I agree that educating paddlers about risks and how to promote safety is very important. Many retailers and others who are active in the industry do a remarkable job to promote safe paddling, which probably explains why the number of accidents is as low as it is. Unfortunately, more and more boats are sold by mass merchants who simply sell a plastic item and are not in a position to provide the needed education as part of the sale. I do not see how we are going to educate all the new paddlers who get into paddling that way. A way to make their paddling safer is to improve the safety of the boats that are sold. It was mentioned earlier that boats are generally sold without flotation - or with barely enough flotation to keep the unloaded boat afloat. This is fine for most of us. We simply add the flotation we need. But we can hardly expect a new owner of a recreational boat to add flotation unless he is told about the importance. The problem is similar to the PFD issue, but there is one difference. We can't get everybody to wear PFDs, but it is certainly possible to make sure a paddler always has an effective flotation aid available. I think all recreational boats sold should be required to have enough built-in flotation to keep boat and occupants afloat and placed to keep the boat upright and stable after a capsize. I know that my suggestion would add a level of regulation that we do not like very much, but such rules are in place and seem to work well for other craft. Why should paddle craft be exempt? One could make the argument that adding built-in flotation would add a lot of cost for the manufacturers and in turn make boats more expensive. But we would save the cost of adding flotation after purchasing the boat - and would not the added safety be worth some expense? Alv Elvestad Pakboats *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My personal take... Make all new paddlers learn in Alaska; in a bay with a tidewater glacier, 40+ mph catabolic winds, combined with a 15' tidal change over a glacial moraine....that'll make them take it a helluva lot more serious, or not pursue the sport at all. Or send them out to Dutch Harbor to learn, where if they aren't strong enough to paddle against the current, they might be swept away to Japan. Seriously, with the population this planet has, and the popularity towards 'extreme' sports, we simply cannot keep all would be 'morons' safe and happy in the paddling environment. It is truly sad to hear of fatalities in kayaking, or any sport for that matter. Just last weekend, we had 6 avalanches in the Anchorage bowl, with several fatalities (snowmachiners & backcountry skiers). As much as we try as a society, we simply cannot prevent every accidental death. In most circumstances, these deaths are directly attributable to inexperience -v- conditions. A point comes along when individual accountability has to play a direct role in this. As a former teacher, I have seen the same pass away into nothing in American Society. While I am sure we all strive to be 'our brothers keeper', we are failing to be our own keeper as well. I may be way out in left field with this, but when I started getting into kayaking, I visited every store that sold kayaks, and picked every person's brain about the sport. Then bought several great books on the sport and read them front to back; then took several classes on it. I knew that bottom line - I would be the one that would put myself into a potential life-threatening situation, and would be the only one to get myself out of it. With the litargy of information available to anyone that has access to a library today, there is absolutely no excuse to not know what one is getting themselves into. Scott Simpson Anchorage Alaska "There is always one more thing you can do to influence any situation" Lt. Gen Harold Moore, USA (Ret) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/16/2002 5:41:21 PM Pacific Daylight Time, SCANSPORT_at_CONNRIVER.NET writes: > I know that my suggestion would add a level of regulation that we do not > like very much, but such rules are in place and seem to work well for other > > craft. Why should paddle craft be exempt? One could make the argument that > adding built-in flotation would add a lot of cost for the manufacturers and > > in turn make boats more expensive. But we would save the cost of adding > flotation after purchasing the boat - and would not the added safety be > worth some expense? > > Alv Elvestad > Pakboats > So, if my kayak is filled with drybags and camping gear and no *government approved* float bags am I going to get a ticket from whichever 51 agencies that could conceivably give me a ticket? (By the way, who exactly is going to do the regulatin'?) Or is the *law* going to be written so as to include dry bags? I can just see it now: *sorry sir, tell the judge that. Bags with dirty laundry aren't on my list as class 3 flotation bags.* How about SOF, plywood and strip builders? Ultimately, the noble quest for safety has to be enforced by somebody. As sympathetic as I am to the injured and the families and friends of the deceased I also sympathize with those who are saddled by the *regulation reaction* to every tragedy. Dos Centavos, Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I know that my suggestion would add a level of regulation that we do not > like very much, but such rules are in place and seem to work well for other > > craft. Why should paddle craft be exempt? Every year, here in sunny Southern California, we have tourists who manage to seriously injure themselves, become paralyzed, or die as a result of swimming in the surf. I suppose what we need is for people to be licensed to swim in the ocean. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scott, Right on--but you forgot that we also have lots of pedestrians that get killed or injured. We should also license walking. No one should be allowed to do it without having passed a state certified test first. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: <KiAyker_at_aol.com> > Every year, here in sunny Southern California, we have tourists who manage > to seriously injure themselves, become paralyzed, or die as a result of > swimming in the surf. I suppose what we need is for people to be licensed to > swim in the ocean. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "Kevin Dyer" <k.dyer_at_bluewin.ch> >> From: "Doug Lloyd" >> >> We all >> do dumb things in life. Some get us killed. And if you non-Victorians > > I get the impression from here in Switzerland that you in the States are > getting bad press because of irresponsible people having accidents. Over Actually, Victoria (The City of Gardens) is located in British Columbia, a province of Canada. I suspect Canadians prefer to keep it that way :-) The US has definitely had its share of accidents, though. I'm not sure if the average person on the street is very aware of them, however. Either here in the US or in Canada, generally speaking. > getting bad press because of irresponsible people having accidents. Over > here, we don't have the problem with sea kayaks, because there are too few > of them, in fact, mine and 2 others that I know of. The situation is the > same here with tourists climbing mountains unequipped, untrained, inadequate > physical condition and completely unprepared for when nature suddenly gives > a little growl and then these people get killed, or worse for the rescuers, > hurt. The same polemic - "why should we pay?". <snip> > What's the answer to all this? Driving licences like cars and you only get > one after a test. Then legislation that allows sale or rental to people that > have the said licence. The idea of licensing drivers began way back when cars were new and drivers were running over people in the streets or into each other. Unfortunately, dangerous drivers often claim other victims, too. Do you think a license would be in order for climbing in your country since that appears to be more problematic in your area or is it already the case that licenses are required? Should visitors be required to pass the test and pay for a license in another country? Who is going to establish the standards for testing? Actually, I would imagine there are more accidents related to riding bicycles, especially with kids. Should they be required to obtain a license before owning/using a bicycle? How about swimming? Far more deaths associated with swimming than kayaking. If we really want licensing, I'm sure we could find *someone* in our government (as difficult as it is to imagine) who would be willing to champion that cause if it meant collecting more fees for the government. 8-} jackie (who doesn't like talk of more fees the day after April 15 8-/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Licensure may be a more compelling argument when regulating powercraft or watercraft used to transport passengers for hire. It will remain moot until the 'tragedy' of these recurrent accidents becomes a cost burden on communities (either by direct expense of SAR operations and/or litigation); the perception of those who perish shifts toward a 'victim' orientation and away from the 'due to operator ignorance and error' tag; or the scope and urgency of the accidents begins to reach a more localized critical mass. In this last scenario, some communities or locations where these types of accidents become burdensome will begin to limit access, regulate sale & leasing, etc. The current age group represented by the 12-19 year old demographic is the largest generation ever in the US. They represent a 150 billion dollar a year market. If 'outdoor' entertainment becomes heavily favored by this population, then one might expect numbers, accidents, and consequences to perhaps reach such critical mass. On the other hand that 150 billion figure also represents a significant sense of economic entitlement that is, in large, anti-regulatory. What happens if this sort of accident, predicated by ill-prepared, improperly equipped, and environmentally ignorant 'victims' begins to rack up a toll reported in the same breath as 'holiday traffic fatalities'? -wjj *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: Will Jennings <will_at_bigwoodenradio.com> > > The current age group represented by the 12-19 year old demographic is the > largest generation ever in the US. They represent a 150 billion dollar a year > market. > If 'outdoor' entertainment becomes heavily favored by this population, > then one might expect numbers, accidents, and consequences to perhaps > reach such critical mass. 12-19 year-olds taking up seakayaking in mass? Hey, maybe kayak designers would finally design a kayak I could plug my tv, boom-box and cooler into. :-) Think we'd finally get those rocket props? Rows of twinkling and chaser lights along the beams would be really cool. Think of the HUGE safety factor at night!! :-)))) > What happens if this sort of accident, predicated by ill-prepared, improperly > equipped, > and environmentally ignorant 'victims' begins to rack up a toll reported in the > same > breath as 'holiday traffic fatalities'? Bow-to-stern, beam-to-beam kayak traffic during the holidays? What a nightmare. I'd find another past-time. Something quiet like... Miami Beach. cheers, jackie _ _ .----^----. _ / \O/ \ / \ \\ " / \ \\ v---v---v---v---v `\ _ _ | __________\___ / \0/ \ | ( .__________\ . . " | \ / !!!!!!!!!!! \ / | \| ,sSSs,\, blah \ / )\w/( \ ,sSS..)/{) blah _V_ <<..> \ sSSS_v)/ \ \ | | )<*> /\ SS[(\_]___\ `| | .=======. <(_/_o_o_ / \sS[_`-+---+) | | | Cooler|>--\----+-------+<---->-'---`-----\-------------') ~~~~~~~ ~~~ jf~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ ~~~~\~ ~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~ o \ o \\ o o (\ \\ o o >jf:-) ` (/ o o o o *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin Dyer <k.dyer_at_bluewin.ch> said: > What's the answer to all this? Driving licences like cars and you only get > one after a test. Then legislation that allows sale or rental to people that > have the said licence. > Is anything like that under discussion in the States? Which generated a s**t-storm! Nice job, Kevin. We needed to get the Geritol in our systems moving again. Jackie is proud of you. (Kevin O., too.) In answer: naaaah, we don't need licenses. We need education. To wit: outfitters in the northwest part of the US seem to demand some sort of assurance renters are "qualified," either in the form of a card certifying the renters have taken a basic sea kayaking course (wet exit, re-entry methods, basic hypothermia instruction, etc.), or in the form of a *really convincing* description of your experience. Some will not allow the experience you allege to suffice; they demand you take a basic class, anyway. Mostly CYA for possible litigation, I expect. We will never prevent the truly unable from endangering themselves. The pair in Victoria could have seen the turbulent water from their launch position. If they were actually alcohol-impaired (as reported), that compounds their bad judgment. Oh, that word, "judgment" crops up again: licensing of the type used for automobile drivers and the like __never__ ensures the neophyte has that. A couple years behind the wheel helps. And so, for paddlers. Each of us has stories in our background of lapses in judgment (which we survived), the stuff from which "judgment" is carved. That's what keeps people on the beach when conditions exceed their ability and conditioning. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave Kruger" <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> To: "Paddlewise" <paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net> > In answer: naaaah, we don't need licenses. We need education. I'd go with that, but that immediately implies a minimum standard of education, which implies an assosciation, which mean a big organisation, training, publicity, and therfore some poor sods who get selected to "volunteer" for a lifetime of administration! > To wit: outfitters in the northwest part of the US seem to demand some sort of > assurance renters are "qualified," either in the form of a card certifying the > renters have taken a basic sea kayaking course (wet exit, re-entry methods, > basic hypothermia instruction, etc.), or in the form of a *really convincing* > description of your experience. Some will not allow the experience you allege > to suffice; they demand you take a basic class, anyway. Mostly CYA for > possible litigation, I expect. It's a start isn't it? At least it weeds out the ones that can work out where the bow is because it has two pointy ends. CYA is the most disgusting form of human behaviour, but I believe it's an obligation, because people always look for alternate explanations to Murphy's law. > We will never prevent the truly unable from endangering themselves. Right. Especially if they drink first. A thought: if a certain proficiency level becomes an obligation, I'll be up the creek without a paddle or a kayak. There are no sea kayak organisations in Switzerland. Maybe I'll start the official Swiss federation, with me as president, member and examination authority for kayaking competence. Bye, Kevin. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave said; > And so, for paddlers. Each of us has stories in our > background of lapses in > judgment (which we survived), the stuff from which "judgment" > is carved. > That's what keeps people on the beach when conditions exceed > their ability and > conditioning. So true. What's the definition of judgement again? Something like.... "Knowledge gained from bad experiences", or something similar? Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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