P'Wisers, the following is intended to be constructive and helpful..... hope it reads that way. If not, tell me to go back to sleep :-) Bottom Line: Are we really having a problem getting paddlers together -- if so, are we over-engineering a solution -- what's the "real" need and value of the proposed database -- are we talking about building this thing because it's fun or because it's needed -- and will data rather than discussion have an adverse affect on the group? Here's my buck-fifty (I couldn't stop myself at just 2 cents)... Conceptually, I think the objective of making it easier for P'Wisers to get together is admirable and I intend to support it, whether it's the tier method or something else. But, I have concerns about the "need" for it and how the methods might change the personality of P'Wise. So, I'm compelled to play devils advocate for a moment, and ask you to think about a few things. We're talking about a resource to put a travelling paddler in touch with a local paddler, or at least his knowledge of the area. We're already able to do that today, through posts - are those posts broken or ineffective? If not, what are we hoping to accomplish? If posts are "broken" and not serving the need, is a databse the best way to fix it, or are there deeper issues with the nature of the community that we should be addressing in stead? We've all seen posts that start with something like "I'll be travelling to .......". But now, we're talking about replacing those posts with data in the form of some sort of spreadsheet, right? Is the data thought to be better, faster, or more reliable than the human interaction of the posts? I'd say no. It's potentially out-of-date the minute you publish it, and many folks won't even bother to fill it out. The only reason I can think of for using the data over posts is to avoid submitting a post. It would allow me to view the data then contact an individual back-channel rather then the whole community. That implies that we see more value in a database and priviate discussions than we do in "community" interaction. Is that what we want? This low value placed on front-channel posts could be a result of an attitude typified by "it doesn't involve me - I can't contribute to that thread". For example, what could I (from Virginia) contribute to a post about a P'Wiser from New Hampshire taking a business trip to Oregon and having a spare day to paddle? Answer: three things.... 1. Even when the post doesn't involve me I see value in it and therefore benefit from it. Reading those posts helps me create a sense of personality for those involved, which helps me get to know them a bit better and fosters a "community" spirit rather than just a discussion board. 2. I may not live in Oregon, but perhaps I did a few years ago, or still have family there. Maybe I have a high level of local knowledge - I'm just not "there" at the moment. Maybe I can help by offering my siblings boat, my parents lawn for tenting, my cousin as a shuttle, a vacation cottage or a parcel of land with water access. Maybe a second P'Wiser will also be travelling to the same city and the two could "hook-up". Those opportunities may be missed with data and back-channel discussions. Posts provide opportunities that raw data does not. 3. The thread may spark an idea or interest in a future trip for anybody on P'Wise. I, for one, have done internet searches on places that I've heard mentioned on P'Wise posts. Haven't you? I also fear for the newbies who join the board. If they see the posts, they'll understand that it's not only accepted, but encouraged and frequent, to "hook up" with other P'Wisers. But, if it's never visible because everyone is using the database and having their "travel" discussions back-channel, the newbies may get the sense that this board is "on line" relationships only, which certainly isn't the case. That takes some of the human element out of the community. You may be thinking to yourself "I'm still going to make the post, I just want the database as well". If that's the case, is the work involved in building it, maintaining it, and getting people to use it, worth the effort of having it, when it's not "needed"? Quick comment on lurkers (I wish that didn't sound as negative as it sometimes does). If a lurker doesn't want to actively participate in discussions, what are the odds that they want to hook-up with another P'Wiser? I don't know, but I can say that I've hooked-up with a lurker who responded to a post back-channel. But, if they are lurking, do you think they'll stick their info on the database? Without the human interaction, I would have missed that opportunity. How about a few lurkers commenting on that opinion? Once more, I'm not opposing the idea. I'll support the outcome, but I'm a little fearful of replacing part of the human interaction of the "community" with data. But, I may be missing the point, and thus my question... what am I missing here? How is a spreadsheet better than human interaction? How will you "really" use it and how will it change your habits and the pseronality of Paddlewise? If it's a neat way to find out who lives in a particular location, why not post the question "anybody live in or near 'xxxxxxx'?" I'm probably just a little confused and a little concerned about any unexpected and unintended impacts on this community. I've completely forgotten who made the original post and what the request was actually for. Perhaps someone who still has it could restate what started the discussion, and let us evaluate whether or not we've got the right solution, or if we've suffered from a case of "scope creep". And as always, if anybody finds themselves coming to southeastern Virginia, contact me. I hope to have a second boat by the end of summer. Rick "resident party poop" Sylvia - Poquoson, VA PS - Too bad I'm not paid by the word! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rick said: ...I've completely forgotten who made the original post... I believe I was the culprit, by extending an invitation to anyone who might be coming to Alaska this summer to paddle, to contact me. My only thought on the dbase -v- pw list is this...and I guess it would apply to lurkers mostly. Maybe I'm not the only one, but... 1) If I see a thread with a subject heading that doesn't capture my interest, I delete it. 2) I don't always see or have time to read all the threads. 3) If I have a last minute travel plan made, I may not have time to submit a request, and then wait for a response. My thought is that the main advantage to a list -v- posted message in the thread would pertain to #3 above. It may take someone several days to respond to a request...and by then one may have already left, not having the opportunity to have seen the response. Maybe it is pie in the sky; and yes, it would take individual accountability to ensure the data (address, phone, etc.) were current: but then those that volunteer to be on the list would seem to me to also be the ones to make sure their info was correct. The only true way to know is to try it...otherwise it is all supposition :) Scott Simpson Anchorage Alaska "There is always one more thing you can do to influence any situation" Lt. Gen Harold Moore, USA (Ret) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday, April 12, 2002, at 12:12:13 PM PST, Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com wrote: > We've all seen posts that start with something like "I'll be > travelling to .......". But now, we're talking about replacing those > posts with data in the form of some sort of spreadsheet, right? Is > the data thought to be better, faster, or more reliable than the > human interaction of the posts? I'd say no. It's potentially > out-of-date the minute you publish it, and many folks won't even > bother to fill it out. You made some good points Rick. I would like to add a bit to the idea of questioning the publicly posted database/spreadsheet idea... Internet communications (email, instant messages, web sites, etc.) are wonderful. They are also, without reasonable measures taken to protect one's privacy, a treasure trove for identity thieves, stalkers, etc. Anything I write to a list like PW, I write in clear text. Sending clear text over the Internet is equivalent to sending multiple copies of postcards. Anything posted in clear text to a publicly available web site is also about as private as a mass mailed postcard. Anything of a more personal nature - my exact street address, my phone numbers, etc. - I send via the Internet *only* if they're encrypted (I use PGP/GnuPG for email/text/file encryption). How detailed is the information destined for this proposed public database expected to be? Anything more than an email address can compromise privacy - and all our email addresses are already available to each other through our message list posts anyway. Because of the nature of the Internet, it really doesn't matter if I "trust" the person I'm sending my phone number to - because if it's in clear text, the information is available to any number of people I don't know. For this reason of privacy (which *can* affect one's personal security as well), I provide a way for people - via the mailto in my signature - to obtain my PGP public key. With that - and with PGP or GnuPG installed on their computer - we can exchange encrypted email. This public mail list serves a great purpose for "postcard" type of information exchange. For more personal communications, I prefer back channel email. For truly personal information exchange (street address, etc.), I prefer only encrypted back channel email. Therefore - I would be one of the PW'ers who would *not* put my private contact information on any public database. If anyone is actually interested in learning more about email/file encryption, I've created a message that you can obtain via my auto-responder to help you get started with PGP or GnuPG. Just click on this mailto and send the resulting email: mailto:willkayakforfood_at_gmx.net?subject=PGP_Links (Since the auto-responder is part of my email client, and I don't keep my computer on all the time, if there's a delay, it's because my computer is off. The message will be sent the next time it's on again.) Melissa -- PGP public keys: mailto:pgp_keys_at_gmx.co.uk?subject=0x46C29887&Body=Please%20send%20keys *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> > P'Wisers, the following is intended to be constructive and helpful..... > hope it reads that way. If not, tell me to go back to sleep :-) I agree with you, Rick. I think I'd have a problem with me being in a database that needs to be secure. If a public request for info is made on this forum, I have the option of responding or not and no one will have an expectation of my welcoming them just because my name is on a list. While there are many on this list who would be welcome chez moi, there is the possibility of someone of dubious character getting their hands on such a list and exploiting it and me. My $0.02 Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 05:03 PM 4/12/02 -0400, Michael Daly wrote: >From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> > >> P'Wisers, the following is intended to be constructive and helpful..... >> hope it reads that way. If not, tell me to go back to sleep :-) > >I agree with you, Rick. I think I'd have a problem with me being >in a database that needs to be secure. If a public request for >info is made on this forum, I have the option of responding or >not and no one will have an expectation of my welcoming them >just because my name is on a list. While there are many on this >list who would be welcome chez moi, there is the possibility of >someone of dubious character getting their hands on such a list >and exploiting it and me. Banks have been using databases for account information for years. Several people have expressed concerns about privacy/security of the information which we're trying to capture. As is the case with most systems like this it's just a matter of programming/design to solve the problem. Although what we're talking about is a web assessible database there are numerous ways to restrict access to the entire database or even parts of it. The first thing I thought of was to require some kind of registration method just to access the site. That means that everyone would have to type in an email address and password to get in but it would eliminate casual browsing by non-paddlewisers. Addresses and phone numbers don't necessarily need to be kept in the database. If one does a search, on say Corpus Christi I might return the names and email address of a couple of paddlers. The user could then just click on the email address to send email back channel, and if the person in the database chooses to do so, they can provide phone numbers or addresses back channel as well. The other alternative would be to maintain the address/phone numbers in the database behind a secure port, that can be unlocked if the owner of the information provides a key to someone requesting it. In any case, the default behavior could be set up such that only names and email addresses could be accessed by people that have registered. One other possibility would be to restrict access to the database to those which have also volunteered to be tier 1,2 or 3 paddlers. I certainly understand Rick's concerns about replacing the community aspect of paddlewise with the database and I'm not sure if I have an answer for that one. As some of you know I have written a kayak statistics database that I've had running for a couple of years and have an extensive list of links on a personal paddling page. I get requests very frequently from outfitters and other vendors to add their site to my list. I've thought about creating an "outfitters" database and a "paddling locations" database as well. Maybe just adding a search feature that allows searching by location to the who's who list might be all that is needed for the "contacts" database. And thanks to Nick for offering to host the system. I''m not much of a perl programmer but I have had some interest in PHP even though were pretty much a Java shop at work. I also have worked on several open source projects which have had people from all over the world contributing code. I could set up a CVS repository if it turns out that several people might be interested in contributing. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
As a primary lurker I like the ablitity to ask for paddle site advice. Rick hit the nail on the head with the dream of someday paddling a certain area brought to my attension by another paddlewise queery. I recently asked about paddles in the Gainesville/Jacksonville area and received three good responses that lead to a trip with Bruce McC of Whole Earth Outfitters who has contributed to this list in the past and "that" helped me decide on using his business. The data base would be a good suppliment but I hope it would not replace the way things are on paddlewise. I would be willing to house, paddle, or share info with any p'wiser coming to Colorado. whether it is from a direct request or from a secure data base. thanks Mark Colorado Springs, CO Not much water but the view is great. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
What Rick has discussed here I think is very relevent, I am some what of a lurker and a long way removed from most people on the list, can't get much further away than little old Tas. I enjoy reading about where people are going and when and how people meet. I started reading this whole thread thinking what a great idea, but then thought as to what I would be able to put my self in as. I also will asume that most of us are in the same boat (or should that read kayak) in that our circumstances can change very quickly, I know mine can and do. Tommorrow I may be in a tier 3 situation, next week I may not be able to offer anything. To be totally honest with myself and every one else I could not put myself on this *data base* because of these reasons. A quick look around will show you hundreds of such data bases that have gotten so out of date that they are worthless. Just a query for PeterO and all, how up to date is the who's who. Is all the info that people have put into the who's who still relevent today? As to offering my services to anyone who ventures to Tasmania, if I am able to do so I will do so with open arms. If I am able to offer advice, boats, lodgings, a hot shower or just a cup of tea it will be done. Seeing Ricks buck-fifty but it costs me four-bucks to do it :-) Cheers Wilky Who is sitting down looking east through the gum trees at the river with a pink sky and doctors orders to do nothing at all for the next three days :-( ----- Original Message ----- From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> Subject: [Paddlewise] Visiting Paddlers - Devils Advocate > P'Wisers, the following is intended to be constructive and helpful..... hope it reads that way. If not, tell me to go back to sleep :-) > (large snip) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wilky wrote >Just a query for PeterO and all, how up to date >is the who's who. Is all the info that people have >put into the who's who still relevent today? Good question Wilky, Once every few months I put out a request for new entries and updates and then notify the Paddlewise list of the changes. As you would see on each occasion there are typically about four new entries and one or two updates. So no the Who's Who list is not very up to date. But I don't like to remind people too frequently as it might be irritating. On the other hand I'm not sure that it contains time critical information so maybe it doesn't need to be updated very often. Bill Leonhardt made a good observation to include posting dates which I have started to do but there have only been about three requests since he asked. Someone suggested the Who's Who list as a way for Paddlewisers to get to know each other, there was a concensus that it was a good idea and a volunteer was needed so I offered to do the data entry. Happy to continue or remove it or remind people that they can use it more frequently. If there's a clear concensus I'll go with it. What do people think Is it worth keeping? Would you like more frequent reminders? Should it disappear? or be started over again from a blank sheet? All the best, PeterO Sydney Australia. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> From: "PeterO" <rebyl_kayak_at_iprimus.com.au> YES! > Someone suggested the Who's Who list as a way for Paddlewisers to get to > know each other, there was a concensus that it was a good idea and a > volunteer was needed so I offered to do the data entry. Happy to continue or > remove it or remind people that they can use it more frequently. If there's > a clear concensus I'll go with it. I think it is very valuable, one of the best sections on the PW website and genuinely appreciate your volunteering to do the work. I'll bet there are many times when folks refer back to it to jog their memory on who just submitted that trip report, boat modification, hypothermia data, other interests, flare-shot-in-the-bathtub, etc. The entries are fun to read and learn more about who we are. Some folks have to leave the list for a year or two for various reasons (mostly moving) and return. I think the Who's Who section is like a "Welcome Home" banner. Same for those intereseted in paddling that just discovered the PaddleWise community. Thanks for maintaining it for PaddleWise, Peter :-) For those who haven't yet discovered and checked out this gem, go to http://www.paddlewise.net/whoswho/ Cheers, Jackie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jackie wrote: - >YES! SNIP >I'll bet there are many times when folks refer back to it to jog >their memory on who just submitted that trip report, boat modification, >hypothermia data, other interests, flare-shot-in-the-bathtub, etc. >The entries are fun to read and learn more about who we are. Some >folks have to leave the list for a year or two for various reasons >(mostly moving) and return. I think the Who's Who section is >like a "Welcome Home" banner. Same for those intereseted in >paddling that just discovered the PaddleWise community. G'Day Jackie and Paddlewise, Thanks Jackie for all the kind words, I couldn't have described the Who's Who list better. Its very encouraging to know that people get benefit from it. One interesting comment was from someone who didn't know why he liked it he just did! I've received quite a number of back channel messages with updates and kind remarks and basically the message is unanimous: - keep the Who's Who List, remind Paddlewisers occasionally that its there and don't worry too much if entries are a bit old. Hope people don't mind if I take a day or two to reply. Its worth noting that the idea was originated by someone before my time who created a "Who We Are" list. Remnants of this are still visible in the Who's Who list. But I still don't know how the "Who We Are" list got started. Putting in the data is the straightforward part of the job. The hard part was at the begining when Jackie gave heaps of help in setting up a system and providing very good advice. Likewise Sandy who had the inspired idea to include bio's, without which the list would be pretty boring. But Jackie, what was the flare-shot-in-the-bathtub story?? :~) All the best, PeterO Sydney, Australia http://www.paddlewise.net/whoswho/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Definitely keep it!!! I think adding some demographic information would be of use, and possibly that would be the place to indicate (if people feel like doing so) whether and to what degree they are willing to be contacted by traveling PWers. Incidentally - I just looked at our listing - Bob's and mine - for the first time probably since it was posted, and it's way out of date. Just about nothing on it is accurate anymore. Should I send you e-mail with the up-to-date information? . Joan Happy to continue or > remove it or remind people that they can use it more frequently. If there's > a clear concensus I'll go with it. > > What do people think Is it worth keeping? > Would you like more frequent reminders? > Should it disappear? > or be started over again from a blank sheet? > > All the best, PeterO > Sydney Australia. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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