Well, Spring has finally Sprung here in the PNW (I think, the sun/rain/snow/hail day a couple of weeks ago really confused my rhodies....), and it's time for me to complete my kayak shopping experience. This has been a great, extended fact-finding mission - I think we're at the year-and-a-half mark. (Work somehow keeps getting in the way....) Anyway, a little background before I solicit the audience for participation. Boat characteristics: glass (kevlar?) around 16', will be used primarily for gunkholing, maybe surfing the occasional windwave or powerboat wake, perhaps the occasional overnighter (gear load not essential, come from a backpacking background), interested in nimbleness and quickness (think sports car), no rudder, retractable skeg ok, good tracking but not too stiff, good construction My characteristics (as they relate to paddling!): on the smaller side (5' 9", 160lbs), novice, athletic, not intimidated by low initial stability, looking for something I can "grow into" but still enjoy on the way there, will be paddling in PNW (Puget Sound, San Juans, etc), likely paddling with empty load (boats which require 190+ lbs to perform well won't suit me nicely) I've tried out many boats, but as a novice paddler they somewhat begin to feel the same after awhile (at least the ones that are similar in size and fit). Did the West Coast SK Symposium last Fall and tried just about every non-ruddered (and a couple of ruddered) boat on the beach. Must have been tiring - by the last boat my notes are something like "ehhh"! As a result, I think I've narrowed it down to a very short list (feel free to suggest off-list boats if you want), but haven't been able to test them all side-by-side (unfortunately). Also, I know my skills are nowhere near deep enough to really get even half of their characteristics out of these boats, so that's why I'm soliciting opinions. From previous review threads and boat design threads, I fully realize that that's all these will be - opinions, and likely biased towards what you like. That's ok, bring it on! :^) Especially interested in direct comparisons if you can make those - even better if you've paddled two or more of these boats for a long length of time (they've all been on the market for awhile). Also on the opinions - outfitting advice is wanted too! If the deck rigging is inadequate, skeg control annoying, hatches/bulkheads cause problems, etc I want to hear about it! Finally, since one of the boats is a Mariner - Matt, please feel free to send me your comments back-channel if you'd prefer. I've been to your shop many times over the past year (you might even remember me - my wife and I tried out almost every boat you've got in the back last Fall. BTW, she loves the Coaster and we'll at least be getting one of those. Fits her great!) but haven't solicited your opinion on these other specific models yet. It's a long way from Vashon to Lake Union! Boats, in order of perceived preference (with notes) 1a. Mariner Express - like this boat a lot, but seem to remember feeling "loose" in the cockpit. need to sit in one again. really liked the quickness of stop to go (felt light, glided well when stop paddling), turned well with my poor attempts at carving, reportedly tracks well. (Tried to get into the Elan, but was too tight. Another reason I think I may be mis-remembering about the fit of the Express.) 1b. Eddyline Nighthawk 16 (in modulus) - first boat I tried at symposium, seemed to fit well and felt "light" and maneuverable. best liked at symposium (no Mariner presence), but didn't like it as much at the end of the day (after trying all the other boats). Knucklebuster for skeg control? are rubber hatches good? 2. Impex Montauk - seemed very similar to Nighthawk, but perhaps less build quality? unsure about hatch system, toggles padeyes are screwed in 3. Kajak Sport Viking - tried this in comparison to Necky boats and some Boreal, liked it better then, but not as much during symposium. recessed fitting for skeg control seems good. Notes on some other boats I didn't like so much: CD Slipstream - felt too unstable CD Caribous S - too stiff tracking Boreal Ellesmere - too unstable, especially when at rest (V hull wanted to cock to one side constantly), poor back support Heard good things about but haven't tried: NDK Romany 16 VCP Avocet (not sure if FG available) Sorry this became so long, I couldn't figure out how to shorten it up. Thanks VERY much for any and all input! --Jason Pringle Vashon, WA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Mr Tex" <aka_tex_at_hotmail.com> > 1a. Mariner Express - like this boat a lot, but seem to remember feeling > "loose" in the cockpit. need to sit in one again. Don't forget that "loose" can be fixed with some outfitting. A little padding in the right spot can match a paddler to a good kayak. > Boreal Ellesmere - too unstable, especially when at rest (V hull wanted to > cock to one side constantly), poor back support I own one and love it, so allow me to stick up for it. This kayak has lots of stability - secondary. It has little initial stability, though. It doesn't have much of a V, but rather a fairly rounded hull. This supposedly gives it a little extra speed at the expense of initial stability. It certainly takes getting used to and is often not recommended for beginners as a result. The most disconcerting feeling is coming out of rough stuff into a calm bay. You go from feeling solid and stable in the waves to feeling slightly tippy in the calm. If you sit still, the kayak will sit straight. If it's cocking to one side, it's you, not the kayak. The secondary is solid without being excessive - to me, they got it just right! The more I paddle it and test other kayaks, the more I like it. The back support is a personal taste thing to me - I like it, low and comfy. The seat is the most comfortable I've ever used. YMMV Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 02:29 PM 5/23/02 -0400, Michael Daly wrote: >From: "Mr Tex" <aka_tex_at_hotmail.com> > > > 1a. Mariner Express - like this boat a lot, but seem to remember feeling > > "loose" in the cockpit. need to sit in one again. > >Don't forget that "loose" can be fixed with some outfitting. A little padding >in the right spot can match a paddler to a good kayak. That's true to a point. A kayak with a keyhole cockpit which has molded in fiberglass "knee hooks" can be troublesome. I've found that some of them are just cut too wide for my legs. Sitting in it felt like my legs were being pulled apart. The boat was really designed for someone with wider hips. > > Boreal Ellesmere - too unstable, especially when at rest (V hull wanted to > > cock to one side constantly), poor back support That seems to be the nature of a hard chined boat. My Northbay, the Arctic Hawk I've frequently paddled, and other hard chined boats (somehow I don't notice it much in an Anas Acuta) have an initial stability that can best be described as "twitchy". All I can say is that you get used to it. >I own one and love it, so allow me to stick up for it. This kayak has lots >of stability - secondary. It has little initial stability, though. It >doesn't have much of a V, but rather a fairly rounded hull. That's what I thought. Boreal Designs describes the design as having hard chines and a shallow arch. It's not a "V" hull. You won't see a noticable keel line under the cockpit. The hull shape is actually similar to the Foster Rowe boats. In this case, I wouldn't describe the initial stability on the Ellsemere as "twitchy". It's more "slippery" or "greasy". In any case, when I demo'd one I didn't find it particularly uncomfortable. It's certainly a lot more stable than a Slipstream or Foster Rowe Rumour. >The secondary is solid without being excessive - to me, they got it just >right! >The more I paddle it and test other kayaks, the more I like it. The back >support >is a personal taste thing to me - I like it, low and comfy. The seat is >the most >comfortable I've ever used. YMMV A few people of lauded the seat on the Ellsemere. I suppose that it would be very comfortable if you have the right size hips and butt for it. It's cut very aggressively with a raised portion in the middle. Someone with very wide or narrow hips might find it uncomfortable. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:42 PM 5/22/02 -0700, Mr Tex wrote: >Well, Spring has finally Sprung here in the PNW (I think, the >sun/rain/snow/hail day a couple of weeks ago really confused my rhodies....), >and it's time for me to complete my kayak shopping experience. This has been >a great, extended fact-finding mission - I think we're at the year-and-a-half >mark. (Work somehow keeps getting in the way....) I love these kinds of threads. >Anyway, a little background before I solicit the audience for participation. > > >Boat characteristics: > > >glass (kevlar?) around 16', will be used primarily for gunkholing, maybe >surfing the occasional windwave or powerboat wake, perhaps the occasional >overnighter (gear load not essential, come from a backpacking background), >interested in nimbleness and quickness (think sports car), no rudder, >retractable skeg ok, good tracking but not too stiff, good construction Is 16' your limit? There are few 17' boats out there that are pretty nimble. >My characteristics (as they relate to paddling!): > >on the smaller side (5' 9", 160lbs), novice, athletic, not intimidated by low >initial stability, looking for something I can "grow into" but still enjoy on >the way there, will be paddling in PNW (Puget Sound, San Juans, etc), likely >paddling with empty load (boats which require 190+ lbs to perform well won't >suit me nicely) > >Boats, in order of perceived preference (with notes) > > >1a. Mariner Express - like this boat a lot, but seem to remember feeling >"loose" in the cockpit. need to sit in one again. really liked the quickness >of stop to go (felt light, glided well when stop paddling), turned well with >my poor attempts at carving, reportedly tracks well. (Tried to get into the >Elan, but was too tight. Another reason I think I may be mis-remembering >about the fit of the Express.) I've never paddled a Mariner boat (I think I've only seen one here on the East Coast) so I can't comment on them. >1b. Eddyline Nighthawk 16 (in modulus) - first boat I tried at symposium, >seemed to fit well and felt "light" and maneuverable. best liked at symposium >(no Mariner presence), but didn't like it as much at the end of the day (after >trying all the other boats). Knucklebuster for skeg control? are rubber >hatches good? I rented a Nighthawk for a day when I was in Florida in December. I liked it quite a bit. It seemed quite nimble, tracked reasonably well, and just felt really comfortable when it was on edge. It reminded me quite a bit of a Necky Looksha. I didn't have a problem with the skeg controls and I've generally found rubber hatches to be quite good. If anything they seal so well that you have to be careful about keeping the air pressure equalized or there is a possibility of imploding a bulkhead (that's usually solved with a pin hole in the bulkhead). >2. Impex Montauk - seemed very similar to Nighthawk, but perhaps less build >quality? unsure about hatch system, toggles padeyes are screwed in Haven't paddled a Montauk. I paddled an Impex Serenity though and was pretty impressed with their overall construction. >3. Kajak Sport Viking - tried this in comparison to Necky boats and some >Boreal, liked it better then, but not as much during symposium. recessed >fitting for skeg control seems good. The Viking is definitely on my list of boats to try out. A woman that posts here (Marinel (sp?)) bought one awhile back. I think I've only seen her post once since she bought it if that means anything. >Notes on some other boats I didn't like so much: > > >CD Slipstream - felt too unstable I don't mind a boat that has low initial stability if I feel confident in it's secondary. The Slipstream, to me, felt unnecessarily initially unstable. The Foster Rowe Rumour felt like it has even less initial stability but I felt more comfortable with it's secondary stability. >CD Caribous S - too stiff tracking Are you sure the skeg wasn't down? To be fair, the Caribou *is* 17'8" long so it very well would feel a lot stiffer tracking than a 16' boat. >Heard good things about but haven't tried: > > >NDK Romany 16 >VCP Avocet (not sure if FG available) For a 16' touring kayak it's hard to beat either of these. The *only* reservation about the Romany I have is that it feels kinda sluggish to me. The VCP Avocet is definitely available in glass. I used one for a class a couple of seasons ago and really liked it. Somehow it feels "bigger" than a 16' boat. Have you tried a Seaward Luna? It's a really fun boat. The Endeavor is also really nice and quite nimble for a 17'6" boat. Another favorite 16 footer is the Dagger Meridian. Although I've never tried one. A P&H Vela might be worth looking at. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I don't think you mentioned the Current Design Gulfstream. I have not owned one, but I have a couple buddies who owned this boat and were very happy with it. It is very close to the description you listed below, and it has a handy day-hatch just behind the cockpit. Good luck in your search, I know it is difficult with so many great choices and so little opportunity to really get to know the product before you plunk down a couple $-grand. In a message dated 5/23/02 3:50:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, aka_tex_at_hotmail.com writes: > Boat characteristics: > > > glass (kevlar?) around 16', will be used primarily for gunkholing, maybe > surfing the occasional windwave or powerboat wake, perhaps the occasional > overnighter (gear load not essential, come from a backpacking background), > interested in nimbleness and quickness (think sports car), no rudder, > retractable skeg ok, good tracking but not too stiff, good construction > > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
John wrote: > >Is 16' your limit? There are few 17' boats out there that are pretty >nimble. > I think so, but mainly because it seems all the 17' boats I've been in behaved like they were sitting well above their designed waterlines (having been designed for more than my 160lbs as their nominal load). I suppose a narrow 17'+ boat could work in this regard, but then the really narrow ones get a bit squirrelly from what I've read... >>CD Slipstream - felt too unstable > >I don't mind a boat that has low initial stability if I feel confident in >it's secondary. The Slipstream, to me, felt unnecessarily initially >unstable. The Foster Rowe Rumour felt like it has even less initial >stability but I felt more comfortable with it's secondary stability. > That seemed to be my experience with the Slipstream as well. When I got into each boat I did the "wiggle hips" thing, trying to get a quick feel for how the boat "sat in the water". The Slipstream was the only one where I lost my balance enough to dunk my hand in the water to steady me (a quite ineffective reactionary "low brace" when done without a paddle! - this was in less than 1' of water just off the beach, before I paddled out). I'm sure that colored my impression of the boat! > >>CD Caribous S - too stiff tracking > >Are you sure the skeg wasn't down? To be fair, the Caribou *is* 17'8" long >so it very well would feel a lot stiffer tracking than a 16' boat. > When doing a forward sweep with the boat flat, moving along at a leisurely pace, I could _barely_ perceive a difference in turning with the skeg up or down (like you might do for slight course corrections, not actual turns). Edging obviously helped, but it struck me as a boat that requires much more aggressive edging to be as nimble as say the Nighthawk. Not that there's anything wrong with that, just not what I'm looking for (presently :^) ). >>NDK Romany 16 >>VCP Avocet (not sure if FG available) > >For a 16' touring kayak it's hard to beat either of these. The *only* >reservation about the Romany I have is that it feels kinda sluggish to >me. The VCP Avocet is definitely available in glass. I used one for a >class a couple of seasons ago and really liked it. Somehow it feels >"bigger" than a 16' boat. Would the Romany be "sluggish" as you describe due to its weight? I've heard that they're fairly heavy due to stout layups. _________________________________________________________________ Join the world^Òs largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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