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From: John Fox <jsfox_at_cisco.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Good deal on used gear?
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 11:47:52 -0700
Hello Group,

Me again -- the newbie asking about paddling the inside passage! :-)

As an update to our plans...  since our bike trip is taking us to
New Zealand, we're thinking about taking some lessons there.  Rentals
and lessons in NZ look much cheaper so we would be able to get a lot
more time on the water for the same cost.  And hopefully take some
longer trips and make sure we really like it.

Anyway...  I also just saw the following ad for used gear.  I wanted
to get go on some the nearby lakes this summer and was hoping to find
some used stuff.  

Does this sound like a good setup for learning on?  Good price?  Good
kayaks?  Think I'd be able to sell the kayaks in a year or so without
losing too much money?

   2 Dagger Edisto Expedition models - 15ft w/ watertight bulkheads
   retractable rudders controlled by foot rests. Plus the following
   gear (most still in original packaging and NEVER used).... CARBON
   FIBER paddles - fully adjustable (lightest & stiffest),2 LOTUS life
   preservers (best made), and a ton of other gear - bilge pumps, lots
   of dry bags, waterproof deck compasses,GORTEX spray skirts (so your
   body can breath while you keep the elements out),etc.  The kayaks
   are big enough for open ocean but are maneuverable enough for the
   lakes or rivers and all of the gear is top shelf - a lot NEVER used.
   New, all this gear is worth >$3,5000 - I know I just bought the stuff.
   I will part w/ ALL kayaks & gear for $1,600. Only call if you're
   serious so we don't waste each others' time.  Beat the cost of 3
   weekend rentals and OWN all the gear!

Thanks!
-John Fox
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From: Kevin Whilden <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Good deal on used gear?
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:30:24 -0800
John,
Sounds like you've got a good plan for preparing for your trip.  However I
would strongly suggest that you don't buy any kayak until you've gained some
experience.  I'm sure I'll not be the only who says that.... ;)

Those kayaks do not seem appropriate for an expedition level trip of your
ambition.  A 15' kayak is going to be slow, and have limited space for gear.
Also, it is likely to be a plastic kayak, which is slow compared to
fiberglass.  On a long trip like yours, even minor differences in speed can
make a HUGE difference.  You should be looking for something in the 17-18'
range. Also, do not even consider a goretex spray skirt, you will need a
neoprene one for durability and safety in rough water.

You seem like an athletic couple, so I would strongly encourage you to learn
basic edging and paddling technique so that you won't need a rudder for
basic boat control.  A long trip like yours is likely to cause problems in
delicate mechanical contraptions like a rudder.  Rudders are only necessary
if the boat design is lousy and/or the paddler has no skill.

You might want to check out a few kayak manufacturers that make excellent
designs.  On a long trip, the little things make a difference.  Two manuf.
that I like are Kajaksport and Mariner.  British boats are generally okay
too.  If saving money is a big thing, then you might consider making your
own kayak.  Pygmy kayaks are a good option, and if you are careful, a wooden
boat is just as durable as any fiberglass boat, but they only cost around
$700.  If doing something "cool" is important, then make your own Baidarkas
and paddle those to Alaska (very apropos). See www.skinboats.com.

New Zealand is awesome place to paddle.  I think there are a few NZ list
members who may be able to give you some good local advice on where to
paddle. Just be careful, as most Kiwis appear to be pro-rudder heretics ;-)
I'm thankful that I got to you before they did...

Cheers,
Kevin
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Fox" <jsfox_at_cisco.com>
To: "Paddlewise" <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net>
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 10:47 AM
Subject: [Paddlewise] Good deal on used gear?


> Hello Group,
>
> Me again -- the newbie asking about paddling the inside passage! :-)
>
> As an update to our plans...  since our bike trip is taking us to
> New Zealand, we're thinking about taking some lessons there.
>
> Does this sound like a good setup for learning on?  Good price?  Good
> kayaks?  Think I'd be able to sell the kayaks in a year or so without
> losing too much money?
>
>    2 Dagger Edisto Expedition models - 15ft w/ watertight bulkheads
>    retractable rudders controlled by foot rests. Plus the following
>    gear (most still in original packaging and NEVER used).... CARBON
>    FIBER paddles - fully adjustable (lightest & stiffest),2 LOTUS life
>    preservers (best made), and a ton of other gear - bilge pumps, lots
>    of dry bags, waterproof deck compasses,GORTEX spray skirts (so your
>    body can breath while you keep the elements out),etc.  The kayaks
>    are big enough for open ocean but are maneuverable enough for the
>    lakes or rivers and all of the gear is top shelf - a lot NEVER used.
>    New, all this gear is worth >$3,5000 - I know I just bought the stuff.
>    I will part w/ ALL kayaks & gear for $1,600. Only call if you're
>    serious so we don't waste each others' time.  Beat the cost of 3
>    weekend rentals and OWN all the gear!
>

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From: Elias Ross <op_elias_ross_at_yahoo.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Good deal on used gear?
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 13:41:21 -0800 (PST)
A 15' kayak is not slow and has plenty of room for a few weeks of
supplies.  Believe me, I've done a week-long trip in one, and had
plenty of room and didn't pack very tight.

A plastic boat might add around 5% resistance, but 5% is not a whole
lot, especially if you are just starting out.  And starting out, I
wouldn't recommend a neoprene skirt:  Possibly dangerous if you're not
used to wet-exits or can't roll, and nylon is fine for the extent of
conditions you should be in anyway.

The length of a kayak is not as critical if you're not racing or you're
padddling around 3-4 knots.  We're not talking sailboats.  You
suggested a Mariner as an alternative;  go read the FAQ on their site
about hull speed.  http://www.marinerkayaks.com

--- Kevin Whilden <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org> wrote:
> Those kayaks do not seem appropriate for an expedition level trip of
> your
> ambition.  A 15' kayak is going to be slow, and have limited space
> for gear.


Send FREE Valentine eCards with Yahoo! Greetings!
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From: John Fox <jsfox_at_cisco.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Good deal on used gear?
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 21:25:13 -0700
Hey,

I guess I was unclear on my original post because a lot of
people have mentioned (private and public) that the Edisto's
would not be good for ocean kayaking.  I'm currently in
Colorado -- same place as the kayaks -- so I thought we would
just play around on the kayaks this summer on nearby lakes, then
sell the kayaks when we set off for the bike trip (hopefully
most of the other gear would be worth keeping for later use).

If we do decide to do a big trip later then I'd be much more
particular about getting boats that were well suited for that
purpose and to us.

But a few people have mentioned that this boat would be 
difficult to learn to roll, and that Gore-Tex spray skirts
aren't the most sea-worthy.  Maybe this wouldn't be the best
setup for a summer of learning?  Although I also doubt the
used sea-kayak market is as good here as it is near the sea!

-John
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From: <JSpinner2_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Good deal on used gear?
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:31:51 EST
In a message dated 2/10/02 12:23:42 PM !!!First Boot!!!, jsfox_at_cisco.com 
writes:

<< Anyway...  I also just saw the following ad for used gear.  I wanted
 to get go on some the nearby lakes this summer and was hoping to find
 some used stuff. >>

Don't buy ANY boat that you haven't paddled if that is the only boat you have 
the money to buy. Boats are unique in fit. The boat that fits you may not fit 
your partner, probably won't in fact. I've found that even from one boat of 
the same model to another that one feels comfortable and the next one wasn't. 
In buy a boat that you plan to be sitting in hour after hour, day after day, 
it just MUST fit and the boat must be one that does for you what you want it 
to. If you want to by an Edisto then test paddle it at a dealer's near you so 
you can decide if this is the boat you want.
    Personally, if there is any way possible, I'd go for a longer, glass boat 
just because the length will give you more options about where you go. But, 
you have to do what you can as far as cost. The thing is heavy and if you may 
have portages this may be something to think about. The price is good, so, it 
may be worth it but be really careful that the boats are ones both of you can 
paddle without feeling like each day is from the Spanish Inquisition, not the 
pleasure such a trip should be.
    Also, be careful who you send money to and check that what seems an 
awfully good deal isn't just awful.
Joan
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From: Kevin Whilden <kevin_at_yourplanetearth.org>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Good deal on used gear?
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 13:08:18 -0800
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Fox" <jsfox_at_cisco.com>
Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Good deal on used gear?
<snip>

> I thought we would
> just play around on the kayaks this summer on nearby lakes, then
> sell the kayaks when we set off for the bike trip (hopefully
> most of the other gear would be worth keeping for later use).
<snip>
> But a few people have mentioned that this boat would be
> difficult to learn to roll, and that Gore-Tex spray skirts
> aren't the most sea-worthy.  Maybe this wouldn't be the best
> setup for a summer of learning?  Although I also doubt the
> used sea-kayak market is as good here as it is near the sea!

John,
You, sir, are a perfect cadidate for learning whitewater kayaking!  If you
want to improve your boat-handling skills to expedition level
(sea-kayaking), whitewater kayaking is the absolute quickest (and funnest)
method.  Living in Colorado, you are in the midst of a very large whitewater
scene, and you shouldn't have any trouble finding quality instruction this
Spring.  Also, whitewater boats are dirt cheap and ideal for learning to
roll and basic boat handling and rescue skills.  Then plan on taking a basic
sea kayaking (seamanship) course in NZ, and amaze the feelthy rudder-lovers
with your skill ;-)

There are couple of great message boards with midwest specific whitewater
kayaking info, www.boatertalk.com and www.mountainbuzz.com.  Both have  very
good reception of inquisitive newbies, but also a lower signal-noise ratio
than PW.

I could go on and on about the benefits of spending even just a couple of
days in a river kayak, but I'll spare the good denizens of PW'ise this time
:)

BTW, I still don't think that deal is very good.  I seriously doubt you
would have much luck self-taught with it.  Better to get a couple of cheap
whitewater kayaks and learn in those.

Good luck,
Kevin

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