All this talk of ballast and sponsoons... all may do as designed, but the product mounted on a boat would not end up being what to me is a kayak... Apparrent simplicity...and beauty is in the simplicity of design, and therefore much more interesting to operate, and less likely to malfunction. Michael Orchard > > Instead of working off the theory of increasing the beam to improve stability this would > > add "ballast" to each side of the hull. > > Neat idea. > > Along those lines, why not a deployable weighted keel? Get a long, light > tube along the keel (perhaps inside a channel which would have the side > effect of stiffening the hull longitudinally) that is hinged at one end and > with a heavy, compact weight at the other (depleted uranium, anyone?). > The weight and tube could be teardrop shaped for minimum drag > when deployed. If the weight is blade-like, it would provide dynamic > damping to rolling moments as well. > > When the paddler is in the water, s/he releases the tube, which swings > down and locks into place. Leaving it down would provide stability > after re-entry. If the lock yields a bit, it would handle impact, like > rudder blades and skeg. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Michael Orchard" <mspadorchard_at_attbi.com> > All this talk of ballast and sponsoons... all may do as designed, but the > product mounted on a boat would not end up being what to me is a kayak... > > Apparrent simplicity...and beauty is in the simplicity of design, and > therefore much more interesting to operate, and less likely to malfunction. All true, but it leaves many paddlers with no options if they end up in the water. Since rolls and such are limited to the minority, stabilization aids are necessary for the others. Paddling only in groups with knowledge and practice in assisted rescues would suffice, it doesn't address the paddler that gets separated from the group or those who like a solo paddle. I find sponsons interesting, but would never use them myself. I know that I can roll or rely on a paddlefloat (in my hand if not on a paddle). Nonetheless, they are an option for others. I think the exercise suggested by Nick of optimizing the sponson is a good one and if better sponsons result, someone will benefit. The trick is getting someone to take the ideas and run with them. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: Michael Daly Sent: Domingo, 30 de Diciembre de 2001 07:32 a.m. To: Paddlewise Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Ballast and sponsoons...where is the kayak? From: "Michael Orchard" <mspadorchard_at_attbi.com> > All this talk of ballast and sponsoons... all may do as designed, but the > product mounted on a boat would not end up being what to me is a kayak... > > Apparrent simplicity...and beauty is in the simplicity of design, and > therefore much more interesting to operate, and less likely to malfunction. All true, but it leaves many paddlers with no options if they end up in the water. Since rolls and such are limited to the minority, stabilization aids are necessary for the others.... (snip) ---------------------------------------------------------- Hi paddlewisers, it's been a while since I last posted but I've been reading all the posts though. So here I am motivated once more by this old thread .... Michael Daly says a kayak with sponsons is not a kayak ... and he is right. Michael Orchad says the majority of paddlers don't know how to roll and he is probably right too. But considering sponsons and paddle floats as true alternatives to the roll is in my opinion a grate mistake. Rolling is not that hard to learn and doesn't require any special ability neither physical shape. Everybody can and should learn to roll, because roll is to kayaking as important as the forward stroke. Actually, rolling can be learned before the rest of the techniques, making the whole learning process faster and easier. Students feel more safe when leaning the kayak knowing if hey can capsize they can always roll back up. I have taught this way for years with grate success. With the same money you will spend in sponsons and paddle floats you may pay an instructor. The rest is only practice and patience, and it will come. It doesn't matter how you are. Sponsons and paddle floats can be considered as secondary alternatives for emergency use when roll and reentry and roll have failed. You don't put sponson like artifacts to a horse to avoid falling when you ride it, you just learn how to ride it so you are not afraid any more. Learning all the techniques is the wiser way to think about safety, and this starts and includes rolling. I would like to know the opinion of Andree Hurley and all the other ACA and BCU instructors and students of the list think about this. Best regards to all of you and have a happy new year !!! Fernando Lopez Arbarello Kayak Argentina - Sea Kayaking Mailing List www.geocities.com/kayak_argentina mailto:kayak_argentina_at_yahoo.com PS.: wow ! ... a horse with sponsons .... I might have gone tooooooooo far this time ..... I only hope Mr.Sponsonman is not lurking out there. I don't want to have all the "cowboys" coming after me .... :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Fernando Lopez Arbarello" <kayak_argentina_at_yahoo.com> > > Michael Daly says a kayak with sponsons is not a kayak ... and he is right. > > Michael Orchad says the majority of paddlers don't know how to roll and he > is probably right too. Other way around... > But considering sponsons and paddle floats as true alternatives to the roll > is in my opinion a grate mistake. Rolling is not that hard to learn and > doesn't require any special ability neither physical shape. Well, I wish I could agree with you but I can't. For some folks, rolling is hard to learn. Having taught lots of skiers and several kayakers, I can tell you that _most_ adults don't have the essential observation skills, motor skills, coordination etc. to develop some athletic tasks to a competent level (meaning: able to do the thing over and over correctly). You can demonstrate till you're blue in the face, manually force their arms and legs into the right position, work through the motions over and over and they just don't get it. (Hey, I'm that way with music!) If they're good athletes in youth, they tend to learn well as adults. Otherwise they are and remain marginally skilled at some tasks. That won't stop them from paddling and enjoying it. But a more difficult task like rolling is beyond them. Consider a current thread on Paddlewise where folks are commenting on how changing the knee position affects their roll. I consider a competent level of rolling skill to mean that you can get into almost any kayak and roll it (we'll ignore the ultrawide or oddball kayaks). I've rolled kayaks without even setting the footpegs in position (i.e. feet free and not braced). I hate to sound nasty, but if a small change in your kayak affects your roll, you need to develop the skill more. You should be prepared for accidental changes (I practice odd scenarios in the pool). Hence, even those trained in rolling need a backup. There's no such thing as a bombproof roll either. Some folks have extremely good rolling skills, but there will come a time when they're out of the boat. They need a backup too. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This time I see that I may have made an incomplete apretiation, Mike. And the cause might be we based our analysis in different environments. All my experience is based in Argentina, where kayaking is not as spread as in the USA and where almost everyone who aproaches the sport has some sportive background, at least when young. But I realize here in the States things are probably different. I spent some time with a local outfitter here in Maui, and I was surprised that many customers adentured into the sea paddling sot's without any ability or knowledge, and some were above 60 yo. I have succeded 100% of times teaching roll, to men and women of different ages. Even a fat 60 years old businesman who never practiced sports since his school times but found the idea of kayaking relaxing. It took him only 2 days. I am not a certified instructor neither surely have I all the necessary teaching skills to qualify. This is why I say that if I could do it, then any certified instructor surely can, but as the amount of people aproaching the sport in argentina is much less than in the USA my conclusions are surely limited too. So lets keep rethinking sponsons and we might find a way to fit them properly in a horse .... ;) Fernando Lopez Arbarello Kayak Argentina - Sea Kayaking Mailing List www.geocities.com/kayak_argentina mailto:kayak_argentina_at_yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Since I have never seen a horse capsize while not wearing sponsons, I have to conclude that sponsons are not necessary to keep a kayak upright. (Said after getting trounced by a wave on a launch from a very steep beach this morning and then going for a swim in the surf ;-) ) Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Fernando Lopez Arbarello" <kayak_argentina_at_yahoo.com> > This time I see that I may have made an incomplete apretiation, Mike. And > the cause might be we based our analysis in different environments. > > All my experience is based in Argentina, where kayaking is not as spread as > in the USA and where almost everyone who aproaches the sport has some > sportive background, at least when young. That's a key point. Sports that are relatively new to an area tend to first attract the athletic who are predisposed to learning physical tasks. Later, as the popularity grows, the less skilled try to find some adventure through the sport and then we see a wider variation in skills and ability to aquire new skills. > I have succeded 100% of times teaching roll, to men and women of different > ages. Even a fat 60 years old businesman who never practiced sports since > his school times but found the idea of kayaking relaxing. It took him only 2 > days. Teaching an initial roll and having the same student become adept at that roll (and its offside version) under "combat" conditions are two different things. You start them, but it's up to them to advance beyond that. I've seen a lot of examples where advancement is slow to nonexistant once the initial roll is learned. Keep teaching and I hope you enjoy success. Encourage the student to continue advancing in roll skills as well. It will make them a better paddler. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 12/30/2001 6:36:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, michaeldaly_at_rogers.com writes: << Otherwise they are and remain marginally skilled at some tasks. That won't stop them from paddling and enjoying it. But a more difficult task like rolling is beyond them. >> Well, as they say....if the cap fits..... sandy kramer wearing her marginally fitting cap :) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <Gypsykayak_at_aol.com> > In a message dated 12/30/2001 6:36:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, > michaeldaly_at_rogers.com writes: > > << Otherwise they are and remain marginally skilled at some tasks. That > won't stop them from paddling and enjoying it. But a more difficult task > like rolling > is beyond them. >> > > Well, as they say....if the cap fits..... > > sandy kramer wearing her marginally fitting cap :) Keep paddling and enjoying. While the roll is fun and useful, it isn't essential. You don't have to be Tiger Woods to play golf. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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