winters" <jwinters_at_onlink.net> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: Wednesday, September 05, 2001 5:29 AM Subject: [Paddlewise] Rudders and broaching > Some of you will recall the discussion on broaching and rudders and the theory > that rudders contributed to the capsizing of boats during a broach. You may > recall several comments on the significance and magnitude of this effect. I > asked if anyone had a test that I could apply during my vacation to help in > the understanding of this but unfortunately no one provided one. > > > > > > That left me to my own devices. I came up with two types of test. In the first > I dragged a boat sideways with the rudder down and with the rudder up. I > fastened the tow rope at the estimated center of gravity and had the person in > the boat observe an inclinometer. Unfortunately the results were mixed and > inconsistent. I believe the occupant (which included me in some test) of the > boat unconsciously tried to compensate for the heel and the inclinometer was > not all that accurate being of a small size and difficult to read. > > > > > > In the second tests I paddled the boat in both breaking and non-breaking waves > while allowing the boat to broach naturally rather than trying to force a > broach. I tried this test with the ruder down and up, I could not duplicate > the effects that Kevin and Matt mentioned. > > > > > > The obvious question is, "Did these tests refute Kevin's and Matt's theories?" > > > > > To me the answer is "NO" > > > > > > Did they confirm Kevin's and Matt's theories? > > > > > > Once again the answer to me is "NO" > > > > > > The first test, if carried out with a rigid object instead of a paddler and a > more accurate inclinometer might have shown the magnitude of the heeling > moment but it would not have shown the dynamic action of the boat in a wave > where the water flow within the wave was not at right angles to the blade. > > > > > > The second set of tests relied on human observations that clearly will vary. I > had no way to assure that the waves were the same in every test nor could I be > assured that I had the same rate of broach or location the wave. Worst of > all, I could not be assured that I had purged myself of all preconceptions and > prejudices. > > > > > > I have owned dozens of canoes and kayaks and not one has ever had a rudder. > Those who followed WaveLength (the predecessor to Paddlewise) will recall that > I often argued in favour of boats without rudders so one could say I may have > already had my mind made up to detect another reason not to use rudders. > > > > > > I was curious what kind of heeling moment I could calculate so using Thomas > Gilmer's formula for heeling moment (also used by the U.S. Navy) and assuming > a sideways velocity of 8.45 ft per second (5 knots), no heel relative to the > water, a path normal to the water flow, an immersed area of 40 square inches, > a centroid equal to half the draft and a displacement of 250 pounds I came up > with a heeling moment of .007 lbs. Perhaps that explains why I could not > detect it. > > > > > > My feeling on this at this particular point is to agree with Nick Schade's > opinion that the heeling moment might exist but if it does it doesn't amount > to much and is probably offset by the rudder's contribution to preventing a > broach. If I apply the information from research papers on broaching I could > conclude that instead of a heeling force the rudder would actually create a > righting moment so long as the stern remains in the breaking portion of the > wave but probably not much of one. > > > > > > You readers can draw your own conclusions as to the validity of paddler > theories formed from paddling experience as well as their competence as > measuring devices. > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > > John Winters > > > > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 08:32:52 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id IAA06432 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA06276 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:31:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comet.pacifier.com ([199.2.117.155]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA03586 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacifier.com (ip36.ast7.pacifier.com [66.43.11.36]) by comet.pacifier.com (8.11.2/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f85FUlC13841; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 08:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B964489.9DBF0D0A_at_pacifier.com> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 08:28:09 -0700 From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudders and broaching References: <000c01c13606$81ed49c0$d299fea9_at_jwinters> <000901c1361c$48537de0$0cf6fea9_at_gothmog> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Kevin Whilden wrote: > > John, > Thanks for the insightful commentary and attempts to test the theory. I am > not surprised at your results, since it was my final stated opinion that the > paddler's ability to control their edges would dominate over the capsizing > moment of a rudder or skeg. I also thought that the total resistance of the > boat's edges would amount to more capsizing moment than the rudder/skeg.... > if one's edge control was lacking. > > Your sideways pulling test may work a little better with a total novice with > no concept of edge control in the cockpit. Attach the rope to the vertical > balance point where pulling on the boat causes no capsize moment when the > rudder/skeg is up. Then deploy the rudder/skeg, and see how fast the novice > gets dunked. Repeat 100 times for statistical accuracy. Any volunteers? > > FWIW, some whitewater kayaks have fins these days, and those fins apparently > cause very little resistance to flat spins on river waves. Good dialog. Agree a novice will be a better subject. Oh, yeah, has to be a really slow-learning novice, also ... 100 tries! Comment on the "pull on the vertical balance point" method of testing whether the skeg/rudder inhibits capsize: Unless you run the line through the hull and attach to the centerline of the hull, you will not get the full effect, because the line's pull inhibits rotation of the hull around the centerline. In otherwords, as the yak begins to capsize and rotate toward the puller, the line (if attached to the outside of the hull) will exert a component of pull in the upward direction, inhibiting capsize towards the line. Means somebody has to agree to cut a slice in their yak, also! -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 09:59:45 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA01888 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:59:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01882 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web10601.mail.yahoo.com (web10601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.165]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA00051 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:59:21 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20010905165921.13403.qmail_at_web10601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.206.184.21] by web10601.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:59:21 PDT Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:59:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Shawn Baker <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Motorboats slowing...Labor Day weekend To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net, Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Shawn Baker wrote: > I told him he should simply > maintain course and just not pass too closely to kayakers. Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: >For most small powered craft, maintaining speed, if the craft is on >plane, _minimizes_ wake. It is when those boaters slow down to >mid-speed, and drop off plane, that their wakes are largest. That's what I meant to say, but didn't elucidate as well. So..if kayakers can't handle the minimized wake of a motorboat, on plane, and giving them a respectable berth, then they don't belong out there. My brother and I were in the Gates of the Mountains of the upper Missouri River this past weekend. The busiest weekend of the year for motorboats in one of the most popular and congested boating areas in the state. Aluminum fishing boats, 18' runabouts, 21' ski boats, 29' cabin cruiser yachts (that's about as big as a "yacht" gets in montana), 50' tour boats, and a couple of guys in wooden kayaks; all this in a canyon 100 yards across and 6.5 miles long. Wow! We stayed somewhat near the shore--I would have preferred to be closer to the wave action, but I didn't because a) some of them were surely drinking too much, and b) they couldn't know I was an experienced kayaker wanting to play in their wakes and they would think me an inexperienced jerk otherwise. So, I played it safe and polite and stayed toward shore. We got waves and smiles from 98% of the folks out there. The jerks we noticed were jerks to everyone, and just oblivious to us. Most everyone was courteous to us, and to everyone else. It's a highly popular motor boating area, and we were regarded as a pleasant curiousity. It seems as if this area were west of the Continental Divide, there would have been many more kayaks and canoes present, but more folks on the east side are "motor heads". Not good, not bad, just different. There really is a big difference between Eastern Montanan and Western Montanan attitudes toward recreation. We paddled up the "gauntlet" during the peak of the traffic Sunday afternoon, and back to our camp, midway up the canyon. We were hauled out on a cliff about 25' above the water, with an amazing panoramic view, when a woman we'd waved to earlier stopped below "our" cliff to make sure we were alright. She hadn't noticed our kayaks on the way out and was worried. We assured her that we'd scrambled them up the embankment 50' to the north, and were camping there and A-OK, and thanked her for her concern. Motorboaters aren't bad, just different, and we can all be "ambassadors" for kayakers to explain to them how to act around kayakers. We told (when asked by) 3 or 4 boats that they simply could stay on plane, and we'd have no trouble with their wakes. Shawn Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 10:07:18 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA04842 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:07:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA04837 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web10603.mail.yahoo.com (web10603.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.130.167]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA06192 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:07:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20010905170710.94501.qmail_at_web10603.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [209.206.184.21] by web10603.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 05 Sep 2001 10:07:10 PDT Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:07:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Shawn Baker <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dry Suit Repairs To: Tommy <gadfly911_at_home.com>, paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Try calling Kokatat and see if they would send you some scrap fabric. Cut a circle 2" or 2 1/2" in diameter, and dab some Aquaseal around the outside 1/2". Press it against the hole. You could cover both sides with a piece of waxed paper and then weight down the repair with a book if you really wanted to make sure everything made contact. If you could get the fabric free...the Aquaseal is only $6. Shawn Tommy <gadfly911_at_home.com> wrote: >I checked out my Kokotat dry suit. Apparently mice got to it at two [approx. 1" dia] spots in the right leg. Joan mentioned that I may be able to get it repaired. >Has anyone had a repair done? Idea of the cost? etc...? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 10:50:00 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA17118 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17113 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA02744 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f85HnAp14923 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:49:10 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21195 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA29470 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:32:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.Ferguson.com (mailgate.ferguson.com [205.139.23.72]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19853 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 06:32:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mailgate.Ferguson.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id 0461F9B8D; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:33:12 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsgw.ferguson.com(205.139.23.85) via SMTP by mailgate.ferguson.com, id smtpdx16027; Wed Sep 5 09:33:08 2001 Received: from fei0018m002.hq.ferg.com ([172.16.105.14]) by vsgw.ferguson.com (NAVGW 2.5.1.12) with SMTP id M2001090509313902806 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 05 Sep 2001 09:31:39 -0400 Received: by fei0018m002.hq.ferg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <SKFSQWBH>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:31:40 -0400 Message-ID: <FB96ADD85ECD2D48A51AB103F4F19AD6F0A87C_at_fei0018m002.hq.ferg. com> From: Rick Sylvia <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferginc.com> To: "Paddlewise (E-mail)" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] WIND SPEED Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 09:31:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Hey, folks. I need some advice. I'm having a hard time estimating wind speeds (MPH, KNOTS, or BEAUFORT) for various uses in navigation. Therefore, too help me get a handle on it, I'm thinking about buying a small inexpensive anemometer. Cheapest I've found is roughly $50 (US). For the fun of it (and I'm cheap), I'm also considering making one, but the instructions I've found on the internet are all too fragile or bulky to carry on a kayak, and don't look very accurate, even after calibrating them. 1. Anybody use one and can comment on them (any and all aspects)? 2. Anybody got a used one they want to sell? 3. Anybody ever make one and can share the plans? Thanks. Rick - Poquoson, VA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 10:54:49 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA19829 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:54:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA19824 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:54:43 -0700 (PDT) From: JSpinner_at_aol.com Received: from imo-m02.mx.aol.com (imo-m02.mx.aol.com [64.12.136.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA08548 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 10:54:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from JSpinner_at_aol.com by imo-m02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id e.c.1a9bcfb7 (17079) for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:54:34 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <c.1a9bcfb7.28c7c0da_at_aol.com> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:54:34 EDT Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Dry Suit Repairs To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Mac - Post-GM sub 146 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net In a message dated 9/4/01 2:11:59 PM, gadfly911_at_home.com writes: << While inventorying my kayak gear, I checked out my Kokotat dry suit. Apparently mice got to it at two [approx. 1" dia] spots in the right leg. Joan mentioned that I may be able to get it repaired. >> Hi Tommy, I called Kokotat last year to get a piece of fabric to repair a spot that was badly rubbed by a screw head in a boat I was using. They were great. I told them which color and about how big. The actually sent a piece of each color. They sent them at NC and I was back in business in only a few days. Nice folks to deal with. I put a patch on only the outside because the area was only rubbed, not all the way through. I'd put a piece on both the inside and outside and have a WIDE area around the outside of the hole for the glue to stick to the good part of the suit if the re is an actual hole. Make VERY sure the edges of the patches are nice and smooth so they don't pull up easily. The need to REALLY stick down. Check them occasionally to make sure they aren't getting pulled up. Easy fix to an expensive piece of equipment. Good luck. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 12:11:10 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA11980 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11929 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:09:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from internet.ntrs.com (gate.ntrs.com [192.77.161.2]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA25184 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by gate.ntrs.com id AA29501 (InterLock SMTP Gateway 3.0 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net); Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:09:57 -0500 Received: by gate.ntrs.com (Internal Mail Agent-1); Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:09:57 -0500 X-Lotus-Fromdomain: NORTHERN TRUST From: "Evan Dallas" <Evan_Dallas_at_notes.ntrs.com> To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Message-Id: <86256ABE.00693C9C.00_at_chi-g01.ntrs.com> Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:09:42 -0700 Subject: [Paddlewise] Homemade J-cradles Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net A while back (maybe a year ago), someone provided a link to his personal web page discussing how he made some J-cradles from laminated wood veneer strips (I think). Could you (or anyone else who knows the link) either post that link again or send it to me back-channel. Thanks! Evan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 12:27:29 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA17842 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:26:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA17837 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA07607 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:26:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 15390 invoked by alias); 5 Sep 2001 19:25:58 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net_at_fixme Received: (qmail 15343 invoked by uid 0); 5 Sep 2001 19:25:57 -0000 Received: from dialupf187.ptld.uswest.net (HELO oemcomputer) (207.225.86.187) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 5 Sep 2001 19:25:57 -0000 Message-ID: <002001c13643$35f8efa0$bb56e1cf_at_oemcomputer> From: "Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe" <aldercreek_at_qwest.net> To: "Rick Sylvia" <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferginc.com>, "Paddlewise \(E-mail\)" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> References: <FB96ADD85ECD2D48A51AB103F4F19AD6F0A87C_at_fei0018m002.hq.ferg. com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] WIND SPEED Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 12:44:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net IMNSHO, just go buy one. Steve Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45º 39' 47" 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122º 36' 16" Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 13:56:13 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA15561 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15556 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:55:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.147]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06466 for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from meatball ([24.112.191.196]) by femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010905205547.SQGX11231.femail22.sdc1.sfba.home.com_at_meatball> for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 13:55:47 -0700 Message-ID: <006701c1364d$df854780$c4bf7018_at_meatball> From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_home.com> To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> References: <ff.ba2378c.28c7284f_at_aol.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Skeg placement Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:01:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net From: <SeaKayakNH_at_aol.com> >>> Any skeg is most effective, with respect to weathercocking, the further >>> astern it's located, providing it stays submerged the majority of the time. >> >> Since weathercocking is caused by sideslip, reducing sideslip is better >> than trying to straighten out your tracking. A large skeg near the CG would >> be more effective. > > Others, more articulate than I, can explain weathercocking better. My limited > understanding of weather cocking is than it is indeed caused by side-slip but > this side-slip does not effect both ends of the boat equally. The trailing > end of the boat is pushed downwind. The leading end of the boat is less > effected by the wind because the bow wave that forms at the leading end of > the boat tends to resist any sideslip at that end. The net effect is that the > boat seems to be pushed bow to the wind. Well, it's not so much that the sideslip induced forces are different on the bow and stern. What's happening is that there are two sets of forces acting, those caused by you paddling forwards (equal on either side of the bow) and those caused by sideslip (on the lee side of the kayak). When you add the two, the greatest force is on the leeward bow. This pushes the bow into the wind (and the downside is, the harder you paddle, the greater the weathercocking). If you look at the _effects_ of weathercocking, you want to adjust the tracking - hence the skeg is near the rear and you try to force the kayak in line with your paddling. But if you look at the _cause_, you realize that it's better to prevent sideslip, as I suggested in my previous post, copied above. To prevent sideslip, a skeg near the CG makes more sense. > Since the issue is sideslip of the stern relative to the bow, skeg placement > closest to the point of concern would be most effective. If kayak designers > thought that skeg placement near the center of rotation would have solved > some problem they would have developed a solution to address the issue. I think you're confusing the cause and effects. I can't claim that the idea of a skeg at the CG is mine. I heard it from John Winters at a local symposium. He said he tried it and it works, but the practical aspects of constructing a kayak with a retractable center (as opposed to stern) skeg make it impractical. Hence designers use other tactics in hull design to prevent sideslip. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 14:38:03 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA28055 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28050 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.2]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA03560 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:37:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 54064 invoked by alias); 5 Sep 2001 21:37:31 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net_at_fixme Received: (qmail 53977 invoked by uid 0); 5 Sep 2001 21:37:29 -0000 Received: from dialupn87.ptld.uswest.net (HELO oemcomputer) (216.161.83.87) by ptldpop2.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 5 Sep 2001 21:37:29 -0000 Message-ID: <00ce01c13655$95a7b280$bb56e1cf_at_oemcomputer> From: "Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe" <aldercreek_at_qwest.net> To: "Zpaddlewise list" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] San Juan Islands DNR closures Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:56:15 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Here is a copy <with permission> of text that appeared in the August Washington Water Trail Association newletter: The Department of Natural Resources announced, to San Juan County commissioners, plans to close multiple DNR facilities in the San Juans. Among the closures are three Cascadia Marine Trail campsites: Point Doughty and Obstruction Pass on Orcas Island and Griffin Bay on San Juan Island. This leaves these two popular San Juan Islands with no CMT sites. According to Stan Kurowski of DNR, "There is higher use of the sites and our maintenance budget has been decreasing over the last decade. A second maintenance person is needed but DNR doesn't have the money." Additionally, vault toilets on the sites are beginning to leak. Cost to replace a single toilet is estimated to be over $60,000. In September DNR crews will remove picnic tables, toilets, firepits and rings from the sites and post closure signs unless another agency takes over maintenance duties. DNR asked the San Juan County Commissioners about the County's interest in the properties. State Parks and National Parks have also been contacted. Closures of DNR's CMT sites alone removes 156 acres from public use. Cypress Island sites will not be affected by the closures. You can send comments directly to: Doug Sutherland Commissioner of Public Lands Department of Natural Resources PO Box 47001 Olympia, WA 98504-7001 Phone: 360.902.1004 Fax: 360.902.1775 Also on the web at: http://www.wa.gov/dnr/contact/commentform.html This is pretty much a disaster for San Juan Island paddlers as we have also recently lost Clark Island as a campsite/ destination. Steve Scherrer Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45º 39' 47" 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122º 36' 16" Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 14:52:37 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA03624 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA03614 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:52:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.82]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14976 for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from meatball ([24.112.191.196]) by femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010905215223.TUBV3982.femail2.sdc1.sfba.home.com_at_meatball> for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 14:52:23 -0700 Message-ID: <000601c13655$c7b85130$c4bf7018_at_meatball> From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_home.com> To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] Lendal Paddlok system. Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:57:38 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net I just got back from vacation (kayaking in Newfoundland) and had the chance to use a Lendal paddle with the Paddlok system. What is the Paddlok System? It is a relatively new locking mechanism that secures two paddle components together. It is available on two piece and four piece paddles. The one I used was on a two piece. The locking mechanism consists of a barrel-shaped widget inside the male part of the components to be joined. The barrel is oriented perpendicular to the shaft. A button, similar to those we're used to on two piece paddles, comes through the shaft from the center of the barrel widget. The difference is that the button is black, somewhat larger than most buttons, and has a hole in its center. An allen key fits into the hole and engages a hex nut inside. The male part of the shaft has two diametrically-opposed slits in the shaft centered on the barrel thing. The slits are about 40mm long (1 1/2 inch) and are about 25mm (one inch) from the end of the shaft. These slits allow the shaft to expand. The two shaft parts are fit together like a normal paddle, with the button engaging a hole in the side of the female portion of the shaft. When you put the key into the barrel thingy and tighten, the shaft expands and presses firmly against the inside of the female part of the shaft, tightening the joint. The effect of the Paddlok is to considerably tighten the join. As a result, the paddle shaft feels just like a one piece. The join is rock solid - no flex or twisting slippage is felt. This should address the complaint that some have about two piece paddles - that the joint is loose and eventually gets looser due to wear. I suppose one might question the durability. I can't comment on that after only five days using the paddle. It is possible to strip the tightening mechanism by torquing the allen key too tight. It uses plastic parts and is meant to be tightened finger tight. It doesn't take much to generate a solid join, so overtightening isn't needed. Keep the paddle out of the hands of the macho types. Other than that, I can't see why it wouldn't last a good long time. I haven't used the four piece, but examining a paddle in the outfitter's shop didn't leave me with strong reservations about the system. I must admit some mild reservations to the extent that I wouldn't recommend using a four piece when you need a two piece. After all, the forces on the blade-to-shaft join are higher that at the center join. But if a four piece is what you need, this beats the competition that I've seen. Mike PS - you've got to like an outfitter that provides a carbon fiber, bent shaft paddle as standard rental kit! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 17:42:15 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA26731 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:41:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA26726 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:41:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comet.pacifier.com ([199.2.117.155]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA04075 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacifier.com (ip52.ast7.pacifier.com [66.43.11.52]) by comet.pacifier.com (8.11.2/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f860exC10882; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 17:41:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B96C57F.95B3FBEC_at_pacifier.com> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 17:38:23 -0700 From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] San Juan Islands DNR closures References: <00ce01c13655$95a7b280$bb56e1cf_at_oemcomputer> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe wrote: > > Here is a copy <with permission> of text that appeared in the August > Washington Water Trail Association newletter: > > The Department of Natural Resources announced, to San Juan County > commissioners, plans to close multiple DNR facilities in the San Juans. > Among the closures are three Cascadia Marine Trail campsites: Point Doughty > and Obstruction Pass on Orcas Island and Griffin Bay on San Juan Island. > This leaves these two popular San Juan Islands with no CMT sites. > According to Stan Kurowski of DNR, "There is higher use of the sites and our > maintenance budget has been decreasing over the last decade. A second > maintenance person is needed but DNR doesn't have the money." Additionally, > vault toilets on the sites are beginning to leak. Cost to replace a single > toilet is estimated to be over $60,000. [snip] > > You can send comments directly to: > > Doug Sutherland > Commissioner of Public Lands > Department of Natural Resources > PO Box 47001 > Olympia, WA 98504-7001 > Phone: 360.902.1004 > Fax: 360.902.1775 > > Also on the web at: http://www.wa.gov/dnr/contact/commentform.html > > This is pretty much a disaster for San Juan Island paddlers as we have also > recently lost Clark Island as a campsite/ destination. Seems like the closures center on the cost of dealing with human solid waste. CMT might take a page from the Maine Island Trail Association (MITA), which stipulates that visitors to MITA islands will take their "stuff" with them. That ethic, if instilled in the San Juans, might mitigate much of the problem Steve of ACKC describes. In addition, somehow MITA is able to fund two (or three, memory fails) island checkers who arrive in impressive Lund skiffs equipped with serious 70-horse outboards (both on "loan" from the suppliers; the boat driver is a volunteer, I think), so that every MITA campsite gets attention once a week. All that happens for $45/year ($35 is tax-deductable), and results in some three dozen islands MITA members can camp on spread along the Maine coast. (Many more are day-use only.) Although I only spent three nights on a MITA island, I felt the $45 was money well spent. Note: no other fees are assessed at MITA sites, unlike what happens at some CMT sites (not DNR ones, though). I think the Washington Water Trails Association could take a lesson or two from MITA. I'd contribute to a MITA-like system in Puget Sound, though I would probably not use it. What goes around comes around. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 20:15:52 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA13093 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA13077 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:15:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp.nwlink.com (smtp.nwlink.com [209.20.130.57]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA10873 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:15:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nwlink.com (ip38.gte14.rb1.bel.nwlink.com [207.202.154.38]) by smtp.nwlink.com (8.9.3/8.9.1) with ESMTP id UAA21483 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 20:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B96E929.D02CFCEB_at_nwlink.com> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 20:10:33 -0700 From: David Carlson <qajaq_at_nwlink.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.76 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudders and broaching References: <000c01c13606$81ed49c0$d299fea9_at_jwinters> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net John Winters wrote: > <snip> > I was curious what kind of heeling moment I could calculate so using Thomas > Gilmer's formula for heeling moment (also used by the U.S. Navy) and assuming > a sideways velocity of 8.45 ft per second (5 knots), no heel relative to the > water, a path normal to the water flow, an immersed area of 40 square inches, > a centroid equal to half the draft and a displacement of 250 pounds I came up > with a heeling moment of .007 lbs. Perhaps that explains why I could not > detect it. > > John, are you sure you don't have inconsistent units or something? At 0.007 lbs., it would not be worth having a skeg or rudder, since it would be so ineffective. I get more like 25 lbs force or 100 lb in moment at the surface of the water for a rudder immersed 8 inches. However, I have no idea what Thomas Gilmer's formula is, and went to my old fluid dynamics text. I also assumed that you meant that the rudder plate was oriented nomal to the water flow. Regards, Dave Carlson > > > *************************************************************************** > PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed > here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire > responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. > Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net > Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net > Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ > *************************************************************************** *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Wed Sep 5 23:25:06 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA13165 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:24:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA13160 Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:24:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (lsmls02.we.mediaone.net [24.130.1.15]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA05046 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:24:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mediaone.net (we-66-74-153-98.we.mediaone.net [66.74.153.98]) by lsmls02.we.mediaone.net (8.11.4/8.11.3) with ESMTP id f866OF108957 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Wed, 5 Sep 2001 23:24:15 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B9716DC.381402E9_at_mediaone.net> Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2001 23:25:32 -0700 From: Frank Lucian <murpho_at_mediaone.net> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] John's designs with rudders Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net John Winters mentioned: <snip> >I have owned dozens of canoes and kayaks and not one has ever had a rudder. >Those who followed WaveLength (the predecessor to Paddlewise) will recall that >I often argued in favour of boats without rudders... <snip> John, Your designs manufactured by QCC are often pictured with rudders. I'm curious - do you design them to use rudders because that's what the buyers want, or do the manufacturers decide to add them to the boats regardless of your design, or are there other reasons? (Not trying to give you a hard time, I just wonder why the boats we buy often have rudders when the designer paddles without one.) Thanks, Frank *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 01:21:43 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id BAA20039 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA19995 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:21:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emerald.oz.net (emerald2.oz.net [216.39.128.2]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id BAA13522 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oemcomputer (sense-sea-focal-dynamic-1-55.oz.net [216.39.134.55]) by emerald.oz.net (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id BAA13784 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:18:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> To: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudders and broaching Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 01:30:29 -0700 Message-ID: <LPBBIFJPIBOCGNKKPCCEGEMACGAA.mkayaks_at_oz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net John Winter's wrote: >>>>>I was curious what kind of heeling moment I could calculate so using Thomas Gilmer's formula for heeling moment (also used by the U.S. Navy) and assuming a sideways velocity of 8.45 ft per second (5 knots), no heel relative to the water, a path normal to the water flow, an immersed area of 40 square inches, a centroid equal to half the draft and a displacement of 250 pounds I came up with a heeling moment of .007 lbs. Perhaps that explains why I could not detect it. <<<<<< Hi John, I hope your vacation was fun as well as instructive. To understand the above I need some more information and possibly some definitions. First, just what is Gilmer's formula? "no heel relative to the water" Does this assume flat water or does it matter at all to the results? Seems to me that if one is on a wave face the hull not normal to the wave face but upright to the horizon (or more likely even leaned somewhat into the wave crest) that will place the rudder blade at a diving (or snagging) angle relative to the surface (and direction of the kayaks motion) when it plunges back into the water when the paddler has "leaned into" the wave to compensate for the frictional overturning forces resulting from the side-skidding hull? It seems to me (and it has been my experience) that the sudden introduction of that flat plate at a diving angle creates a sudden (and possibly uncompensated for force--at least if it's not been anticipated) being added to the overturning forces that already exist in this situation. The problems I have experienced come when the rudder or stern mounted skeg is hanging back off the top of a steep wave or breaker (totally in the air) and then re-enters the green water suddenly while I'm skidding the stern sideways. Also, it might not take too much extra force to trip the kayak into a hull angle where the other capsizing forces are not being adequately compensated for. At this point if one attempts to lean back into the wave an equal and opposite reaction on the hull will potentially tilt the kayak even further over down wave and into an even more vulnerable position (to the capsizing forces--much like catching the down wave rail when side surfing a slalom kayak--or a catching a downhill edge on side slipping skis). However, I think the main reason you got such a low number for the heeling force due to the rudder using Gilmer's formula was because it looks to me like you have made the rudder blade no deeper than the bottom of the hull in your assumptions (if I'm understanding what he means by the location of the centroid being only 1/2 the draft correctly). That would mean that the tipping force due to the rudder would be at essentially the same depth as the tipping force due to the 250 pound hull moving sideways through the water. Since the rudders and skegs I've had a problem with extended well below the keel line of the kayaks maybe you can try the formula again using the center of lateral resistance on the rudder at least as deep as the draft of the hull. If the draft of the kayak is 4" that would make the rudder 5" wide and 8" long. It appears to me you used a rudder that's 10" inches wide and only immersed 4" deep when you did your calculations. There are not many rudders like that. How about a more likely 3" wide rudder immersed 12.5" deep so the center is then 6.25" deep or 2.25" below the draft of the kayak. The diving plane angle of the rudder in a real broaching situation should also push the center of lateral resistance of the rudder even lower down the blade (as will the momentum of the stern plunging the rudder back down into the water from way above it). I hope you can share the Gilmer formula with us so we can see what the much deeper drafts of most rudders will be when using it. As long as your rudder remains in contact with the water to and helping compensate for broaching you will already be compensating for any additional tipping moment caused by the rudder at the same time you are compensating for the tipping moment due to hull friction and hull shape. It's only the sudden reintroduction of the rudder into the water that I've found potentially upsetting. I also soon learned to predict just about when it would happen and how much to compensate for it (at least when it was happening repeatedly with the first kayaks Cam and I owned). It was still damn annoying though. Also, along with a much deeper centroid I think you should increase the speed since I was catching fairly fast waves and had begun to surf them before the broaches (at the times I've most noticed the rudder or skeg snagging problem). I think 7 to 10 knots would probably be a more realistic speed range to use in the formula (too best model the cases where the rudder snagging problem has seized my full attention). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 04:39:41 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id EAA21457 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA21452 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:39:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11142 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f86BdIp16385 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:39:18 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id EAA21561 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA11841 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:07:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Riversweeper_at_aol.com Received: from imo-r04.mx.aol.com (imo-r04.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.100]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA22943 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 04:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Riversweeper_at_aol.com by imo-r04.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v31_r1.4.) id e.ce.19d74f5e (2178) for <HudsonSweeper_at_aol.com>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:07:33 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <ce.19d74f5e.28c8b2f4_at_aol.com> Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 07:07:32 EDT Subject: [Paddlewise] Hudson River and the International Coastal Cleanup Day To: HudsonSweeper_at_aol.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 124 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Cold Spring, Putnam County, NY will be one of the 276 sites in New York State of this year's International Coastal Cleanup Day. Date: September 8 Time: 10 AM Launch site for kayaks and canoes: Foundry Dock Park (next to Metro North Station). Low Tide will be about 10AM, Slack Before Flood will be around 12:30 and Maximum Flood to be about 3PM. We can paddle southward and ride the beginning of the Flood Tide back. Bags, data cards, posters and certificates have been received...and will be distributed on Saturday. If you cannot come...but would like to know how you can help next year...contact the American Littoral Society at <www.alsnyc.org>...or...The Ocean Conservancy at <www.oceanconservancy.org>. Walt Thompson www.RiverSweeper.org *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 06:04:43 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA19053 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA19048 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from moe.intelos.net (moe.intelos.net [216.12.23.230]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA04494 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:04:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 29248 invoked from network); 6 Sep 2001 09:04:21 -0400 Received: from chas2-216-12-119-33.access.ntelos.net (HELO newwave.net) (216.12.119.33) by moe.intelos.net with SMTP; 6 Sep 2001 09:04:21 -0400 Message-ID: <3B979F5E.DB98AA2E_at_newwave.net> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 09:07:58 -0700 From: David Walker <dwalker_at_newwave.net> Reply-To: dwalker_at_newwave.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.75 [en]C-{C-UDP; FedEx} (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Evan Dallas <Evan_Dallas_at_notes.ntrs.com> CC: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Homemade J-cradles References: <86256ABE.00693C9C.00_at_chi-g01.ntrs.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Hi Evan, I'm not sure if this is the one you're looking for but on Ross Liedy's Kayak building page( http://ross.secant.com/kayak/ ) he has some very nice pictures about how he built two different J-cradles from wood. What he refers to in the text as - Guillemot cradles and Panache cradles. fwiw, David Evan Dallas wrote: > A while back (maybe a year ago), someone provided a link to his personal web > page discussing how he made some J-cradles from laminated wood veneer strips (I > think). Could you (or anyone else who knows the link) either post that link > again or send it to me back-channel. Thanks! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 06:17:58 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA22480 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA22474 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.143]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA11240 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:17:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([65.2.168.174]) by femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010906131744.CCDL1331.femail16.sdc1.sfba.home.com_at_[192.168.1.2]> for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:17:44 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: guille_at_mail148.pair.com Message-Id: <a0501040bb7bd263c09c7_at_[192.168.1.2]> In-Reply-To: <000c01c13606$81ed49c0$d299fea9_at_jwinters> References: <000c01c13606$81ed49c0$d299fea9_at_jwinters> Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:17:41 -0400 To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> From: Nick Schade <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudders and broaching Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net > >I was curious what kind of heeling moment I could calculate so using Thomas >Gilmer's formula for heeling moment (also used by the U.S. Navy) and assuming >a sideways velocity of 8.45 ft per second (5 knots), no heel relative to the >water, a path normal to the water flow, an immersed area of 40 square inches, >a centroid equal to half the draft and a displacement of 250 pounds I came up >with a heeling moment of .007 lbs. Perhaps that explains why I could not >detect it. Shouldn't the units be (foot pounds)? Or is this just the force on the rudder and it is applied through the center of force of the rudder so you would need to multiply by the vertical distance between the center of gravity and the center of force to get the torque? I would expect the tipping force would be the same as the turning force with the the difference in torque being the different moment arm (horizontal distance vs vertical distance). Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 06:19:09 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA22650 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA22645 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:19:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.85]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA11472 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:19:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([65.2.168.174]) by femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with ESMTP id <20010906131903.DUAP557.femail5.sdc1.sfba.home.com_at_[192.168.1.2]> for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:19:03 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: guille_at_mail148.pair.com Message-Id: <a0501040ab7bd247ea0e2_at_[192.168.1.2]> In-Reply-To: <LPBBIFJPIBOCGNKKPCCEGEMACGAA.mkayaks_at_oz.net> References: <LPBBIFJPIBOCGNKKPCCEGEMACGAA.mkayaks_at_oz.net> Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:19:00 -0400 To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> From: Nick Schade <schade_at_guillemot-kayaks.com> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rudders and broaching Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net At 1:30 AM -0700 9/6/01, Matt Broze wrote: > >The problems I have experienced come when the rudder or stern mounted skeg >is hanging back off the top of a steep wave or breaker (totally in the air) >and then re-enters the green water suddenly while I'm skidding the stern >sideways. It is possible that in a situation like this the rudder has significant forward motion through the water. If this is the case the force on the rudder may be greater. Not only would there be the drag force from the sideways motion through the water, but there could be a wing-like lift component creating more torque. However, if John's calculations are correct (.007 lbs) and we assume a wildly optimistic increase in force, say 10 times. That still is only .07 lbs or just over 1 ounce. While this may be the straw that breaks camels back and flips over a closely balanced paddler, it doesn't seem to be enough to account for Matt's experience. Nick -- Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 (860) 659-8847 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 06:39:49 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id GAA29036 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA29031 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web11601.mail.yahoo.com (web11601.mail.yahoo.com [216.136.172.53]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA23550 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:39:26 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <20010906133926.70170.qmail_at_web11601.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [24.189.134.82] by web11601.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 06 Sep 2001 06:39:26 PDT Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:39:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Jack Gilman <hudsonsb_at_yahoo.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] Wooden Boat Festival At Cold Spring NY Sept 15th To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Hi All- A Hudson River Celebration of Handmade Boats will be held (rain or shine) Saturday, Sept. 15 from 10 a.m. to 3 p.m. at Foundry Dock Park, across from the Metro North train station in the Village of Cold Spring, in the midst of the Hudson River Highlands. Below is the schedule for the event. All persons bringing boats are asked to arrive at Foundry Cove between 7:30 and 9:00am. The reason for the early time is to get all boats into the park before any foot traffic starts. This will allow you to drive up to the setup area before the park is closed to vehicle traffic. If you plan on bringing a boat, we would like a confirmation that you will be there, and the number of boats that you are bringing. We are anticipating enough room for all boats to be shown. We also could use volunteers to help with setup and cleanup. Contact us if you will be able to volunteer. The public is invited to participate in a noon ecumenical blessing of the fleet, a nautical custom for good luck. Also there will be other paddling events, informational displays and live music. Admission is free and a food vendor will be on-site. Schedule: 7:30 - 9:00 am Arrive to set up. 9:00 Park closes to vehicle traffic (late arrivals can hand carry boats) 10:00 Folks arive, hang with boats, answer questions 11 - 11:30 Start to launch for blessing 11:45 Speeches by VIP’s 12:00 Get Blessed! 12:30 Form up for Race (fun event, only competitve for 1st 3 finishers...) 1:00 Race Start 1:30 Set up for Paddle-By 1:45 Return to Landing for Show or Demos (optional) 3:00 Wind down. Demo boats (optional) rolling demo? Also there will be a tour of the site of the old West Point Foundry. After: Go for paddle! (optional) Any other questions, more info, etc., please get back to me: Jack Gilman Hudsonsb_at_yahoo.com ===== * Check out the Yonkers Paddling & Rowing Club online at www.yprc.org. ---------------------------------------------- See you on the river! Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger http://im.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 09:34:15 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id JAA23623 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA23618 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comet.pacifier.com ([199.2.117.155]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA16294 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:33:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacifier.com (ip31.ast5.pacifier.com [66.43.10.31]) by comet.pacifier.com (8.11.2/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f86GXBC26598; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B97A4A7.F5162C39_at_pacifier.com> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 09:30:31 -0700 From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] Well-designed Rocket Box Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net A year ago or so someone came out with a well-designed rocket box (system for accepting and containign human solid waste), which was advertised in Sea Kayaker, IIRC. Have searched the last few issues and can not find the ad. This was a fold-out model which collapsed small enough to fit inside a typical sea kayak hatch. I believe a list member bought one and tested it. I'm in the market for such a unit. Anybody recall the manufacturer, or a URL leading to their web page? Thanks. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 10:38:17 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12665 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12660 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:37:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25802 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f86HbZp17408 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:37:36 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21708 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA25219 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from imf04bis.bellsouth.net (mail004.mail.bellsouth.net [205.152.58.24]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16853 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 06:24:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bdenton ([208.61.114.133]) by imf04bis.bellsouth.net (InterMail vM.5.01.01.01 201-252-104) with ESMTP id <20010906132501.DHSZ7094.imf04bis.bellsouth.net_at_bdenton>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:25:01 -0400 Reply-To: <bob_at_ecozoneintl.com> From: "Bob Denton" <gulfstream_at_flinet.com> To: "'Michael Daly'" <michaeldaly_at_home.com>, "'Paddlewise'" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Lendal Paddlok system. Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:25:33 -0400 Organization: EcoZone International Message-ID: <003901c136d7$68233190$39773dd0_at_bdenton> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.2616 In-Reply-To: <000601c13655$c7b85130$c4bf7018_at_meatball> Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net I use the Lendal bent shaft carbon as well. The outfitter is smart! Best was to sell a superior product is to have the customer fall in love with it! I imagine the US$ vs CAN$ makes it quite attractive as well for us south of the border. > > PS - you've got to like an outfitter that provides a carbon > fiber, bent shaft paddle as > standard rental kit! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 10:39:37 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA12848 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA12840 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:39:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26159 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:39:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f86HdUp17421 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:39:30 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA21720 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 10:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA14764 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from thomnet1.thomcs.net (thomnet1.thomcs.net [63.105.231.2]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA28073 for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 09:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ckmoye (ts2-92.thomcs.net [63.105.231.92]) by thomnet1.thomcs.net (Build 101 8.9.3/NT-8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA03020 for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Thu, 06 Sep 2001 11:09:32 -0500 Message-ID: <001b01c136ee$9a772360$5ce7693f_at_ckmoye> From: "Cliff and Kim Moye" <ckmoye_at_staroute.com> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] wind speed Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:11:34 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: from multipart/alternative by demime 0.92b X-Converted-To-Plain-Text: Alternative section used was text/plain Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Hey Rick, Here in the grain belt we have to monitor wind speed very closely for applications of pesticides. A good supply company that carries a half dozen different hand held indicators is www.gemplers.com hit crop mgmt and go about half way down . They have a very kayak-friendly version for 15$. Cliff, (and if I have a tail wind, I know I am lost) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 11:14:07 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA24344 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA24339 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:12:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sage.coe.uga.edu (sage.coe.uga.edu [128.192.22.2]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA19977 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:12:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sage.coe.uga.edu (cramer.tsars.uga.edu [128.192.52.52]) by sage.coe.uga.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA23352 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:12:09 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3B97BD62.35C6A18E_at_sage.coe.uga.edu> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 14:16:02 -0400 From: Steve Cramer <cramer_at_coe.uga.edu> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win98; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Well-designed Rocket Box References: <3B97A4A7.F5162C39_at_pacifier.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Dave Kruger wrote: > > A year ago or so someone came out with a well-designed rocket box (system for > accepting and containign human solid waste), ... > > Anybody recall the manufacturer, or a URL leading to their web page? I think this is what you're referring to. I've used the Boombox on a 4-person 4-day trip, and it's rather comfortable. I think it's rated at 20 person-days. http://www.eco-safe.net/ -- Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 14:26:23 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA23351 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA23345 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:25:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25647 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:25:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f86LPFp17704 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:25:15 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id OAA21810 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA06898 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:55:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate.Ferguson.com (mailgate.ferguson.com [205.139.23.72]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA18494 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 11:55:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mailgate.Ferguson.com (Postfix, from userid 66) id 925B49B83; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:53:41 -0400 (EDT) Received: from vsgw.ferguson.com(205.139.23.85) via SMTP by mailgate.ferguson.com, id smtpdP58689; Thu Sep 6 14:53:39 2001 Received: from fei0018m002.hq.ferg.com ([172.16.105.14]) by vsgw.ferguson.com (NAVGW 2.5.1.12) with SMTP id M2001090614521019997 ; Thu, 06 Sep 2001 14:52:10 -0400 Received: by fei0018m002.hq.ferg.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) id <SK2R5KC6>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:52:10 -0400 Message-ID: <FB96ADD85ECD2D48A51AB103F4F19AD6F0A884_at_fei0018m002.hq.ferg. com> From: Rick Sylvia <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferginc.com> To: "'Cliff and Kim Moye'" <ckmoye_at_staroute.com>, "'PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net'" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: RE: [Paddlewise] wind speed Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 14:52:01 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2653.19) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net > Hey Rick, > Here in the grain belt we have to monitor wind speed very closely for > applications of pesticides. A good supply company that > carries a half dozen > different hand held indicators is > www.gemplers.com hit crop > mgmt and go about half way down . They have a very > kayak-friendly version > for 15$. > Found it - thanks. If it's reasonably reliable, I think it's what I'm looking for - easy to use, inexpensive, compact, and no worries with electronics in and around the water. Thanks for the help! Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 17:11:46 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id RAA16394 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16353 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta02.mail.mel.aone.net.au (mta02.mail.au.uu.net [203.2.192.82]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA12579 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 17:11:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from peter ([63.34.214.123]) by mta02.mail.mel.aone.net.au with SMTP id <20010907001120.OGFF22650.mta02.mail.mel.aone.net.au_at_peter> for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:11:20 +1000 From: "Peter Treby" <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> To: "Paddlewise Submissions (E-mail)" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] WIND SPEED Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:14:20 +1000 Message-ID: <000301c13732$12b79c40$0202a8c0_at_peter> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook CWS, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Rick Sylvia asked "I'm thinking about buying a small inexpensive anemometer. Cheapest I've found is roughly $50 (US)." I recently bought a small one for about $12.95 USD from a US kite shop supplier via the internet. "Thermometer-style Dwyer wind meter. Accurate, and if cared for will last many years (we bought ours in 1989). Until we stock them, purchase from Hang-em High Fabrics online <http://www.citystar.com/hang-em-high> for $12.95 plus shipping (search term = METER)." The total cost including shipping to Australia ended up about $30 AUD. The same thing sells here for about $60 AUD. It uses a light ball pushed up a column, with two ranges, up to 10 mph, and higher. It's easy to use, but has to be kept dry, so only useable on shore. Suits me. They supplied one calibrated in mph. Might be better to get one calibrated in knots. Peter Treby. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 18:36:25 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id SAA12911 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA12904 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:35:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA05927 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:35:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f871ZvJ18287 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:35:57 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id SAA22011 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA06018 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from femail38.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail38.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.254.60.32]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA23269 for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from meatball ([24.112.191.196]) by femail38.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010907011322.ONGI24024.femail38.sdc1.sfba.home.com_at_meatball> for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 18:13:22 -0700 Message-ID: <001b01c1373b$0697e2e0$c4bf7018_at_meatball> From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_home.com> To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] Kayaking Heaven - well, Newfoundland actually. Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 21:18:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Imagine kayaking in a place where you see no other kayakers, no powerboats, no jet skis, no snakes, no raccoons or skunks. A place where you do see whales, bald eagles, icebergs and bergy bits, soaring rock cliffs, sea stacks and sea caves. Notre Dame Bay in Newfoundland fits the bill. Amie and I were fussing over a vacation spot. We finally settled on Newfoundland. We got in touch with several outfitters before deciding on Explore Newfoundland (http://www.explorekayaking.com). They put together a package that included everything, including airfare, car rental, accommodations and vouchers for all the activities we were to attend. They also provided kayaks, paddles, stove and fuel and shuttles - for supplies and maps as well as to and from our destination. They even gave us a lift to town for dinner one night! We learned something about drivers in this part of Newfoundland. They never lose their keys because they leave them in the ignition when they park - there's no fear of theft. We arrived at Marble Inn and met our hosts, Joe Dicks and Ed English. They and their crew ran the inn and cabins, a kayak and canoe retail outlet (new NDK Explorers at C$2900!!!), a sea and river kayaking outfitting and guiding company, a travel agency, Lendal paddle and NDK kayak importers (the only North American alternative to uno-who), two lighthouse bed & breakfasts, and lord knows what else. Joe and Ed sat down and chatted with us. After establishing whom we knew in common, we were treated like old friends. We were to find that they always found time to chat with us. The next day was scheduled to be a rest day, but we were off to town to stock up on food for the trip. Then they offered us kayaks to check out. I was given an NDK Explorer for the trip. I asked about the extra cost (as per their web site) - "We'll work something out!" I was told. I was told that several times before I realized he meant - no upgrade charge! Amie got a Looksha IV. We were both given Lendal carbon fiber bent shaft paddles with Archipelago blades (C$300+ paddles in a rental fleet? Not bad!) We paddled on the Humber River out back of the inn for almost two hours. On return, we talked to "the family" and played with Joe's kids (two boys, 6 & 4 and a girl 20 mo.) The little girl is the sweetest thing. Amie wanted to snitch her and take her home! They also had a big dog, several cats, and any other animal that wandered by and chose to stay! We were scheduled to paddle on the south shore, from Rose Blanche to Burgeo, a roadless stretch of inlets, islands and fishing villages (called settlements in the Newfoundland patois). I could see from the air flight into Newfoundland that this was not to be. Whitecaps filled the Gulf of St. Laurence and the beaches on the south shore were white with surf. Plan B was to paddle on the north side. We chose the west part of Notre Dame Bay. Day One of the trip started early. Ed looked for the 1:50,000 maps - no luck! And they couldn't be purchased in town on short notice. I had to use the 1:250,000 scale topo maps that are little better than a service station road map. We launched from Kings Point on Green Bay, a long thin finger of water. It was completely blanketed in fog; we couldn't see the far side of the bay. I quickly realized that without my compass (packed away), there was no guarantee that we wouldn't go around in circles. By the time we reached the eastern shore of the bay, we were about a half-kilometer off course! The fog blew over to the west side and left us paddling in clear sunny weather with the opposite shore invisible. Two bald eagles soared out of the trees and led us up the bay. We stopped for lunch and after retrieving the compass, I realized I'd forgotten the sunscreen! Amie had two sample-sized packets and offered them to me, on the theory that her dark complexion would minimize her burning. That was not to be, as we shall see. (Note to self - pack a bunch of these sample packets into the first aid kit.) On launching after lunch, a whale surfaced just offshore - a small whale - pilot or pothead. Two eagles and a whale in the first hour - not a bad start! It soon occurred to me how different this was from what I was expecting. Georgian Bay features lots of small, low islands. Nova Scotia has larger, higher islands with lots of access points. This part of Newfoundland has tall towering cliffs with hills soaring above that. The steep rock reveals small gravel beaches with few flat spots for tents. This was to be more challenging than I anticipated! Towards the end of the day I started scouting beaches as a Plan B backup in case we had to return. We never made it out of the bay the first day. I was not sure where we were and the map didn't help. Lots of little coves and bays were shown as a straight line on the map. You really need 1:50,000 for this area. We found a good beach and set up the tent. After preparing a great meal (salmon steaks with rice and fresh veggies) I pulled out the GPS to confirm the position. This was the first time I'd ever used the GPS for real navigating - I'd always used just map and compass before. It turned out we were a couple of kilometers closer to the start than I thought. I began to worry whether we'd make it to our destination on time! Day Two dawned clear and mild. The weather promised to be good and it was as good as it gets. We rounded the tip of Green Bay and headed to Little Bay Islands. The ocean was calm, with a barely noticeable swell. The sun beat down on my minimal coating of sunscreen and I got off with a light burn. Amie turned darker and darker, with a light burn to boot. Beaches were hard to find and we were tired - it turned out to be the second longest and the hottest day. We finally paddled up to a great looking spot - Murcell Cove. It had low cliffs on either side of the beach and a gently sloping hill behind. The only drawback was the rotting corpse of a seal on the beach. With the wind blowing off the land, I wasn't going to let that bother me. Clouds had been coming in for a while and just as we set up the tent, the rain came down. Normally, I'd have dived into the tent. Instead, I was so mellow from the paddling experience that I meandered around the campsite, slowly stripping off my wet tee shirt and shorts and letting the rain wash off the salt and sweat. The fact that it was getting cold didn't faze me at all. Amie and I eventually crawled into the tent to read and nap. We weren't too hungry, having had good meals up to this point, so we skipped cooking in favor of bagels and peanut butter - in between the bouts of rain, that is. Day Three was absolutely cloudless. It was cool enough for fleece sweaters during breakfast. The sun dried out our gear while we ate. The horizon seemed so far away; the sky so blue right to the sea! No smoggy, polluted haze. What a wonderful morning! While we packed up the tent, I became aware of an awful, stinky-feet kind of smell. After discreetly checking myself, I gave Amie an "Oooo Amie!" kind of look. She looked back at me and said "Boy, that seal really stinks!" Oh yeah, the seal! The wind was now blowing in from the sea. This ended up as our longest day. While milder in temperature, the sun burned on. Amie now was quite dark, rather burned and her sunglasses had given her a "raccoon face" tan. The sea was a little rougher that day, with little waves on a slight swell. The most open part of the crossing to Lushes Bight gave us the treat of two-foot swells. Pretty tame by most standards, but it was a welcome change from the mirror-smooth seas of the two previous days. We found an arch of stone at one point of land. I paddled into it, being lifted and pushed around by the swell. Not something this Great Lakes paddler is used to! I then paddled through a little rock garden, trying to time my passage with the swell to avoid hitting rocks. This was baby stuff compared to what Doug L. and company do, but it was fun for me to try. I began thinking in terms of a plastic Skerray with helmet to practice this in. and maybe elbow pads. and shoulder pads. maybe a face protector. padded gloves. In Lushes Bight, a settlement of about 400 people, we landed on a beach for lunch. A man and his gang of kids, with cousins, friends and hangers-on, paraded over to say Hi! It isn't often that strangers in skinny boats arrive, so they had to check us out. We chatted a bit, while other townsfolk drove by and stopped to see what's up. We offered the kids cookies, but they turned them down. Amie gave them to Dad, so he offered them to the kids and they munched happily. So shy and, I guess, street smart in a very safe, remote community. They left and while we packed up, another little girl, about eight or ten years old, came to watch. She was absolutely adorable with long blond hair and a pixie smile. She said she liked kayaks and wanted to learn how to paddle. Amie encouraged her to get her parents to let her do it and showed her how to get in the kayak and hold the paddle. We steered a course to Brighton to camp, on a point almost inside the town. It was our last night out, and I was starting to regret the end of a short trip. We feasted on pasta with pesto sauce, eaten on a large flat rock like a table. After dinner, we wandered to the town side of the point and watched the slow, almost imperceptible activities of the settlement across the bay while the sun drifted down. The next morning was a repeat of the previous. Our meager supply of sunscreen was almost gone so we longed for cloud. No luck - it was clear and sunny as far as the eye could see. I gave the last bit of sunscreen, so preciously hoarded, to Amie. Her face was dark reddish brown, already peeling, and her arms the color of dark teak. We both opted for wet suits and long sleeves that day. We paddled into town to find a phone so we could alert the outfitters where to pick us up. There were no pay phones in town, but a local let us use the phone in his workshop. "We've never had a tourist ask to use the phone before" he said. We talked about kayaking for a while. He was amazed that we traveled all the way from Kings Point in these little boats. "You're more courageous than me, b'y (boy, pronounced bye in NF)" he said, "You must know more about the sea than I do!" This from a Newfoundland fisherman! I don't know half what he knows, but I wasn't going to debate it with him. His wife, doggy in tow, and a neighbor came over. We chatted some more and with friendly goodbye waves, made our way to the next destination. I hadn't looked at the map in a while. Knowing that Brighton Tickle (a tickle is a small channel of water) was to the south, we headed off. The wind was quite stiff by now and we found ourselves beating into it all the way down the shore. After an hour, we pulled ashore to snack and check the map. We had covered barely two kilometers! And the tickle was that teensy little passage we passed an hour ago! *^&%#_at_ map! It only took fifteen minutes to return, surfing most of the way. Through the tickle, it was only a few kilometers to the end at Triton (Troytown on old maps). There we found a kayak outfitter that welcomed us. He let us use his dock and shed to land and get changed. He offered us his house to wait in. "I have to go now," he said, "But you can stay if you like." They don't lock their doors in these parts of Newfoundland; they still have faith in their fellow man. Welcome to Atlantic Canada, one of the only civilized places left on earth. Dirk picked us up a while later. He offered us some fresh-baked date squares that Diane made that morning back at the Inn. A crowning touch to a great trip; but what do you expect from a class outfitter? That may have been the end of the kayaking, but not the end of the trip. We picked up a rental car and headed off to Gros Morne National Park. This beautiful, much-hyped park was, to be honest, a letdown after the experiences we had kayaking. After all, looking at the park can't compare with touching, breathing, smelling and tasting the environment to the north. Next day was busy, driving to L'Anse au Meadows and the site of the first Viking settlement in North America. A fascinating place for those with an interest in history. Finally, the activity that turned out to be the highlight of the trip for me. We drove to Quirpon (pronounced karpoon!), boarded a small fishing boat to Quirpon Island and stayed at the lighthouse keeper's cottage for the night. Ed had purchased it when the lighthouse became automated and runs it as a bed and breakfast. What a fabulous site! Perched high on a cliff, the house sits just inland from the lighthouse. No trees on this big island, it's a hilly mass of rock, lichen, low bush and bog. The house was beautifully restored with wood walls and very tasteful furnishings. The beds have big fluffy pillows and soft, high thread-count sheets, all covered with handmade quilts. The towels are thick and soft. The art on the walls is from local artists and is available for purchase. Doris, the housekeeper, treated us to a good meal of cod. We headed out to the helipad and watched for whales. Sure enough, a big one (minke?) surfaced just below the cliff. We retreated into the house and chatted with the other guests before heading off to bed. The morning brought yet another spectacular day. Sitting on the "throne" in the washroom, I could see the lighthouse with the Atlantic in the background. What a view! After a hearty breakfast, we were allowed to climb up into the lighthouse, see the workings of the light and wander around the outside platform. Wow! I've always wanted to do that! I banged off a roll of film just there. Later, sitting on the porch of the house, I felt an overwhelming sense of peace. This, to someone who as a boy wanted to be a lighthouse keeper, was heaven on earth. A spectacular view, the cliffs all round, the seagulls crying from every direction, whales spouts rising in the distance - I could spend three lifetimes there. What a great way to end the trip. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 19:21:16 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id TAA26234 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:19:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA26229 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pltdpop4.ptld.uswest.net (ptldpop4.ptld.uswest.net [198.36.160.4]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA00894 for <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:19:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 28550 invoked by alias); 7 Sep 2001 02:19:48 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net_at_fixme Received: (qmail 28535 invoked by uid 0); 7 Sep 2001 02:19:48 -0000 Received: from dialupo103.ptld.uswest.net (HELO oemcomputer) (216.161.84.103) by ptldpop4.ptld.uswest.net with SMTP; 7 Sep 2001 02:19:48 -0000 Message-ID: <00d401c13746$31fd3240$f758e1cf_at_oemcomputer> From: "Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe" <aldercreek_at_qwest.net> To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> References: <001b01c1373b$0697e2e0$c4bf7018_at_meatball> Subject: [Paddlewise] more SJ DNR news Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 19:38:36 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4522.1200 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net DNR SITE CLOSINGS DNR San Juan Cascadia Marine Trail campsites remain open for now. As fall sets in, things are heating up for DNR. Closures are now put off "until agreement is reached." Read more in the Tacoma News Tribune http://search.tribnet.com/archive/archive30/0905c61.html. KPLU 88.5 Radio, a local NPR affiliate, also explored this issue on its September 6th Morning Edition broadcast. Keep the pressure on by writing DNR: Doug Sutherland Commissioner of Public Lands Dept. of Natural Resources PO Box 47001 Olympia, WA 98504-7001 Phone: 360.902.1004 Fax: 360.902.1775 and your state representative. You can find addresses at http://dfind.leg.wa.gov/. Steve Scherrer Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45º 39' 47" 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122º 36' 16" Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 20:15:50 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA14562 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA14555 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from emerald.oz.net (emerald2.oz.net [216.39.128.2]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA06186 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oemcomputer (sense-sea-focal-dynamic-10-41.oz.net [216.39.143.105]) by emerald.oz.net (8.9.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id UAA17576 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:13:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> To: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] San Juan Islands DNR closures Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:25:05 -0700 Message-ID: <LPBBIFJPIBOCGNKKPCCEKEMDCGAA.mkayaks_at_oz.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net >>>>>>.Here is a copy <with permission> of text that appeared in the August Washington Water Trail Association newletter:The Department of Natural Resources announced, to San Juan County commissioners, plans to close multiple DNR facilities in the San Juans. Among the closures are three Cascadia Marine Trail campsites: Point Doughty and Obstruction Pass on Orcas Island and Griffin Bay on San Juan Island. This leaves these two popular San Juan Islands with no CMT sites. According to Stan Kurowski of DNR, "There is higher use of the sites and our maintenance budget has been decreasing over the last decade. A second maintenance person is needed but DNR doesn't have the money." Additionally, vault toilets on the sites are beginning to leak. Cost to replace a single toilet is estimated to be over $60,000.<<<<<<<< Before Washington Water trails came along and identified all the existing camping possibilities for kayakers and then advertised them all around the country as the Cascadia Marine Trail these DNR sites were relatively unknown and were not being overused. The original intent of WA Water Trails organization was to create more camping spaces. While that never happened to any significant extent those already existing camping spaces were heavily promoted and hyped as a "Water Trail". They became a destination for kayakers from all around the country. It looks to me like WA Water Trails may now have succeeded in accomplishing the exact opposite of their original goal. Kayakers may now be losing some of the best sites they had in the San Juan Islands. The large influx of paddlers to the area already has many of the islands local residents doing what they can to deny kayakers access to "their" islands by making access near most of the ferry docks impossible (where it had previously been easy). I also suspect that this news from DNR may actually be a ploy to ease transferring authority for them to another agency (that can then charge for camping at these sites) possibly even the water trails organization itself. It seems pretty ludicrous that an agency that can't afford to maintain a site will have no trouble footing the surely much larger bill to remove all the existing facilities. I wonder what it would cost to fix the leak rather than replace the toilet with one of the $60,000 ones. Does anyone know why the Clark Island site was closed? I was unaware of that closure until reading it here. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Thu Sep 6 20:38:22 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id UAA21317 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:38:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA21278 Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from hotmail.com (f258.law9.hotmail.com [64.4.8.133]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA18738 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:38:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Thu, 6 Sep 2001 20:38:06 -0700 Received: from 63.61.122.233 by lw9fd.law9.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Fri, 07 Sep 2001 03:38:06 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.61.122.233] From: "James Tibensky" <jimtibensky_at_hotmail.com> To: dkruger_at_pacifier.com, paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Well-designed Rocket Box Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 22:38:06 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: <F258Qba3wXl83KFie4Y000093ed_at_hotmail.com> X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Sep 2001 03:38:06.0250 (UTC) FILETIME=[817CC8A0:01C1374E] Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Eco-safe makes the Boombox reviewed in SK. I have one and am really pleased with it. Can't imagine there's a better one out there that fits the sport so well. www.eco-safe.com, I think. Jim Tibensky >From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> >To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> >Subject: [Paddlewise] Well-designed Rocket Box >Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 09:30:31 -0700 > >A year ago or so someone came out with a well-designed rocket box (system >for >accepting and containign human solid waste), which was advertised in Sea >Kayaker, IIRC. Have searched the last few issues and can not find the ad. > >This was a fold-out model which collapsed small enough to fit inside a >typical >sea kayak hatch. I believe a list member bought one and tested it. > >I'm in the market for such a unit. > >Anybody recall the manufacturer, or a URL leading to their web page? > >Thanks. > >-- >Dave Kruger >Astoria, OR >*************************************************************************** >PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed >here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire >responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. >Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net >Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net >Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ >*************************************************************************** _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Fri Sep 7 00:02:51 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id AAA25288 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA25254 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from comet.pacifier.com ([199.2.117.155]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA21693 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pacifier.com (ip63.ast1.pacifier.com [66.43.8.63]) by comet.pacifier.com (8.11.2/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f87706C14486; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 00:00:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B986FD2.A8F557B9_at_pacifier.com> Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2001 23:57:22 -0700 From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Well-designed Rocket Box References: <F258Qba3wXl83KFie4Y000093ed_at_hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net James Tibensky wrote: > > Eco-safe makes the Boombox reviewed in SK. I have one and am really pleased > with it. Can't imagine there's a better one out there that fits the sport > so well. www.eco-safe.com, I think. Thanks to you and to Steve Cramer for helping out. That's the one. Alder Creek in Portland sells them, turns out. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Fri Sep 7 05:13:45 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id FAA27414 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 05:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA27409 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 05:12:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from onlink6.onlink.net (onlink6.onlink.net [206.108.253.65]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id FAA02409 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 05:12:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jwinters (nrba2-1.onlink.net [209.105.208.201]) by onlink6.onlink.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with SMTP id f87CCjJ144800 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:12:46 -0400 Message-ID: <000d01c13796$8cde8560$d299fea9_at_jwinters> From: "John Winters" <jwinters_at_onlink.net> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> References: <200109061319.GAA22660_at_ns1.intelenet.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] Rudders and broaching Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 08:13:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Kevin wrote: > > Your sideways pulling test may work a little better with a total novice with > > no concept of edge control in the cockpit. Did that. Not a total novice but pretty close. Must have been a novice because she had a rudder on her boat. :-) >>Attach the rope to the vertical > > balance point where pulling on the boat causes no capsize moment when the > > rudder/skeg is up. Since I was looking at relative heeling moments attaching at the CG seemed sensible. >>Then deploy the rudder/skeg, and see how fast the novice > > gets dunked. Repeat 100 times for statistical accuracy. Any volunteers? Didn't try it that many times. Volunteers bore easily. Hey, Wait a minute. Where were you when I asked for test methods I could use? :-) Dave Kruger wrote: >Comment on the "pull on the vertical balance point" method of testing whether >the skeg/rudder inhibits capsize: Unless you run the line through the hull and >attach to the centerline of the hull, you will not get the full effect, because >the line's pull inhibits rotation of the hull around the centerline. In >otherwords, as the yak begins to capsize and rotate toward the puller, the line >(if attached to the outside of the hull) will exert a component of pull in the >upward direction, inhibiting capsize towards the line. Right. I used the approximate CG of the paddler which lies approximately at the navel. Given the seat height of the boat I used that meant the CG was just slightly above the cockpit rim on the centerline. Not perfect but hopefully some one else will strive for perfection in the future. Dave Carlson wrote: > John, are you sure you don't have inconsistent units or something? Right units but a more serious error. First I did a keyboard mistake (fat fingers small calculator). Second, I remembered the formula correctly but it delivers the righting ARM not the righting MOMENT. Boy is my face red. The formula for salt water is V^2*Area*lever arm /displacement. So for an area of 0.2777 sq.ft, a velocity of 8.45 ft/sec, and lever arm of .1667' (centroid of rudder - centroid of hull) I get 71.40 * .2777 * .1667 / 250 = .01322 for the heeling arm. The heeling moment would be 3.30. Big difference but not sure how noticeable (wasn't for me). > I also assumed that you meant that > the rudder plate was oriented nomal to the water flow. Yes. Frank wrote: > Your designs manufactured by QCC are often pictured with rudders. I'm > curious - do you design them to use rudders because that's what the > buyers want, or do the manufacturers decide to add them to the boats > regardless of your design, or are there other reasons? (Not trying to > give you a hard time, I just wonder why the boats we buy often have > rudders when the designer paddles without one.) Not all paddlers share my interests or preferences. Some boats I design for rudders, some not. I don't expect people to share my preferences. Truth is, I don't much care what people use anymore so long as they have fun. I also do this as a living. I design rowboats, powerboats, and sailboats. I have owned some in the past but don't own any of them now and probably never will again but some of my customers like my designs in spite of myself. If I designed only to suit myself I doubt if I would make much money. :-) Matt wrote: > First, just what is Gilmer's formula? See above. Not really Gilmer's formula as in "Gilmer invented it" but as in "I found it in Gilmer's book". > "no heel relative to the water" Does this assume flat water or does it > matter at all to the results? I assumed normal to the water flow. It does make a difference as angles reduce the drag similar to paddles in drag mode. (SNIP re: Matt's experiences) I cannot comment on Matt's experiences because, as I said, I could not duplicate them. > However, I think the main reason you got such a low number for the heeling > force due to the rudder using Gilmer's formula was because it looks to me > like you have made the rudder blade no deeper than the bottom of the hull in > your assumptions (if I'm understanding what he means by the location of the > centroid being only 1/2 the draft correctly). A misunderstanding. I assumed the centroid of the rudder to lie half the draft of the rudder. Actually it would lie higher since the rudder had some taper and shaping at the bottom but I wasn't much concerned about precision. I also assumed the centroid of the lateral area to lie at half the draft of the hull. It would also probably lie higher. I did not feel like actually calculating the center of lateral resistance. Seemed close enough for this kind of thing. >That would mean that the > tipping force due to the rudder would be at essentially the same depth as > the tipping force due to the 250 pound hull moving sideways through the > water. Maybe, maybe not. Have you calculated the moment arm of a hull? Seems like a lot of work and it may vary considerably between boats. I think we have to keep in mind that all of this applies only if the boat really does experience this "high speed" sideways surfing. (SNIP) > tipping moment caused by the rudder at the same time you are compensating > for the tipping moment due to hull friction and hull shape. It's only the > sudden reintroduction of the rudder into the water that I've found > potentially upsetting. I hear what you say but just could not sense it. Maybe I need a course on broaching. %-} I did not encounter anyone else who had experienced this sudden heeling force but what can you expect from a bunch of stupid easterners? One had the audacity to suggest that, if I thought it was a big deal I could reach down and pull on that little cord there and raise the rudder. These easterners just don't understand the purity of the whole thing. Nick wrote: (SNIP) > I would expect the tipping force would be the same as the turning > force with the the difference in torque being the different moment > arm (horizontal distance vs vertical distance). At similar angles, yes. I suppose we would have to correct for lift as well so maybe a little less force. All very interesting and I apologise for my errors in calculation. Hope that did not lead anyone to rush right out an buy a rudder.:-) Cheers, John Winters *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Fri Sep 7 10:02:40 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA24171 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24166 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01602 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:01:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from valiant.cnchost.com (valiant.concentric.net [207.155.252.9]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f87H1qq25360 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:01:52 -0700 Received: from syllog.com (w138.z064220028.nyc-ny.dsl.cnc.net [64.220.28.138]) by valiant.cnchost.com id NAA09782; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:01:47 -0400 (EDT) [ConcentricHost SMTP Relay 1.14] Message-ID: <3B98FE87.1FAF874B_at_syllog.com> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 13:06:15 -0400 From: Tim Gamble <tgamble_at_syllog.com> Organization: Syllog Inc. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (Win95; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: [Paddlewise] Paddling Demonstration in NYC Harbor 9/16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net All, The Flotilla to Reclaim Governors Island will take place on Sunday 9/16. This is a political demonstration to show the government that there is local support for turning over Governors island in New York Harbor to the local communities for public use. see http://www.reclaimgovernorsisland.org/ We will be running our morning trip from the downtown boathouse to this event. It will replace our normal morning trip. We have some boats available, but they will be allocated on a lottery basis. We have arranged to get a ride back from a ship, since the currents will be against us on the Return trip. All kayakers with their own boats who want to participate are welcome to come along with us. There will be a LOT of big motorboats at this event, and it should be very crowded. It will be a lot easier for the organizers if all the kayakers stick together, or join-up in large groups. Anyone with their own boat who wants to come along with the boathouse contingent is welcome but you must agree to: -Follow our instructions and stick with our leaders. -Be at the Downtown boathouse with your boat ready to get on the water by 9:00 AM. -Sign a boathouse waiver, have a PFD and a paddle. See www.downtownboathouse.org for directions to the boathouse, we will be leaving from the downtown location at pier 26. For the return trip you can have a free lift on a motorboat, or tough-out the current and paddle back. You can also separate from our group and tool around Brooklyn to wait for the tide to turn. If you have specific questions or needs contact me by email (tgamble_200_at_yahoo.com). I will post other updates to this list a few days before the event. Tim Gamble tgamble_2000_at_yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Fri Sep 7 10:11:51 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id KAA25073 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:11:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA25068 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:11:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07383 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f87HBWq25390 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:11:32 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id KAA22461 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2001 10:12:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Jackie Fenton <jackie_at_intelenet.net> Message-Id: <200109071712.KAA22461_at_qajaq.muddypuppies.com> To: paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Subject: [Paddlewise] mail problems X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Hi Folks, We are in the process of changing mail setup for PaddleWise and are experiencing some problems. If you have had difficulty getting a message through to PaddleWise, please let me know via private email. Apologies for any inconvenience. Jackie list-owner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Fri Sep 7 12:33:38 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id MAA08505 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:33:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA08500 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:33:11 -0700 (PDT) From: elias.ross_at_openwave.com Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11101 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:33:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oe-mp1.bizmailsrvcs.net (oe-mp1pub.managedmail.com [206.46.164.22]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f87JX9q25744 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 12:33:09 -0700 Received: from oe-ismta1.bizmailsrvcs.net ([206.46.164.26]) by oe-mp1.bizmailsrvcs.net (InterMail vM.5.01.03.08 201-253-122-118-108-20010628) with ESMTP id <20010907193100.BQDO3574.oe-mp1.bizmailsrvcs.net_at_oe-ismta1.bizmailsrvc s.net> for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:31:00 -0500 Received: from openwave.com ([64.14.128.39]) by oe-ismta1.bizmailsrvcs.net (InterMail vM.5.01.03.08 201-253-122-118-108-20010628) with ESMTP id <20010907193254.NGUZ869.oe-ismta1.bizmailsrvcs.net_at_openwave.com> for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 14:32:54 -0500 Message-ID: <3B9920E3.5588650F_at_openwave.com> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 15:32:51 -0400 Organization: Openwave X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.4.3-20mdk i686) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] San Juan Islands DNR closures References: <LPBBIFJPIBOCGNKKPCCEKEMDCGAA.mkayaks_at_oz.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net Matt Broze wrote: > > Before Washington Water trails came along and identified all the existing > camping possibilities for kayakers and then advertised them all around the > country as the Cascadia Marine Trail these DNR sites were relatively unknown > and were not being overused. It's the same with hiking in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness. My friends and I no longer go there during the summer months. You have to 'beat the rush' and reserve months in advance, and hope that your summer plans don't change or it rains that weekend. We also don't like having to pay per day per person, it works out to quite a lot of money if you're going to be with a few other friends. It may be cheaper paying their standard fine ($100) than paying for a week of camping with three others ($140). Most Alpine Lakes campsites are also overly crowded in general, and full of people who often don't have a lot of respect for the outdoors. People who have been hiking in the (North) Cascades for many, many years are claiming the huge popularity has ruined a lot of their enjoyment. I've heard old-timers blame the growth of the outdoor industry (REI), and the easy availability of hiking guides, for the recent creation of many more regulations, permits, and (over-)management. They also hate how clubs like the Mountaineers enjoy special privilages (it would seem) of taking a large group of newbies into their favorite spots. Demand for certain places has created shortages, which in turn seems to create even more demand. The popular places are now either heavily regulated (AWL) or crowded and unpleasant. > It seems pretty ludicrous that an agency that can't afford to maintain a > site will have no trouble footing the surely much larger bill to remove all > the existing facilities. I wonder what it would cost to fix the leak rather > than replace the toilet with one of the $60,000 ones. I wonder if kayak store owners (who often run tours and classes) will speak out against the closures. It doesn't seem like in the interest of the people of the San Juan Islands (who are often reclusive rich folk) to offer campsites to kayakers, who offer them no economic benefit. Maybe ten years from now, we'll have to join REI guided tours, which will be taxed by the local goverment, to be able to camp there. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Fri Sep 7 13:17:09 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA12708 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA12703 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07811 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from asteroid.pacifier.com ([199.2.117.154]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f87KGmq25791 Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:16:48 -0700 Received: from pacifier.com (ip75.ast3.pacifier.com [66.43.9.75]) by asteroid.pacifier.com (8.11.2/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f87KG9M18779; Fri, 7 Sep 2001 13:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3B992B07.B31250AC_at_pacifier.com> Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2001 13:16:07 -0700 From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] San Juan Islands DNR closures References: <LPBBIFJPIBOCGNKKPCCEKEMDCGAA.mkayaks_at_oz.net> <3B9920E3.5588650F_at_openwave.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net First Matt Broze wrote: > > Before Washington Water trails came along and identified all the existing > > camping possibilities for kayakers and then advertised them all around the > > country as the Cascadia Marine Trail these DNR sites were relatively unknown > > and were not being overused. And then elias.ross_at_openwave.com responded: > It's the same with hiking in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness (ALW). My friends > and I no longer go there during the summer months. [snip] > Most Alpine Lakes campsites are also overly crowded in general, and full > of people who often don't have a lot of respect for the outdoors. > People who have been hiking in the (North) Cascades for many, many years > are claiming the huge popularity has ruined a lot of their enjoyment. > I've heard old-timers blame the growth of the outdoor industry (REI), > and the easy availability of hiking guides, for the recent creation of > many more regulations, permits, and (over-)management. [snip] Matt Broze again: > > It seems pretty ludicrous that an agency that can't afford to maintain a > > site will have no trouble footing the surely much larger bill to remove all > > the existing facilities. I wonder what it would cost to fix the leak rather > > than replace the toilet with one of the $60,000 ones. And now elias.ross_at_openwave.com again: > I wonder if kayak store owners (who often run tours and classes) will > speak out against the closures. It doesn't seem in the interest of > the people of the San Juan Islands (who are often reclusive rich folk) > to offer campsites to kayakers, who offer them no economic benefit. > Maybe ten years from now, we'll have to join REI guided tours, which > will be taxed by the local goverment, to be able to camp there. I was standing next to Ed Cooper a crisp fall day in 1969 when he took the now-famous photo of Prussik Peak in the Enchantments (ALW). The photo was selected for the cover shot for "102 Hikes," one of the first hiking guides to the area. The photo and the guide were widely regarded as the set pieces which "created" the ALW and saved it from logging. IIRC, the dominant thinking back then was that the Seattle Mountaineers (and other conservation groups) made a calculated move to "sacrifice" the Enchantments to help marshal the public support to prevent much of the ALW from logging. My feelings were mixed then and they are just as mixed now. I am in the same age bracket as Ross and Matt, so I lived through all that stuff. What's this got to do with the San Juans and campsites there? Well, anybody who has traveled to one of the several launch sites on the West Coast of Vancouver Island can see what ALW might have looked like if the Mountaineers et al had NOT "saved it." Massive industrial logging on a scale the Cascades could never support. And, in the long run, neither can Vancouver Island. That the San Juans have not been decimated by logging, but instead by upscale development at the altar of second homes for the well-off, is the irony of living in a wealthy nation. I suspect we will have to come to terms with the "multiple use" of areas like the San Juans and adopt principles of stewardship akin to what I saw in coastal Maine. I've described here recently how MITA handles yak use of popular islands. And, man, it IS crowded back there, but it is much better managed than in the San Juans. The crowding (here or there) is due mainly to "too many of us" more than any mis-deeds of the recreational industry -- to identify a retailer such as REI as the "cause" of our problems is to ignore the enormous market forces which control the REI's of our market-driven economy. In the same way, it is more population pressure than the WA Water Trails group that is responsible for what has occurred in the San Juans, though I agree with Matt their stewardship of the CMT is less than ideal. We West Coasters could climb off our high horses and learn a few things from our East Coast brethern and sistern. If the Washington Water Trails Association were as moxie and savvy as MITA, I suspect the current campsite crisis in the San Juans would have never occurred. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Sat Sep 8 11:46:12 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id LAA28715 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA28710 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:44:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA15852 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:44:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bemnet.pair.com (bemnet.pair.com [209.68.2.3]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with SMTP id f88IiSq28502 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 11:44:28 -0700 Received: (qmail 9018 invoked by uid 3027); 8 Sep 2001 18:44:26 -0000 Received: from localhost (sendmail-bs_at_127.0.0.1) by localhost with SMTP; 8 Sep 2001 18:44:26 -0000 Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:44:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Andree Hurley <ahurley_at_viewit.com> X-Sender: <ahurley_at_bemnet.pair.com> To: Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium In-Reply-To: <3B992B07.B31250AC_at_pacifier.com> Message-ID: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0109081442340.7464-100000_at_bemnet.pair.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net The website, http://www.gopaddle.org now has a list of speakers on it for the upcoming symposium this next weekend. Any Paddlewisers going to be there? If so, maybe we can arrange a meeting spot.... Andree Hurley Kayak Instruction Excellence - http://www.onwatersports.com/KIX/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Sat Sep 8 13:22:35 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA07857 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA07852 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA15598 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:22:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from qajaq.muddypuppies.com (jackie_at_h-64-105-135-2.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.2]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f88KM8q28630 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:22:08 -0700 Received: (from jackie_at_localhost) by qajaq.muddypuppies.com (8.8.7/8.8.7) id NAA23174 for paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:23:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA05657 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:58:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA29308 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:58:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zeus.tassie.net.au (zeus.tassie.net.au [203.57.213.21]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f88Jwbq28581 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 12:58:37 -0700 Received: from 350mhz (dialin38.hbt.utas.tassie.net.au [203.57.208.38]) by zeus.tassie.net.au (8.8.8/8.8.8) with SMTP id FAA22504 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sun, 9 Sep 2001 05:58:18 +1000 (EST) From: "Andreas Hack" <andreas_at_ahack.org> To: <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Subject: [Paddlewise] Rolling the Feathercraft K1 (also folding boat speed) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2001 05:57:57 +1000 Message-ID: <NDBBLPEDCLFBENBIHHBOMENBCBAA.andreas_at_ahack.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2911.0) Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net I've got a sealskin K1. Am fairly new to sea kayaking, but have significant experience as coastal yachtsman (mainly solo) & as whitewater rafting guide. Haven't even thought about rolling the K1 myself yet, still sorting out more basic stuff. I'm living in Tasmania, which is an island state south of the mainland of Australia. The coastline is spectacular. Tassie is ~30% National Parks. It lies smack bang in the 'roaring 40s', which is to say that when its windy, it is windy. Deaths on the water (fishermen, yachtsmen, no kayakers so far - at least not sea kayakers) are a regular occurrence. Sea kayaking has a long 'recent' history in Tas. Many sea kayakers, until the recent rush of new converts, have built their own kayaks, mainly in fibreglass and mainly based on a local design which is an adaptation of the Greenlander concept (~19'?). Most of these 'older-style' kayakers have 1 or 2 sails fitted to their boats, I've heard some of them say that you haven't lived until you've surfed your kayak with 2 sails up in winds of 40 Knots+ (1 Knot ~= 1.854 km per hour). If you're interested in some good pics & some pretty amazing stories, have a look at http://www.vision.net.au/~jennings/ and http://www.tassie.net.au/~lford [most of it should be true ;-) ]. On my few trips with some of these guys I haven't met any other folding boats yet. A small commercial operator ('Roaring 40's Ocean Kayaking') runs several K1s & K2s, I've bought my own K1 from them but haven't met them on the water yet. So ... back to the subject. 2 of the above mentioned kayakers have tried rolling my K1 (no knee braces). 1 of them succeeded after a 1st failed attempt and rolled 2 or 3 times. The other one failed several attempts and despite the fact that he was freezing cold, blue in the face etc. just had to get back into his own boat and do several rolls to make sure that it wasn't him. Both thought it was hard work with the K1. Also, speed-wise, I reckon that those guys paddle on average 50% faster than me. I'm currently averaging 7 km/h or 3.8 knots with pushing myself a little but not too hard. I hope that some of that difference is due to paddling skill & strength (which I can work on), but presume that a fair part of the difference is also due to the characteristics of the K1 (folder, beam, length)?! ---------------------------------------------- Andreas Hack Hobart, Tasmania, Australia ---------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Sat Sep 8 13:42:14 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id NAA09772 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA09767 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:42:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27718 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spok.premier1.net (spok.premier1.net [64.38.159.38]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f88Kg1q28678 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:42:01 -0700 Received: from [208.12.31.56] (host-31-56.dsl-sea.seanet.com [208.12.31.56]) by spok.premier1.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA16135; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 13:41:50 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 13:51:44 -0700 Subject: [Paddlewise] West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium, meeting place From: Rex Roberton <rexrob_at_mac.com> To: Andree Hurley <ahurley_at_viewit.com>, Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Message-ID: <B7BFD2F0.18A8%rexrob_at_mac.com> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0109081442340.7464-100000_at_bemnet.pair.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net >West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium >Any Paddlewisers going to be there? If so, maybe we can arrange a meeting >spot.... Andree, Are they doing the traditional beer and dance at the Hanger after the Saturday evening presentation? This is always a good time for socializing. I guess we would have to tape up a "Paddlewise" sign somewhere inside. Just one possibility. Rex *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Sat Sep 8 14:10:08 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA12302 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:09:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12293 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11907 for <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net>; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:09:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from spok.premier1.net (spok.premier1.net [64.38.159.38]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f88L9pq28707 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:09:51 -0700 Received: from [208.12.31.56] (host-31-56.dsl-sea.seanet.com [208.12.31.56]) by spok.premier1.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA18039; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:09:49 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 5.01 (1630) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2001 14:19:44 -0700 Subject: [Paddlewise] West Coast Sea Kayak Symposium, speakers From: Rex Roberton <rexrob_at_mac.com> To: Andree Hurley <ahurley_at_viewit.com>, Paddlewise <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> Message-ID: <B7BFD97F.18A9%rexrob_at_mac.com> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.30.0109081442340.7464-100000_at_bemnet.pair.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net >The website, http://www.gopaddle.org now has a list of speakers on it for >the upcoming symposium this next weekend. Andree, The site list the speakers and the day they will be presenting but not the actual time of the presentation. Do you know if the times will be posted later in the week? I'm teaching my all-time favorite class - "Troubleshooting the Eskimo Roll" using underwater video. If anyone is having dificulties with their roll this is the class for you. We will be able to diagnose the problems using video and a nifty troubleshooting diagram. Here is a description of the two-part class: ------------ Troubleshooting the Eskimo Roll (Two-Part Class) When a roll is weak or fails, it can be difficult to figure out what went wrong. Video is the most powerful method there is for making a accurate analysis of the Eskimo roll. We'll use a digital video camera in a underwater housing to record above and below water action. In addition to the video, we will learn a troubleshooting system that will allow you to quickly identify the technique error. The handout for this class is a troubleshooting diagram with 26 common mistakes and a method to get right to the source of the problem. This class is for anyone interested in rolling, beginners to experts. Instructors will definitely find it very useful also. Read the Part-One description for qualifications for the five in-the-water students. Troubleshooting the Eskimo Roll, Part One Beach demo and instruction. Watch from shore, no sign-up and no limit on number of observers, plus: In-the-water instruction for five students. These five students must be people who have already started learning to roll but are having difficulties or maybe your on-side roll is good but now you are trying to learn the off-side roll. You must sign up in advance in the registration office. Sign-up sheet will be taped on the wall and will be posted Friday morning. You must provide your own boat and equipment, including a dry-suit or wet-suit. We'll shoot video which will be viewed (frame by frame, stop motion) the next day in the indoor class (Part Two). Troubleshooting the Eskimo Roll, Part Two Learn how to use the troubleshooting diagram with 26 common mistakes and a method to quickly identify technique errors. Anyone is welcome and it does not matter if you attended Part One. We'll view video of the five students in the "Part One" class from the previous day. The video shows the complete roll, or roll attempt, including above the water and below the water action. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ *************************************************************************** >From owner-paddlewise Sat Sep 8 14:34:52 2001 Received: (from majordom_at_localhost) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA14557 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns.intelenet.net (mailhost.intelenet.net [207.38.45.138]) by ns1.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA14552 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cyclone.muddypuppies.com (root_at_h-64-105-135-5.lsancaba.covad.net [64.105.135.5]) by ns.intelenet.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29251 for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:34:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com [24.0.95.81]) by cyclone.muddypuppies.com (8.11.4/8.11.4) with ESMTP id f88LYbq28760 Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:34:37 -0700 Received: from meatball ([24.112.191.196]) by femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.20 201-229-121-120-20010223) with SMTP id <20010908213425.EHMR506.femail1.sdc1.sfba.home.com_at_meatball> for <PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net>; Sat, 8 Sep 2001 14:34:25 -0700 Message-ID: <000f01c138ae$c7d84930$c4bf7018_at_meatball> From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_home.com> To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> References: <NDBBLPEDCLFBENBIHHBOMENBCBAA.andreas_at_ahack.org> Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rolling the Feathercraft K1 (also folding boat speed) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2001 17:39:46 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 Sender: owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net Precedence: list X-Listname: Paddlewise Mailing List X-Subscription-Info: paddlewise-request_at_paddlewise.net From: "Andreas Hack" <andreas_at_ahack.org> > I've got a sealskin K1. cool > Also, speed-wise, I reckon that those guys paddle on average 50% faster than > me. I'm currently averaging 7 km/h or 3.8 knots with pushing myself a little > but not too hard. Over what time frame? That's roughly my speed in either of my two composite kayaks over a measured distance for about an hour. Differs by maybe 15% depending on wind, sea and how I feel. Don't consider speed a measure of skill. Speed is a measure of speed and is meaningless in any other context. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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