Tuesday's story in the local paper gives a good balance to the story: <http://www.canada.com/victoria/timescolonist/story.asp?id={5329DAF2-B601-4C7A-B5EA-6C773DC19861}> TV coverage can be found at: <http://www.canada.com/victoria/chtv/story.asp?id={79F3C519-8C0D-40B1-8FFE-FF5C25B8F4BC}> Not sure if these are similar to the site Shawn posted. I couldn't open that one. Anyway, a sad event and no one should be feeling smug. We all do dumb things in life. Some get us killed. And if you non-Victorians knew the extent to which kayaks are rented out in this town to untrained paddlers, you would be amazed that more of these type of incidents have not occured given our cold waters. Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug Lloyd wrote: > The story ran for a few minutes and was reasonably well balanced. The > newscaster emphasized that the kayaks were recreational models not > intended for rough water ocean paddling. The camera cut to Ocean River > Sports and commentary from the owner, Brian Henry. He again emphasized > that these recreational kayaks were intended for lake paddling in > pond-like conditions, and the best way to deal with trouble in this type > of kayak is to simply stand up and walk to shore, which obviously means > one shouldn't be using this type of craft out from the shoreline. Brian > also emphasized the point that recreational kayaks are not sold with > floatation, as they are not intended to be used where sinking would be > an issue (or something like that). He actually said that? Hard to imagine renting any watercraft without enough flotation to allow reentry and bailout. Canoes, skiffs, etc., need that. A recreational kayak can sink in 7 feet of water, and there won't be any "walking to shore" from there. Not many lakes are as uniformly shallow as 4-5 feet. In any case, try "walking" to shore in 4 feet of cold water ... even swimming to shore in cold water could be a trial. They put flotation in the recreational kayks rented locally. Sprayskirts, no. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" > We all > do dumb things in life. Some get us killed. And if you non-Victorians I get the impression from here in Switzerland that you in the States are getting bad press because of irresponsible people having accidents. Over here, we don't have the problem with sea kayaks, because there are too few of them, in fact, mine and 2 others that I know of. The situation is the same here with tourists climbing mountains unequipped, untrained, inadequate physical condition and completely unprepared for when nature suddenly gives a little growl and then these people get killed, or worse for the rescuers, hurt. The same polemic - "why should we pay?". Interestingly though, if you want to rent a powerboat or a yacht, you must show your skippers licence, otherwise no go. > knew the extent to which kayaks are rented out in this town to untrained > paddlers, you would be amazed that more of these type of incidents have > not occurred given our cold waters. Doug In France last summer we rented 2 SOT's to descend the Ardeche river. The people that rent the boats out say "you'll be fine, it's flat water". 1 hour downstream, the rapid was still interesting enough to have the French fire service (who do any inland rescuing) in the middle of the river with a power boat to fish out the kids and tourists before they drown. What's the answer to all this? Driving licences like cars and you only get one after a test. Then legislation that allows sale or rental to people that have the said licence. Is anything like that under discussion in the States? Kevin. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sadly, over any time span of events and over any selected population of people, bad things will happen. Living in view of rocket launches here south of Cape Canaveral, I know that even the best efforts of mankind are never enough to eliminate risk. And I also know that in every group of people; paddlers, hikers, pilots, sailors, etc., there's a bell-shaped distribution of preparedness. There will always be those that aren't prepared, regardless of our best efforts. However, we CAN make a difference in the shape of the curve and reduce the number of people at the bad end of the bell-shaped curve through education and associations such as Paddlewise and clubs. And a great deal of education is simply to know one's limits as opposed to learning every possible aspect of a sport. In Florida, we've considered various types of boat licensing for years. But based on the track record with licenses for driving, I don't believe that's the way to go. Government licensing degenerates quickly into a token effort of mindless renewals and non-value added taxation; a burden on everyone whose cost far exceeds it's benefits. (Please don't start a thread about whether I oppose drivers licenses ;-) For paddling, a sport that has much of it's beauty in it's simplicity, I hate to see government bureaucracy corrupt it. I believe education is the key as opposed to regulation. The Power Squadron courses here in the U.S. are an excellent example of such a system of education. -- Al Vazquez KayakGuide.com tm Places to Paddle tm - Kayaking - Canoeing - Rafting - *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I sure hope we don't go this route. Having a license sure hasn't stopped car accidents. Ignorance, stupidity, alcohol, and lack of common sense together or separately, are the reasons for fatalities. Education, not legislation will go a long way towards solving the problem. Steve Holtzman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Dyer" <k.dyer_at_bluewin.ch> To: <PaddleWise_at_paddlewise.net> Sent: April 16, 2002 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Victoria fatality and accidents in general > What's the answer to all this? Driving licences like cars and you only get > one after a test. Then legislation that allows sale or rental to people that > have the said licence. > Is anything like that under discussion in the States? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott said: ....we already have so many laws on the > books that law enforcement can't keep up. Thank God I don't live in NYC > where you can't even talk on the phone in your own car...(not that I think > it is totally safe to do so:) Next it will be eating, or maybe drinking > water, or listening to your stereo. More legislation is not the answer, not > by a longshot. Recently, California legislators have found that much of our coastline has been contaminated with dihydrogen monoxide. They have gotten the mistaken idea that this contamination can be traced to kayakers paddling along the shore. They have stated that dihydrogen monoxide or DHMO is used: as an industrial solvent and coolant. in nuclear power plants. in the production of Styrofoam. as a fire retardant. in many forms of cruel animal research. in the distribution of pesticides. Even after washing, produce remains contaminated by this chemical. as an additive in certain "junk-foods" and other food products. Additionally, the American government has refused to ban the production, distribution, or use of this damaging chemical due to its "importance to the economic health of this nation." In fact, the navy and other military organizations are conducting experiments with DHMO, and designing multi-billion dollar devices to control and utilize it during warfare situations. Hundreds of military research facilities receive tons of it through a highly sophisticated underground distribution network. Many store large quantities for later use. Let's put the blame for contaminating our oceans with DHMO where it belongs and not on the paddles of kayakers. More information can be found at: http://lme.mankato.msus.edu/class/629/dhmo.html Steve Holtzman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> ....we already have so many laws on the > > books that law enforcement can't keep up. Thank God I don't live in NYC > > where you can't even talk on the phone in your own car...(not that I think > > it is totally safe to do so:) Next it will be eating, or maybe drinking > > water, or listening to your stereo. More legislation is not the answer, > not > > by a longshot. As a persistent pedestrian in NYC (I walk for miles almost daily), I can assure you that that law on using a cell phone while driving is not a nonsense rule but a necessity. People are complete idiots while talking on the phone and making turns while pedestrians are crossing the street. But it is almost a moot point...people are violating it left and right just as they are violating seat belt rules. But if they get into an accident and it can be proven that they were on the phone, then they will have the book thrown at them. To get back to the subject of the discussion...licensing and rules governing kayakers: This debate rears its head every so often. When I came on the kayaking scene in the late 1980s one was raging as the American Canoe Association moved to certify kayakers. Many paddlers felt they "didn't need no filty badges." They arguments got quite comical with more than two sides to the issue. At one point kayaking notables had formed something like 5 sides to the issue. I remember roaming into a symposium where 3 of these guys suddenly ran into each other and sparks flew. I think it is fine to have certification around. Many people like the discipline of it and the set goals as they climb up the star ladder. Permits are often okay. We have such a system for use of the NYC Parks kayak launches. The permits are not really enforced except at one launch site in a marina with a locked gate (you need to show it). The permit system helps show interest and can lead to the city creating more such sites. The permit also comes with some sheets of warning and advise on the risks of paddling in busy waters. It is elementary stuff but at least the paddler is exposed to the advice and warnings. This does mean he or she will heed it but it may give some of the individuals pause to get the equipment and training they need. ralph diaz-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024 Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com "Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Accidents that occur to those who routinely place themselves into potentially 'dangerous' situations, or practice their hobby/avocation/interests in potentially 'dangerous' environments/conditions... this seems to be one segment of the 'market' for regulation that is most likely to: a) comply & embrace the plan; b) chafe at, reject and/or ignore on 'grounds'. The routinely cited 'volunteer victim' who ignores common practices, precautions and prevailing sense appears to be a different segment of this population. Regulations aimed at curtailing their exposure would likely be aimed at: a) burdening those who manufacture, sell, or lease the equipment (boats) with the 'responsibility' to warn, inform or deny use; b) releasing these same parties from legal obligation/liability for improper use and/or application of same equipment. When I mentioned the 12-19 age group as a potentially significant element, I did so not to picture these young people taking up sea kayaking en masse, but rather to note that they represent a demographic bulge capable of placing a rather large footprint on many social issues and concerns....especially as they move into adulthood. The backpacking boom of the early-to-mid 1970's brought many new people into the woods and out into the wilderness. But compared to the numbers of people now engaged in backcountry activities, such a 'boom' was merely a blip. If you travel to many 'wilderness' areas, your experience is significantly eroded by the sheer crush of numbers. Park policies change, the potential for overuse being a major cause for shifts in access 'licensing'. SAR operations are burdened in many communities, charge significant fees, or make explicit claims limiting use and liability ("You are entering a wilderness area, there is no guarantee for your safety or rescue...."). The hype of extreme sports, the 'look and feel' marketing of outdoor lifestyle products, etc. can be seen as indicators of trends. The footprints made by these trends become increasingly problematic with frequency and size. Sea Kayaking already has the reputation of being a sport that attracts large numbers of people to 'limited' areas. If you want the high likelihood of solitude, take up wilderness canoe tripping (yes, I know that these areas are also stressed and that many kayak for years in relative solitude). What contributes greatly to the 'volunteer victim' accident is quick access & minimal effort to gain maximum exposure to danger. Realistic approaches to limiting these types of problems will have to address those critical components first & foremost. If the number of these accidents approaches 'critical mass', then others will be moved to act and/or 'accept' regulatory action.. -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "ralph diaz" <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com > law on using a cell phone while driving is not a nonsense rule but a necessity. > they are violating seat belt rules. But if they get into an accident and it > can be proven that they were on the phone, then they will have the book > thrown at them. I agree with you on that. An interesting law in Switzerland: Any person proposing an expedition (hike, climb, picnic) in the mountains is LIABLE for the safety of the people in the group and is considered legally as a mountain guide, though not a professional. It caused a lot of outcry at first, but after a couple of high profile court cases, a lot of people started to that little walk from the car to the top a lot more seriously. > I think it is fine to have certification around. Many people like the > discipline of it and the set goals as they climb up the star ladder. > It is elementary stuff but at least the > paddler is exposed to the advice and warnings. This does mean he or she > will heed it but it may give some of the individuals pause to get the > equipment and training they need. The French use a card system with different coloured paddles for different levels of experience split into WW, Sea and flatwater groups. Levels attained are not transferred from one group to the other, so you're a red hot sea kayaker, but you still need learn WW etc. Kevin. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I said: <snip> <<<< The camera cut to Ocean River Sports and commentary from the owner, Brian Henry. He again emphasized that these recreational kayaks were intended for lake paddling in pond-like conditions, and the best way to deal with trouble in this type of kayak is to simply stand up and walk to shore, which obviously means one shouldn't be using this type of craft out from the shoreline. Brian also emphasized the point that recreational kayaks are not sold with floatation, as they are not intended to be used where sinking would be an issue (or something like that). >>>> Dave said: <<<< He actually said that? Hard to imagine renting any watercraft without enough flotation to allow reentry and bailout. Canoes, skiffs, etc., need that. A recreational kayak can sink in 7 feet of water, and there won't be any "walking to shore" from there. Not many lakes are as uniformly shallow as 4-5 feet. In any case, try "walking" to shore in 4 feet of cold water ... even swimming to shore in cold water could be a trial...They put flotation in the recreational kayaks rented locally. Sprayskirts, no. >>>> To be fair to Brian, my quote wasn't exact, but yes, that was the essential context. It came across on-camera as well-reasoned. He was trying to make a point, not a logically consistent statement of fact. These craft are simply play-toys, was the message. And if one wants to equip them for a bit more of a serious jaunt, then skirts and flotation can be added. I didn't even know you could get skirts for these things until yesterday. My friend who bought a Rec Kayak last year (I gave a brief description about how I took him out and scared the crap out of him in some clapotis, off of an aircraft carrier -- as an educational method prior to him purchasing his tandem) told me a skirt wasn't even mentioned. Canoes don't come with skirts either, but you can order them. Then again, all canoes sold in Canada I believe, must have flotation or some inherent buoyancy. Perhaps that is one of the real issues here, but then the boats never sank anyway off Gonzales Bay...just one of the paddlers! As for Brian's comment again, I think it came across on PW as a bit out of context. And just for clarification, Ocean River Sports didn't rent the kayaks in question. They could have been mail-order, rented from one of the many "sports-equipment-for-hire-real-cheap" stores that are proliferating, or could have been sold to the paddlers by a guy on the island here who runs around with a bunch on top of his car selling them to every Tom, Dick, Harry, Jane and junior. On the whole, we have a global problem with these Rec Kayaks. That was the first comment when I phoned the Coasties: "Were them flat-bottomed plastic things". Kids will be blown out from shore in them at lakes, drunk teens will flaunt fate at night by stealing them from the neighbor's cottage dock, etc., etc. Regulation isn't the answer. Education is. Educating a mass-marketing consumer society brain-dead to the notion of slow-fix training methodologies isn't going to be easy, however. Nor is dismantling the embedded-already-reality of today's "easy-kayakism" now given a huge dose of Viagra vis a vis the introduction of cheap plastic recreational kayaks. I'm not sure if Brian's comment ultimately are a help or a hindrance. I do know I've been told a few time here and there, to keep my opinions to myself. But thanks for "floating" yours. Beats listening to my heart beat. :-) Doug *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.4.0 : Thu Aug 21 2025 - 16:33:29 PDT