I second Steve's comment that deck bags and surf don't mix. Net bags that let water flow through are "more better," though nothing on the deck is best. (I have a small day hatch embedded in the front deck - a neat solution for VHF radio protection, etc.) If you insist on a deck bag, do get a fully waterproof one to make the trouble worth it, then you can at least have a safe place for your camera, etc.(from immersion damage, anyway). Question: Canadian PW paddlers out there, where and how are you carrying your CG required "one buoyant heaving line of not less than 15 m in length," or do you use your tow line as a substitute for the regulation? Doug LLoyd ("Recreational" Paddler) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Doug Lloyd" <dougl_at_islandnet.com> > Question: Canadian PW paddlers out there, where and how are you carrying > your CG required "one buoyant heaving line of not less than 15 m in > length," or do you use your tow line as a substitute for the regulation? I carry my tow line/heaving line on the rear deck with a deck towing rig (on my Solstice - the Ellesmere deck rig is still on my desk waiting to be installed; pfd tow strap suffices for now) . The throw bag is stowed under the bungies. I have my throw line tied in a chain sinnet with a Kong paddle 'biner forming a roughly 5m tow line. Removing the biner lets the chain run out giving me the 15m throw. Not strickly legal, I think, since I have to undo the biner and run out the line to get a throw line, but I can't think of a scenario where a throw line would be critical and I'm likely more in need of a tow line. If the CG or marine unit ever inspects the throw bag, they could fine me for it I suppose. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael wrote: - >but I can't think of a scenario where a throw line would >be critical and I'm likely more in need of a tow line G'Day Michael, How about getting kayakers and small fishing boats away from rocks, cliff faces or out of failed gauntlets? I've seen and heard about that happening as many times as people needing a tow in free water where you can get right up to the boat. Do the US regulations require a throw line per boat or just one per group? All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> > Michael wrote: - > >but I can't think of a scenario where a throw line would > >be critical and I'm likely more in need of a tow line > > How about getting kayakers and small fishing boats away from rocks, cliff > faces or out of failed gauntlets? I've seen and heard about that happening > as many times as people needing a tow in free water where you can get right > up to the boat. While this could happen, we don't get such exciting conditions where I paddle. I'm mostly on Lakes Ontario and Huron (specifically Georgian Bay) in the Great Lakes. While these are very big bodies of water, if the waves get that nasty, the wind conditions are such that we wouldn't launch. If I regularly paddled in other areas where tidal or wave conditions were like the ocean, I'd probably switch to a double rescue line rig where I have separate tow and throw lines in a single kit. There are a number of these on the market. > Do the US regulations require a throw line per boat or just > one per group? I don't know the US regs, but Canadian regs require one per boat. As such, my fallback if not paddling alone is to know that I have a tow line and am a strong paddler and others (like my partner Amie) have a throw line ready to go. As long as we're not separated much, we can pool the required resources. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 10:37 PM 02/04/25 -0700, Doug Lloyd wrote: >I second Steve's comment that deck bags and surf don't mix. > >Question: Canadian PW paddlers out there, where and how are you carrying >your CG required "one buoyant heaving line of not less than 15 m in >length," or do you use your tow line as a substitute for the regulation? Mine goes just behind the cockpit under the deck bungees. The rope bag has a buckle and strap system to keep it on the deck. The draw back, as I discovered last Sunday, is that the buckles can get snared in the bungees. It takes a few minutes to work it loose. If the conditions were really bad or were predicted to get worse I might move it to the front. Once untangled from the bungees I hook it to my short towing pig, paddle up to the kayak in distress latch on and tow away. I've never tried to throw the bag. I'm skeptical about how well that would work. Gordin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
-----Original Message----- From: PeterO [SMTP:rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au] <snip> Do the US regulations require a throw line per boat or just one per group? *************************************************************************** I don't know of any legal requirement to carry a throw line in the U.S. I think even the Canadian rule is only a few years old. BTW, I was told that Americans from south of the border are not required to follow Canadian throw line or PFD color rules in Canada, unless their stay exceeds a certain length of time, which I can't remember. Does anyone know how far a heaving line can be thrown from a seated position in a kayak? It certainly is not a skill taught in any sea kayaking class I have been in. Hmm. Maybe I should dig out my old whitewater throw bag and try it myself. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Michael wrote: - >While this could happen, we don't get such >exciting conditions where I paddle. Chuck wrote: - >Does anyone know how far a heaving line can be >thrown from a seated position in a kayak? Peter Treby wrote: - >Is the use of a throw line necessary in sea >kayaking, do you think? More a river requirement. G'Day Michael, Chuck and Peter (Treby), Carrying throw ropes is not part of any formal education, recommendation or law in Oz as far as I know. I haven't seen many sea kayakers here with them and several expert sea kayakers I respect have tried to dissuade me from using one. However, I discussed throw ropes vs tow ropes at length with Wayne Langmaid of Ocean Planet who described its virtues including rescuing people and boats in trouble near cliffs and rocks, but for a long time I took the sceptical view. What Wayne said made sense. The clincher was when a friend about a month ago told how he came out of his boat while trying to run a gauntlet through a sea cave. He brushed his head against a rock and the conditions were impossible for rolling but he managed to swim clear dragging his boat after a long struggle and got close enough to his companions for an assisted rescue. Knowing his companions I doubt if he was in serious danger after the initial capsize (the water was warm) but a throw rope might have helped. The other instances, where I wished I had a throw rope, were for minor problems near rocks and cliffs in Sydney harbour (I don't like going near rocks or cliffs in rough water or swell unless I have to and as for gauntlets! I've got better ways to spend my time than repairing gelcoat:~)) Anyway it was a swamped kayak being pushed on to rocks and I had to fit a towline and pull it clear. Another friend reported a similar event with a small fishing dinghy with a failed motor which he had to pull away from rocks. Another was where someone in a plastic boat was forced into a 'seal' landing on oyster covered rocks. If he'ld known I had a throw rope I could have got him off with much less damage to his hands, paddle and boat. Chuck has a major good point. I think Wayne can throw it the full 15 meters but I've only recently started taking throw ropes seriously and have been practising sitting down on the lawn where I typically throw it accurately 10 to 15 meters. Must try doing it on the water. The bag is the same used by Wayne. Its a big bag and the rope is 15 meters long, floatable and brightly colored. The carabiner is big and ugly and looks as though it would scratch a boat so I've covered parts of it with heat shrink. The carabiner really puts people off but I haven't exchanged it for a smaller prettier unit because I reckon you need the weight to get a decent throw. Also it makes a nice handle for people to hang on to. The carabiner is stored in an elastic fabric pocket, which would be some protection if it accidentally hit the rescuee. So I guess I'm saying throw ropes could be useful where the sea meets the land! All the best, PeterO Sydney, Australia (Please don't anyone raise the issue of underarm vs overarm throws Its a very sensitive subject to cricketers in this hemisphere:~) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au > (Please don't anyone raise the issue of underarm vs overarm throws > Its a very sensitive subject to cricketers in this hemisphere:~) 'Morning Peter and Paddlwise. My rope throwing experience tells me that neither under nor over arm throwing work in kayak situations. The throw being a flat trajectory, the best distance/accuracy method is a back-handed skim, something like throwing a Frisbee. With a little practice, this can be done ambidextrously. Cheers, Kevin. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At a leader's training session this past Saturday we demonstrated throwing a tow-line to a victim stranded on the rocks with some 20 feet of surge-zone. The sharp end of the tow-line, a waist belt system, was attached to a norsaq (Inuit throwing stick) and the norsaq was thrown over the bow of the stranded kayak. Worked like a charm but it was a bit reminiscent of a story I head about the Derek boinking a victim on the head during a similar thrown-tow-line demonstration. Jed -----Original Message----- From: Kevin Dyer ----- Original Message ----- From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au > (Please don't anyone raise the issue of underarm vs overarm throws > Its a very sensitive subject to cricketers in this hemisphere:~) 'Morning Peter and Paddlwise. My rope throwing experience tells me that neither under nor over arm throwing work in kayak situations. The throw being a flat trajectory, the best distance/accuracy method is a back-handed skim, something like throwing a Frisbee. With a little practice, this can be done ambidextrously. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 4/29/2002 8:49:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, k.dyer_at_bluewin.ch writes: > My rope throwing experience tells me that neither under nor over arm > throwing work in kayak situations. The throw being a flat trajectory, the > best distance/accuracy method is a back-handed skim, something like > throwing a Frisbee. With a little practice, this can be done > ambidextrously. In the pet section of our local grocery store I recently came across a sort of throwing stick for the use of dog owners, who want to increase the range or ease of their ball throwing. I suppose that could be made to work for a rope bag also. After all, Inuit used throwing sticks to hurl darts! (Those of you interested in that kind of think might want to check out www.atlatl.com -- I have no affiliation with those guys.) Best regards, Ralph Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.PouchBoats.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>>>---Its a big bag and the rope is 15 meters long, floatable and brightly colored. The carabiner is big and ugly and looks as though it would scratch a boat so I've covered parts of it with heat shrink. The carabiner really puts people off but I haven't exchanged it for a smaller prettier unit because I reckon you need the weight to get a decent throw. Throwbags are a primary rescue device in whitewater. Typically they aren't longer than 70 feet since that's a practical limit on how far you can throw one. Take That Carabiner Off!!! if you will be throwing that rope. You do not need the extra weight. The concentrated mass of the rope in the bag is more than sufficient. If more weight is necessary, just dip some water into the bag... It can give someone quite a headache. >>>Also it makes a nice handle for people to hang on to. The carabiner is stored in an elastic fabric pocket, which would be some protection if it accidentally hit the rescuee. It is also a dangerous handle. In whitewater throwbags where it comes with a loop of rope at the bottom, we tie knots into it so the rescuee cannot get his hand wrapped in it and can let go if an emergency arises. You never want anything that a hand can get trapped in... In cold water situations where a victim may be unable to grip a rope, have him wrap the rope around his arm a turn or three. There's usually sufficient friction for him to hang on with an elbow bend, yet can release if he has to... So I guess I'm saying throw ropes could be useful where the sea meets the land! Basically so, most of the time such ropes are used to pendulum the victim to shore. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Joe wrote: - >Take That Carabiner Off!!! if you will be throwing that rope. >You do not need the extra weight. The concentrated mass of >the rope in the bag is more than sufficient. If more weight >is necessary, just dip some water into the bag... >It can give someone quite a headache. SNIP >It is also a dangerous handle. In whitewater throwbags where >it comes with a loop of rope at the bottom, we tie knots into >it so the rescuee cannot get his hand wrapped in it and can >let go if an emergency arises. You never want anything that >a hand can get trapped in... Jed wrote: - >The sharp end of the tow-line, a waist belt system, was attached >to a norsaq (Inuit throwing stick) and the norsaq was thrown over >the bow of the stranded kayak. Worked like a charm but it was a >bit reminiscent of a story I heard about the Derek boinking a >victim on the head during a similar thrown-tow-line demonstration. G'day Joe and Jed, Thanks very much for the warnings! The throw bag I'm talking about is made by a well known kayaking equipment manufacture and comes with safety instructions printed on the bag including a warning "do not insert wrist in loop or tie yourself to rope" If I was in trouble in the water I might not see those instructions. In the light of your comments it seems to be a potentially hazardous bit of gear. It does have an elastic neoprene pocket for the carabiner which should provide protection if it hit someone but I take your point that it might hurt if it hit someone hard on the head. It comes with two rope loops held open with plastic tubing. These are large enough to trap a hand. The carabiner is large enough to just get an adults fingers in but a child could probably get their whole hand in. After thinking about your advice I'm going to replace the carabiner with a much smaller unit, and replace the loops with a light weight toggle, but will make sure the carabiner and toggle fits in the protective neoprene pocket.. Throwing sticks sound like they are equally hazardous - but what is a Derek? All the best and the feedback is much appreciated, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just adding my $.02 to the fray. I also carry a small whitewater style throwbag on my rear deck. It has come in handy quite a few times. I recall an incident where a canoe was being blown into a shoal and the paddlers (who were inexperienced with paddling and controlling in the wind) were unable to regain control of the boat. I was able to paddle, toss them the throw bag and tow them away. There wasn't time to set up a proper tow, but it was suprisingly easy to just hold the rope in one hand and paddle normally. I believe that due to the small amount of resistance of the canoe it was relatively easy to tow. The tow rope is also very valuable for hanging laundry to dry. For this I prefer the more static narrower gauge rope that you find in many smaller throw bags. The wider rope used for many contact tows sags too much between the trees. I am not sure, but fairly certain than a laundry hanging rope is not required in the US by Coast Guard regulations, but I could be wrong about that. -Patrick At Monday, 29 April 2002, "Joe Pylka" <pylka_at_castle.net> wrote: [SNIP] > Throwbags are a primary rescue device in whitewater. Typically they >aren't longer than 70 feet since that's a practical limit on how far you can >throw one. > > Take That Carabiner Off!!! if you will be throwing that rope. You do >not need the extra weight. The concentrated mass of the rope in the bag is >more than sufficient. If more weight is necessary, just dip some water into >the bag... It can give someone quite a headache. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Chuck, what are the color rules? John Blackburn Chuck Holst wrote: > -----Original Message----- > BTW, I was told that Americans from south of the border are not required to > follow Canadian throw line or PFD color rules in Canada, unless their stay > exceeds a certain length of time, which I can't remember. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 09:22 PM 02/04/28 -0500, Chuck Holst wrote: >Does anyone know how far a heaving line can be thrown from a seated >position in a kayak? Not far and not very accurately. If your balance is not right it's easy to flip over when you put your energy into the throw. It's important to have your kayak pointing at the person you are throwing the bag to. If your boat is at right angles to the victim your chances of dumping are much higher. Doing it on flat water is easier, however I imagine conditions would be quite bad should you ever need to do this - thus the possibility of success would be greatly diminished. For anyone in the Victoria BC area the Wednesday morning paddlers from the Victoria Canoe and Kayak Club are getting together at Elk Lake (the north end by the beach) to practice rolling, safety tows, rescues and such. Meet at 9 a.m. and on the water at 10 a.m. the water will be cold so bring immersion gear. Give me a call if you're interested 472-1869. Gordin Warner *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I can't find my Canadian boating guide, but as I recall, the color selection is limited to yellow, orange, and maybe red, which would rule out my purple Palm PFD. Chuck ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chuck, what are the color rules? John Blackburn Chuck Holst wrote: > -----Original Message----- > BTW, I was told that Americans from south of the border are not required to > follow Canadian throw line or PFD color rules in Canada, unless their stay > exceeds a certain length of time, which I can't remember. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Chuck Holst" <cholst_at_bitstream.net> > I can't find my Canadian boating guide, but as I recall, the color > selection is limited to yellow, orange, and maybe red, which would rule out > my purple Palm PFD. The only item I found on the CCG web site suggests that this is true, but on the other hand, you can get CCG approved PFDs in lots of other colors, including blue and purple. I know they relaxed a lot of the PFD rules a few years ago, since they decided that having people wear them beats having them not wear a regulation-color PFD (hey, fashion rules...). They also allow more pockets than they used to. Really big pockets are still verboten. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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