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From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Packing waste out
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 11:48:19 -0500
Hi, folks.  I've got my next trip narrowed down to 3 possibilities, where at least two of them (maybe all 3) will require human waste to be packed out.

What's the best (cleanest, least stinky, etc) way to do that?  I believe that there are some commercially bought "packs", but I also think I've seen some discussion on homemade "packs".  I think I heard them referred to once as a "rocket box"???

Also, when people talk about packing waste out, are they talking about the solids, liquids, or both?

What are the suggestions?

Thanks

Rick - Poquoson, VA

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From: Mary Zuschlag <mzuschlag_at_attbi.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Packing waste out
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2002 17:43:32 -0800
You can make your own poop tube.  Take 4 inch pvc pipe close one end with a
glued cap and use a thread cap on the other.  Take along some paper lunch
bags with chlorinated lime or kitty litter. Do your thing put the deposit in
the bag with a little kitty litter, roll it up and and place it in your poop
tube.  You can empty the tube in vault toilets.  Plastic bags are much
harder to handle in vault toilets.  They tend to clog things up when you
clean them out.

Rocket boxes are too large for a kayak we use them for rafts.  You will
probably need about 24 inches of tube. -- MZ

visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

> *********

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From: Sid Taylor <tayls_at_snowcrest.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Packing waste out
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 13:18:49 -0800
I have worked in water quality regulation for many years and have paddled
extensively in Baja.

At the risk of bucking conventional wisdom, I wouldn't pack human waste in
my boat for ten days in Mexico, especially since the environmental benefit
would likely be less than simply defecating below high tide (preferred) or
smearing it on a rock (in hot sun, if on a day hike away from the sea).
Burying it on shore not recommended.

Given the poor state of sanitation facilities in Baja, the  packed-out poop
could end up polluting scarce groundwater or fresh surface water supplies
jeopardizing human health or the biota.

Other incidental camp waste should also be considered and is more likely in
need of being packed out.

The "BUZZ"  bulletin board of the Bay Area Sea Kayakers in San Francisco had
a protracted enchange on this subject.

Sid Taylor
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From: Mary Zuschlag <mzuschlag_at_attbi.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Packing waste out
Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2002 14:33:07 -0800
In Baja we were told to use a flat rock and toss it into the ocean.  Rivers
are much smaller water bodies so you should pack it out.  I would be careful
of containers that are not biodegradable.  All the river agencies are now
requiring you to scat systems that do not use plastic bags.  They had
considerable trouble with plastic bags in legal waste systems.  I work for
the Forest Service, and have managed river permit systems and boaters so I
know it has been a problem. -- MZ


> At the risk of bucking conventional wisdom, I wouldn't pack human waste in
> my boat for ten days in Mexico, especially since the environmental benefit
> would likely be less than simply defecating below high tide (preferred) or
> smearing it on a rock (in hot sun, if on a day hike away from the sea).
> Burying it on shore not recommended.
>
visit my website: http://www.mzuschlag.com

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From: lenze <lenze_at_naturtur.dk>
subject: [Paddlewise] SV: Packing waste out
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:02:09 +0100
Dear padling friends

Sitting here on the Danish Baltic coast I´m a little confused about all this
talk about human waste. We never consider this a issue . Just dig it down !
Please explane what the problem is, I mean animals do it all the time

Havkajakcenter Svendborg
v/ Lenze Middelberg
Skaregaardsvej 9 Skovballe
DK 5700 Svendborg
(+45) 62541920
lenze_at_naturtur.dk
www.havkajakcenter.dk



********************************************
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From: Sid Taylor <tayls_at_snowcrest.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SV: Packing waste out
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:10:27 -0800
Lenz,

The short answer is pathogens and nutrients. The former are a danger to some
nonhuman animals. The latter may cause what's called diurnal oxygen
depression when prolific photosynthizing algae shut down at night causing
anoxic conditions that smother fish and other organisms dependent upon
oxygen.

Sid Taylor


> Sitting here on the Danish Baltic coast I´m a little confused about all
this
> talk about human waste. We never consider this a issue . Just dig it down
!
> Please explane what the problem is, I mean animals do it all the time
>
> Havkajakcenter Svendborg
> v/ Lenze Middelberg
> Skaregaardsvej 9 Skovballe
> DK 5700 Svendborg
> (+45) 62541920
> lenze_at_naturtur.dk
> www.havkajakcenter.dk


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From: Jackie Fenton <jackie_at_muddypuppies.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SV: Packing waste out
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 13:29:36 -0800 (PST)
> From: "lenze" <lenze_at_naturtur.dk>
>
> Dear padling friends
> 
> Sitting here on the Danish Baltic coast I´m a little confused about all this
> talk about human waste. We never consider this a issue . Just dig it down !
> Please explane what the problem is, I mean animals do it all the time


Human waste will pass human diseases to humans which makes human waste
more toxic to humans.  That is why we use raw animal waste as fertilizer 
(like... for our vegetables) and not raw human waste.  The problem also
comes from concentration in popular spots.

Also, animals don't wipe their rearends with t-paper which isn't all 
easily biodegradeable 8-)

Jackie

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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SV: Packing waste out
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 20:05:30 -0800
"lenze" <lenze_at_naturtur.dk> wrote:

> Sitting here on the Danish Baltic coast I´m a little confused about all this
> talk about human waste. We never consider this a issue . Just dig it down !
> Please explane what the problem is, I mean animals do it all the time

Lenze, aside from what others have indicated (human waste being toxic to us,
etc.), the issue in temperate climates mainly is one of popular sites
experiencing too much use.  (Different problems in desert zones -- well handled
by others already.)

In many shore environments on the west coast of North America, the usable
campsites are few in number and do not have good soil in the upland, so the
usual cat hole technique you describe is unwise.  Too many people, not enough
soil.  Hence, the rule to pack it out.

The ethic in some isolated locales (Queen Charlottes, for example) is to do
your business in the intertidal zone (and burn or take out the paper).   This
_assumes_ human pathogens in the intertidal zone will be detoxified by other
microbes or other organisms.  I've seen too much poop on "remote" beaches, and
barely escaped stepping in it enough times that I think that ethic is dying ...
never mind the assumption above may not be valid.  Plus, filter feeders that
filter our "output" will capture bacteria and become unfit for consumption.  I
won't eat bivalves that live near such beaches.

I did not see my earlier posting in the digest, so I will again mention the GTS
system, which does fit inside a yak hatch nicely.  The one I own is their Boom
Box:  http://www.eco-safe.net/  It avoids the use of liners and plastic bags to
separate each use.  Liners and other loose plastic are anathema for cleanout
time, and prohibited in some areas.

In contrast, an area I have paddled a lot has enormous piles of coarse sand
with huge camping areas not used by very many people.  There, cat holes are OK,
IMHO, because the waste will be filtered before its biodegraded products hit
the water.  Basically, these areas provide the same treatment of waste that a
septic tank and drain field provide.  If these areas were crowded, I would not
use the cat hole system there.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: lenze <lenze_at_naturtur.dk>
subject: [Paddlewise] SV: SV: Packing waste out
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 08:08:23 +0100
Dan wrote:
Lenze, aside from what others have indicated (human waste being toxic to us,
etc.), the issue in temperate climates mainly is one of popular sites
experiencing too much use.  (Different problems in desert zones -- well
handled
by others already.)

Thanks Dan, This I understand, it´s the volume and human inconsiderate
behaviour that is the problem.
We have a beautifull rockclimbing area nearby in Sweden on the coast, with
neat caves that would be very nice to spent night in, where it not.......
And of course I remember the Nepali mountain traills where I used to work as
a trekking guide. I didn´t mind the human waste that much as the trail of
pink t paper, disgusting.

Ok thank you all for clearing this up.
Lenze
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From: Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SV: Packing waste out
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2002 06:50:03 -0800
Another Paddlewiser wrote:

> Dave...how on earth do you avoid puking when emptying the boom box out???
> I'm feeling squeamish just reading about it!!

It's a hold your nose and don't breathe deeply experience.  The ones I have
used had a chemical in them that masks the odor and also inhibits bacterial
action to prevent the fermentation that makes the odor worse.  Same stuff the
RV crowd puts into its holding tanks.

If you are emptying a boom box used by others, also, wear goggles and gloves. 
Spatter could carry pathogens, especially nasty to eyes.

-- 
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR
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From: Sid Taylor <tayls_at_snowcrest.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] SV: Packing waste out
Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2002 10:10:27 -0800
Lenz,

The short answer is pathogens and nutrients. The former are a danger to some
nonhuman animals. The latter may cause what's called diurnal oxygen
depression when prolific photosynthizing algae shut down at night causing
anoxic conditions that smother fish and other organisms dependent upon
oxygen.

Sid Taylor


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