Chuck wrote: "My Seal Line chart case has never leaked, not even during rolls." I must be harder on gear than you, Chuck. I have a Seal Line chart case which has stretched at the short sides, a small tear has opened, and the zip no longer seals. Anyone using the Seal Line chart cases should add a non-stretch piece of cord or tape to prevent the chart case stretching and distorting. This is noted in David Burch's book on kayak navigation. Why the manufacturer doesn't do this, I don't know. Now I laminate or seal each chart or map and put it inside the chart case, and live with the water infiltration. I'm keeping an eye out for a better means of keeping a chart on deck. One idea is to fix a laminated chart to the deck with duct tape, which addresses the problem of surf clearing the deck of everything. I've wondered about using the spray deck for charts, but I don't want anything to interfere with a wet exit. Peter Treby, Melbourne, Australia. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
we have used a number of Sealines, Ortliebs, Mariner and Voyagers in our program. The Sealine/ziplock is the worst of this group. It only takes a slip of the zipper to blow out the seam at the ends of the zipper. i haven't had the stretch problem you have pete. The Mariners are OK, tho if you don't get the velcro just right, they leak. The ortlieb is the same but a little easier to get lined up. The new Voyager seems to be the easiest to use, good velcro and heavy duty vinyl too. my 2 centavos worth. steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One great solution, albeit one that only works in popular areas, is to buy those funny tourist "chart placemats". You know, those laminated things you put your plates on. I've paddled in a few areas where various versions were sold all over the place and they make great deck maps. I have no idea why they are so popular with tourists and I've yet to eat off one. Oh wait, I take that back, my friend David has his table decorated with 'mats we've garnered from various trips. Sure they say "DANGER!!! NOT TO BE USED FOR NAVIGATION", but what do they know. I usually do all my wayfinding beforehand on a real chart (in a Seal Line case actually) and make notes on the placemat. Besides, there is something fun about relying on kitchenware for survival. -Patrick At Thursday, 31 January 2002, "Peter Treby" <ptreby_at_ozemail.com.au> wrote: [SNIP] >I've wondered about using the spray deck for charts, but I don't want >anything to interfere with a wet exit. [SNIP] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Pat, I keep one of those super small scale chart/placemats in my chart library when cruising the San Juan islands as a big picture reference. Many of the charts we use are either 1:25,000 or 1:80,000. I figured out the placemat was about 1:450,000 and is a copy of the NOAA 1:250,000. You know most any reproduction of a chart is going to say *Danger-NOT to be used for Navigation* as they are not the most recent, up to date, issue of the chart. Many of the waterproof versions are also labled the same. Hey for kayaking Nav reference at the 1:450,000 scale?? Does this mean I break the law every time I use my placemat for navigation! =:-o) steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Patrick Maun said: > One great solution, albeit one that only works in popular areas, > is to buy those funny tourist "chart placemats". You know, those > laminated things you put your plates on. [snip] This is a variation of what I've done the past five years or so. I cut up my charts into chunks (usually 11 inches by 17 inches) that will fit under the bungies on deck, and laminate them with heavy duty plastic, leaving a good margin of overlapped plastic past the paper boundaries (2 cm is enough) and round the corners. These go directly on deck, and are always available for reference. They don't wash off in ordinary seas. In rough water, they do. If I anticipate very rough water, I roll up the laminate and stuff it under deck. That has never been a problem for me, inasmuch as pulling ranges and bearings off a chart in very rough water is impossible. If I need to remember a range or heading for a gnarly stretch, I write it down on the deck with grease pencil. Although this reduces the bulk of a trad. chart case and protects the charts well (my most-used one dies after a couple years of hard use, so I re-do it periodically), there are some disadvantages: 1. Don't get the "whole view" offered by the complete chart. This can be offset by taking along a photo-reduced laminate of the entrie chart. 2. Your charts are cut up, and that violates some deep maritime imperative. Sometimes I make color copies (NOAA charts are OK for this, CHS charts are not) and laminate the copies. 3. Sometimes the laminates (which are adhered to the deck by wetness) get washed overboard. One instance in 5 years for me. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: > > I cut up my > charts into chunks (usually 11 inches by 17 inches) that will fit under the > bungies on deck, and laminate them with heavy duty plastic,... > ... there are some disadvantages: > > 1. Don't get the "whole view" offered by the complete chart. This can be > offset by taking along a photo-reduced laminate of the entrie chart. When I've tried this, I invariably find myself paddling the crack between two chunks. Wiser planning would prevent this. It's also handy to try to capture or migrate a compass rose onto each chunk. -- Steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:14 PM 1/31/02 -0500, Steve Cramer wrote: >> 1. Don't get the "whole view" offered by the complete chart. This can be >> offset by taking along a photo-reduced laminate of the entrie chart. > >When I've tried this, I invariably find myself paddling the crack >between two chunks. Wiser planning would prevent this. That's nothing new. I think it was the British general William Slim that commented, "The British Army has fought many battles in many conditions in many parts of the world, but two things remain constant: it's always uphill, and always at the junction of two or more map sections." -- Wes --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Wes Boyd's Kayak Place http://www2.dmci.net/wesboyd/kayak.htm Kayaks for Big Guys (And Gals) | Trip Reports | Places To Go | Boats & Gear --------------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Check out the latest Canoe & Kayak magazine for a great article on Paddling in Portland (Oregon). The dude in the kevlar Arctic hawk with the GL paddle is ME! Thanks to my buddy Joel Rogers for the pic! Ahhhh summertime and the livin' is easy! steve aldercreek.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve wrote: <SNIP>>>>>>The Mariners are OK, tho if you don't get the velcro just right, they leak. The ortlieb is the same but a little easier to get lined up. The new Voyager seems to be the easiest to use, good velcro and heavy duty vinyl too. my 2 centavos worth.<<<<<<<< Steve, the Mariner chart case you are writing about has to be at least three years old. The latest chart cases we made had a heavy duty black urethane zip lock style of closure. Because we can't find any further supply of that heavy duty urethane zip-lock (to bond the to clear urethane fabric we used it has to also be urethane) we haven't sold chart cases at all for well over a year now. I've still got plenty of the clear urethane material so if anybody knows of a source of the heavy duty urethane zip-lock please let me know. The urethane fabric was so much stronger than the vinyl or polyethylene fabrics that it could be much more lightweight and flexible and still not tear. The vinyl (like we first used maybe twelve to fifteen years ago) tore easily at the seams and even though we quickly went to the very husky 20 mil vinyl thickness and reinforced the opening they could still sometimes tear along the seams and got very stiff in cold weather (which aggravated the tearing problem). Also, Xerox copies printed off onto the vinyl but not on the more expensive urethane fabric. Vinyl seams were especially vulnerable at the opening so we had to go to great lengths to reinforce the early vinyl chart cases at the open edges or it could tear easily at the seams there (a fact that the vinyl radio/cellphone/GPS case makers I've seen have just seemed to ignore). The seem tearing problem went completely away when we switched to the much tougher urethane fabric. Perhaps Steve is still using an older urethane mariner chart case with one of the several generations of Velcro fastened (roll down) seals. The urethane cases did last a long time. The earliest urethane ones (with Velcro glued on) ones would yellow some with age and exposure to lots of sunlight but they remained clear and still easy to read a chart through. At least we could glue the Velcro to that urethane material. The later more flexible non-yellowing urethane we were able to find could not glued well to the Velcro so we had to sew the Velcro to some more urethane and then heat bond that urethane to the main body of urethane chart case (so they became more expensive). The black urethane zip-lock in the last generation could be a chore to close but sand and grit wouldn't make it fail like it does to most zip-locks (nor did it break at the ends of the zip-lock like most zip in chart cases eventually tend to do). Chart cases have been by far the biggest "problem product" of any product we have ever made. I still haven't seen any others being made that I'm willing to recommend and sell in our store (and with the nightmares involved with making our own I can assure you I'd rather sell ones that somebody else took care of the production headaches on). Again, if anyone happens to know of a source of heavy duty urethane zip-lock let me know--I think the urethane zip-lock we had found a limited supply of was made in Germany). It is frustrating when you know that something exists but even with hour and hours on the internet looking you can't find the source. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt, About the chart case. Could you eliminate the seal altogether by designing the chart case like a good dry bag and simply repeat fold the open edge over and then snap close it with a fitting like on a dry bag? Could it be designed/tailored/cut so the folded seal would then lie flat so the chart could be easily used and stored? Jim et al ----- Original Message ----- Because we can't find any further supply of that > heavy duty urethane zip-lock (to bond the to clear urethane fabric we used > it has to also be urethane) we haven't sold chart cases at all for well over > a year now. > Matt Broze > http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt writes: > Perhaps Steve is still using an older urethane mariner chart case with one > of the several generations of Velcro fastened (roll down) seals. The > urethane cases did last a long time. The earliest urethane ones (with Velcro > glued on) ones would yellow some with age and exposure to lots of sunlight > but they remained clear and still easy to read a chart through. Yes, the chart cases I have (4) from Mariner are old. Sturdy, dry and yellow. Been in service for 3/4 years in a commercial setting! cool stuff. Hope you can find some velcro and make use of that vinyl, it's bomber! steve aldercreek.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim wrote: >Matt, > > About the chart case. Could you eliminate the seal altogether by >designing the chart case like a good dry bag and simply repeat fold the >open edge over and then snap close it with a fitting like on a dry bag? >Could it be designed/tailored/cut so the folded seal would then lie flat so >the chart could be easily used and stored? > >Jim et al > > > Hi Jim. Believe it or not Coleman, of all "people," makes dry bags like this. They use a multiple fold then they have velcro to hold the folds closed. I don't recall if they make a bag large enough for a chart case, but it might be worth a look. Mike -- Paddling along through fog so thick that only one's thoughts are visible, your reverie is abruptly shattered by the ancient cry of a great blue heron as she lifts uncertainly from the brilliant blue of a mussel-shell beach witnessed only by the brooding, wet spruce....your passage home seems as much back through time as it does through space. Mark H Hunt *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Here's another tip regarding chart cases. Mine comes from Mountain Equipment Coop (MEC). It's the smaller one that is not square. This makes it hard to fold the charts as they have to be narrow at one end. Which leaves you with wasted space at the top end. This is inevitably right where you will paddle off the chart. I've learned to live with this short coming. However here's the words of caution for any case with a zip lock seal. When you've come ashore for lunch, camp set up or what ever, and decide to refold your chart. Be very very careful not to get any microscopic grains of sand in the zip seal. If you do - you now have a wet bag. paddle faster gordin Warner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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