. How and where and in what do you store your food while camping? 2. What are the less expensive alternatives to commercial bear bags, yet are still effective? 3. Anyone make their own bear bag and care to share the instructions? Rick - Poquoson, VA I've taken 2 16-day trips in the boundary waters and one 8 day solo trip. We rented packs that had a basket liner for our food. We were supposed to hang it to the park specifications - I think at least 10' off the ground and 4' on either side and 4' below a branch. But as to the bag itself, anything will work. I used a day pack on my solo trip and could carry my regular pack on my back and wear the day pack backwards on my chest for portaging. The last trip was just after most of the trees in the are had been blown down and there were no places to hang our bag. We kept a clean camp and carried the food bag, sometimes by canoe, several hundred feet away. Sometimes we even had a small island nearby. We never had any problems. There are canisters for carrying food in bear country but I think they would be very difficult to pack in a kayak. When kayak camping, I use a duffle bag lined with a heavy plastic bag - I buy the garbage compressor ones - for my food. I would just hang this, first making sure that I had reinforced the straps, or I would take a little hammock and tie the food up in that. I also have bought the nylon net bags that target has for shopping and then took them to a upholstery shop and had nylon straps sewn around the edges and for the handles - the original was cotton and not strong. I use them to haul groceries and other packages up the stairs to my condo and also load them with camping gear to make it easier to set up camp. They would be strong enough to hang your food in as well and only take up about 2 fists of space when loose in the kayak. You are most vurrnable to losing your food on portages where lots of people use them. So if you have to portage with 2 loads like I do, you have to carry your food pack all the time as the bears are trained to wait for you to set it down. But in remote areas, using dried foods, and storing the pack well away from the camp and the shore will provide enough safety. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have two deck bags that I got primarily for kayaking but that also double very nicely as bear bags. Usually you need just one per person. I think they are medium sized. The waterproof feature has the added advantage of minimizing scent when the bag is properly closed. Any strong bag will work just as well, if you can devise a point of attachment. Just keep in mind that it will hang in the elements and tempt all kinds of small creatures. My thin line (1/8"(?)/50 feet) also doubles as the bear line itself. Tie a monkey's paw knot for throwing the line (over a high branch far away from the tent) or wrap the line around a carabiner many times before throwing. Although not difficult to do, this is one of those elementary camping skills that repays a little practice. I was in the Apostle Islands over the weekend, which hosts a number of black bears and where the more luxurious camp sites feature food lockers and enclosed latrines. I wondered if any kayaker had ever stashed food in his kayak only to find the boat trashed the next day. TFJ -------------------- 1. How and where and in what do you store your food while camping? 2. What are the less expensive alternatives to commercial bear bags, yet are still effective? 3. Anyone make their own bear bag and care to share the instructions? Rick - Poquoson, VA ------------------------------------------ The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential, and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any further disclosure or use, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this message or any attachment is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I've been in groups that have used the Ursack with great results, though mostly this has been backpacking. It's handy because you don't have to be that meticulous when hanging the bag, and there are a number of locations where the trees don't cooperate...and there are no cliffs to hang food over, etc. The sack packs up and stows much easier than the cylinders, too. I am not affiliated with the company, make no specific claims for product, nor am I offering a blanket endorsement. http://www.ursack.com/home.htm -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/28/2002 11:52:27 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com writes: > 1. How and where and in what do you store your food while camping? > > 2. What are the less expensive alternatives to commercial bear bags, yet > are still effective? > > 3. Anyone make their own bear bag and care to share the instructions? You might want to pick up a copy of Steven Hererro's, Bear Attacks: Their Cause and Avoidance. It details excellent information on camping in bear country. That said, I would never store food in a kayak unless I was certain that no bears (black or brown) frequented the area. In black bear country, I usually hang it by a center mounted carabiner with 2 ea 50 ft pieces of line. I throw it over a branch and tie it individually to separate trees. Black bears are known to have defeated all forms of food hanging, so in areas where they are protected the bear cans come along. Recently, Backpacker Magazine tested the kevlar bear bag. The results were predictable: One zoo grizzly left it alone after not finding his way into it, but a second one shredded it. I use the Garcia Machine Works bear can. These are widely used by the National Park Service in Alaska and Washington. Heavy and spendy at $85.00 but one 8.5 x 12.5 inch can should last 5 days for dehydrated food conneisseur! The GMW cans are not waterproof. Use a garbage bag or dry bag for that function or make sure your food is adequately protected. There are others on the market so look around. Bear can manufacturers have figured out that a large can that is too wide to bite over cannot be bitten through. Nor can a high strength can be smashed. Lastly, all surfaces are flush so that claws have nothing to penetrate. Homemade cans I'm sure have worked but... Whatever scented products you bring into bear country need to be stored together and out of reach of bears. That includes toiletries, chapstick, suncream, that powerbar wrapper in your pfd's left pocket, The empty gatorade bottles in your cockpit, all of it. It's not the fear of bears that prompts my precautions but the fear of being away from it all with a devoured food supply. Bears habituated to human food will inevitably contact humans, possibly harrass or hurt them and will get shot by vigilant campers or the authorities. As they say, a fed bear is a dead bear. Read up on it and you'll find the best solution for you. Racoons are worse pests than bears, so consider them in your food defence preparations. Good luck! Rob G's humble opinion *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At Tuesday, 28 May 2002, <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> wrote: >1. How and where and in what do you store your food while camping? I'll second the opinion for the bear canister. I've been using one on longer trips for several years now. The only caveat being you need a large rear hatch to get it in. When full it makes a nice little balast container. One thing with a bear canister. As you eat things out of it, it doesn't get any smaller. But you can fill it with other stuff you acquire along the way. It doesn't keep the critters from trying, mine has little teeth marks all along the edge. I prefer carrying food in one because the hassle of hanging is eliminated (I was tired of mosquitos trying to eat me alive while looking for suitable trees), and you can carry fragile items like tomatos and eggs with out worrying about them breaking. Oh, it makes for a nice little table or ottoman as well. So, not the perfect solution, but one that will work for some. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'd far rather use an Ursack (haven't yet) than a cylinder. I'd far rather bears had not been educated by generations of careless campers so I could use a plain old nylon sack too. The cylinders are mandated in some areas and I just hate that, and generally end up breaking the law for one reason or another. But in the defense, those expensive, bulky cans are about as close as you can get to bear proof, and clean up quickly when covered with a quart of bear spit. Hopefully you can field clean Ursacks sufficiently to get rid of the smell. I do intend to try one though. I've never in all my years of setting up camps lost my personal food to a bear. I've always been real careful, but I have had one, in Camp 4 (aka Sunnyside) in Yosemite, drink all my beer one night. One can at a time: I watched the whole show, and he WOULD NOT be budged until they were all gone. Kevin Ursack It's handy because you don't have to be that meticulous when hanging the bag, and there are a number of locations where the trees don't cooperate...and there are no cliffs to hang food over, etc. The sack packs up and stows much easier than the cylinders, too. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Kevin, I like to hear more about your beer-drinking baer. How did he open the cans and how did he feel/act after -how many- beers?? Heike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> wrote: > Hi all. The areas that I will be camping in over the next couple years have some Black Bears, > but not in large numbers. [snip] I could buy a commercial bear bag and do the "hang > it from a tree" routine, but I'm not sure if that is necessary. Rick, the nature of your question suggests that you will not be in "hard core" black bear country. Nonetheless, hanging your food is a very good idea. If there are bears around, it is your moral duty to protect your food -- mainly so it is not your food stash that habituates a bear to thinking of people food as bear food. Others have detailed various systems for hanging food. When you hang food, remember to put it at least 15 feet up (ground to bottom of bag) and 10 feet out from a tree trunk. If there are no adequate trees where you plan to camp, then you'll have to spring for the bear canisters (spendy). I have always used ordinary drybags for hanging food, and evolved to the two-line system: One strung between two trees (over limbs, secured to the ground at either end -- easy to retrieve), with a pulley secured to the center of the open section. The second line carries the food. It goes through the pulley BEFORE you finish stringing up the first line. If your food stash is less than 30-50 lbs in weight, the single pulley is enough. If it is much more than that, attach another pulley to the food bag, rigging the second line to run through both pulleys. This gives a mechanical advantage of two. Other variations with double pulleys can increase this, but are not usually worth the trouble. Good luck. Unless the bears are already habituated to seeking people food, you should not be harassed. I've traveled in "dumb bear" country a lot over the past 35 years, and never had a problem. In smart bear territory, bear canisters would be mandated, I think. Note: "dumb bear" = one that has not figured out people food is bear food (yet); smart bear = otherwise -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One observation I have made about bears is they will often investigate the high tide mark of a beach to see if the tide washed in any food. I have seen them work the high tide mark from one end of a beach to another. So try not to leave your boat too close to the high tide mark. The main thing to remember about bears is they find their food mostly through sense of smell, so keeping a clean camp is important. It is also why I never fish on a camping trip. I have had fishermen offer me fresh caught salmon and I have had to say know because the only place I could have out it at that moment was in my lap! Also they are creatures of habit who if they find food in a place , such as a popular camping spot, they will continue to return. This has been a real problem in Glacier Bay uphere in Alaska. Depending what is available I either hang my food up or keep it in my boat. I realize this will spark some debate but I keep all my food sealed in dry bags. I am meticulas about not getting food smells on the outside of the bag and I seal up the hatches on my boat at night. I place the boat about 20 yards from my tent and keep my bear spray and a .357 handy. I have camped a lot in bear territory and have had many a bear in camp and have yet to lose any food or had damage to a boat. Good luck and happy camping Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Bob Carter" <revkayak_at_mtaonline.net> > I place the boat about 20 > yards from my tent and keep my bear spray and a .357 handy. A magnum rifle will work against a bear, but the handgun doesn't have the stopping power - this according to Herrero - unless you're at very close range and can handle the firearm under that level of stress. You'd likely just wound him and that would make things worse. Using it as a noisemaker might be better than attempting to hit him. If I had to choose between the bear spray and a handgun, I'd take the spray. However, you have to contend with both black and grizzly bears, whereas there are only black bears here in the east. At the time Herrero published his book, sprays had not been tested adequately against grizzlies. Canadian national park rangers do carry spray against grizzlies though. The best defence against a bear is to avoid contact - clean campsites are the way to go. Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I second Bob's advise on bears, kayaking and food! The idea of a bear canister that costs $80 is ridiculous to me! The whole notion of bears snooping around is as Bob said, due to smell. If you are careful about your odors, the storage in dry bags makes perfect sense. If they can't smell it, they won't know it's there. I started using dry bags on backpacking trips - I would line my pack with a dry bag and stuff all into it. The premise here being that if I were to find myself upside down in a stream crossing, the bag would serve several purposes; keep everything dry, keep my pack afloat (hopefully me as well). If you have your dbag sealed tight, then inside your boat, with hatches sealed, you have a double water tight container, hence air tight as well. I have been as far away from black bears as 10 feet (while trying to haul a loaded boat up a 30 degree inclined gravel tidal beach, with my back turned); I have had bears roaming my campsite at night while I was sawing logs, and (knock on wood here) have not had any bears disrupt my things or my tent! Yes, Bob's and my opinions will probably stir the air, but that has been our experience! Scott Simpson Anchorage Alaska "There is always one more thing you can do to influence any situation" Lt. Gen Harold Moore, USA (Ret) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'll chip in here as another Alaskan who lives and paddles in the heart of brown and black bear territory. We keep our food in dry bags in the kayak at night. We've never had any problems with bears, although they've definitely paid us some nocturnal (yes, your heart can come all the way up your throat!) visits. We're very careful about handling food and disposing of scraps and handling containers and packaging just like the other foodstuffs. Our bears here in SE Alaska tend not to be "smart" (habituated to people) unless they live in town and forage through the garbage cans! I think that if I paddled or camped in areas with more people (and thus more ursine habituation to our bad habits) that I'd opt to use a bear canister. Dave Seng Juneau, Alaska *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "David Seng" <daveseng_at_acsalaska.net> > Our bears here in SE Alaska tend not to be "smart" (habituated to > people) unless they live in town and forage through the garbage cans! I > think that if I paddled or camped in areas with more people (and thus > more ursine habituation to our bad habits) that I'd opt to use a bear > canister. I think this is a key distinction. Many folks who criticize this or that approach to bears usually don't consider the subtle difference between bears that are familiar with humans and those that are not. What you can get away with in true wilderness won't necessarily work in areas where wilderness and cottages are mixed. I've been nose-to-nose with a black bear in Jasper NP and seen lots of bears out west - they tend to be afraid of people. I've only seen one bear in Ontario, right outside Killbear Provincial Park, in the heart of decent kayaking territory. He was foraging in the town dump! These bears are not afraid of people in quite the same way and I'm more afraid of him. Cliff Jacobsen's approach of leaving food on the ground off the beaten track may work in true wilderness where bears are used to following specific paths looking for natural food, but I bet it wouldn't work in some parks where people are careless and bear problems more common. In the latter case, the bears look all over the campsite for food. By the way, you have to be very careful in assuming that the bear can't smell the food in your gear. While you may be ok on the first day, opening and closing the food bags while preparing meals will tend to transfer the scent to the outside of the bags over time. Bears have lots more nose than you do. If you want to test this, try offering your food bag to the friendly, neighborhood, garbage bag destroying, food crazy dog and see how he reacts. I'm willing to bet that most bear problems are "avoided" by luck rather than skill. They are rare enough that just because it didn't happen doesn't mean it can't or won't happen and doesn't mean that the precautions taken actually worked. Take care! Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hey all, bears are in many places the least of your worries. It's the racoons and other small animals that are going to get your stuff before the bears do. I've had a chipmonk run into camp, grab a candy bar and take off before I could so much as blink much less react. I reacll an article I read awhile ago about ursine smell. Supposedly you cannot effectively mask the smell of food from bears beyond hermetically sealing it and never opening the package. OK, enough about bags. Why don't we discuss some hanging techniques. One things that really helped my hanging was a small sack filled with parachute cord I got specifically for the purpose. You fill the sack with rocks which gives it a great throwing heft. The parachute cord is smooth so won't snag on anything and is very static so doens't stretch much. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 11:33 AM 6/1/2002 +0100, Patrick Maun wrote: >Why don't we discuss some hanging techniques. >One things that really helped my hanging was a small sack filled >with parachute cord I got specifically for the purpose. I know from experience that hanging food in a bag is a is a great way to end up hungry. If they can't get to it, bears will rock the limb and even a very well balanced back will slip down to where they can get it. Why take a chance on having a bear eat your food or rip up your kayak. Bear cannisters are not all that pricey relative to the other kayak gadgetry we gladly purchase, and they sure beat the alternative <grin>. Having led Snake Dike on the back side of Half Dome twice on an empty stomach in the days before bear canisters, I don't go into bear country without them. ********************************************************* John S. March, MD, MPH Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences Duke Child and Family Study Center 718 Rutherford Street Durham, NC 27705 919/416-2404 (P); 919/416-2420 (F) Email: jsmarch_at_acpub.duke.edu Website: http://www2.mc.duke.edu/pcaad "I maintain there is much more wonder in science than in pseudoscience. And in addition, to whatever measure this term has any meaning, science has the additional virtue, and it is not an inconsiderable one, of being true." --Carl Sagan ********************************************************* *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Mike wrote: >A magnum rifle will work against a bear, but the handgun doesn't have the >stopping power - Let me take a moment to expand my orginal comments First I learned from the Tlingits that the best way to handle a bear is to talk to it.This lets the bear know you are there and that you are human. With one exception in the many bears I have encountered this does work. The one exception was a polar bear, but that is a bear of a different color. (ha-ha) Most bears really don't want anything to do with humans and will seek to escape. If a bear is hostile I much prefer the spray which does work on grizzlies. I talked once to a 70 year old woman at Tenekee Springs Alaska whose dog had chased a bear cub, which ran to momma bear, who then chased the dog back to the woman. The woman fired the spray and said the bear went down like it had hit a wall. However on a windy day the spray is useless except that is might flavor you up for the bear! The primary porpose for the pistol is to be used as a noise maker. The sudden loud noise will often change a bear's behavior causing it to stop for a second thinking about hunger and instead thinking about escape. I have never in 15 years of paddling in Alaska had to use a gun because of a bear and I pray I never have too because I love bears and thrill at seeing them! However each year in Alaska we have someone killed by bears. Suprizingly more are killed by black bear than by Griz. The Griz sees you as a rival and attacks to dominate you. Once you are down usually the bear will leave you alone so play dead, very dead. The black bear though sees you as food and attacks to have lunch! Most of the attacks in Alaska have been by starving black bears. The new way of think uphere is that if you are attacked by a griz play dead , if you are attacked by a black bear then fight for you life. If you don't know the difference, stay home. Having said that Will is certainly right in saying... "We cannot specifically predict ursine behavior, nor can we suggest with any certainty that our response to a bear encounter will or won't influence a bear's response to our presence." It is the unpredictable bear that I want to be ready for.... Push come to shove I would use a gun if i had too. Whether the .357 would be enough depends on a lot of factors including luck. I have carried shotguns before loaded with slugs but they weight a lot and take up a lot of room so i prefer the pistol. Oh, I am also a gun control advocate. By the way I fully agree with Mike... >The best defence against a bear is to avoid contact - clean campsites are >the way to go. Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<patrick_at_patrickmaun.com> wrote: > OK, enough about bags. Why don't we discuss some hanging techniques. > One things that really helped my hanging was a small sack filled > with parachute cord I got specifically for the purpose. You fill > the sack with rocks which gives it a great throwing heft. The parachute > cord is smooth so won't snag on anything and is very static so doens't > stretch much. Parachute cord is about 1/8 inch in diameter, and though smooth, is awfully small for yarding heavy stuff over a limb (though OK for most pulley systems). If you use it for hauling food bags, use of a stick or other load spreader to avoid cutting into your hand is advised. Is that what you do, Patrick? The two-pulley, two-line system described in my earlier post has served me well on a couple two-week trips in bear country, hauling a LOT of food up (we take fresh vegies and fruit, but no fresh meat). Sometimes we would string up a "breakfast bag" on light line just over a limb, to facilitate breaking camp in the mnorning, but most of our food went up on the two-line system. One trip, we strung a heavy (1/2 inch, maybe) line between two trees, with pulleys on loops every 4-5 feet. This allowed us to get two weeks of food for six of us up on one system. OK for a camp where you plan to spend some time. In our case, after 4 nights, a crowd of hornets set up station on one end. Three of us got stung before we decided to cut the line instead of untying it. It's still there, on Swan Island, Queen Charlottes, if anybody wants the line. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
From: "Dave Kruger" <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> > The two-pulley, two-line system described in my earlier post has served me well > on a couple two-week trips in bear country, hauling a LOT of food up (we take > fresh vegies and fruit, but no fresh meat). For those that avoid single-use items like pulleys, a couple of carabiners can be used to rig a Z-drag system vertically to pull your food container up. The friction of rope over a carabiner is negligibly higher than using a pulley. For those unfamiliar with the z-drag, instructions here: http://members.rogers.com/michaeldaly2/z_drag_page.htm Mike *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 5/30/2002 10:04:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time, michaeldaly_at_rogers.com writes: > By the way, you have to be very careful in assuming that the bear > can't smell the food in your gear. While you may be ok on the first > day, opening and closing the food bags while preparing meals will > tend to transfer the scent to the outside of the bags over time. > Bears have lots more nose than you do. I wholeheartedly agree and wish to add that only one incident is required to forever turn a bear into a human food lover forever. I respect peoples opinions on bear country camp hygiene, however, if your opinions run across the grain of professionals like Herrero's advice you might be playing fast and loose with other peoples lives, as well as that bear's, that bear's cubs, and so on. Rob G *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At Friday, 31 May 2002, Dave Kruger <dkruger_at_pacifier.com> wrote: >If you use it for hauling food bags, use of a stick or other load spreader to >avoid cutting into your hand is advised. Is that what you do, Patrick? > Good point. I almost always use a bear canister but hang a drybag with cooking clothes and other things that might attract. So the stuff I hang has never been heavy enough to really need serious hauling. Pulley systems are great. Or course, It gets kind of tricky to set one of those up. I have a hard enough time finding a try that I can actually use. Sometimes I give up, throw everything in the woods or under my fly and say to hell with it. I've been lucky so far and I definately wouldn't try this in an area known for camp bears. Has anyone used the aluminum bear canisters that are on the market now? They are really light and narrow enough that they might work in a boat with a smaller hatch. -Patrick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
=0D =0D =0D Has anyone used the aluminum bear canisters that are on the market =0D now? They are really light and narrow enough that they might work =0D in a boat with a smaller hatch. =0D =0D You might make your own canister with a larger diameter pvc pipe with one= threaded end and one with a glued cap. It might not be as bear proof as= the commercial ones, but would keep most critters out. You could get the= best fit for your kayak also. -- MZ [demime 0.92b removed an attachment of type image/gif] *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I use the same system as Dave Kruger when camping in the Boundary Waters, where black bears tend to be more habituated to human food. Had only one bear in camp that I know of in over 40 trips averaging three nights each, and that one didn't get the food pack, though it did take a couple of non-food items I left on the ground. When camping on the Canadian shore of Lake Superior, where bears see fewer humans, I leave food in the kayak. In the Apostle Islands and other places where they are provided, I use food lockers. One advantage of the two-line system Dave described is that you don't need a perfect tree. Two trees about 20 feet apart with branch stubs 15 feet off the ground work just fine. It's important to follow the rules for hanging food: at least 6 feet from the nearest tree trunk, at least 5 feet below the branch it's hung from (if using only a single tree), and at least 10 feet from the ground. Most people who lose hung food violate one or more of these rules. Cliff Jacobson tries to stack the evidence in favor of his method of hiding food on the ground by citing cases where bears got into hung food, but I remember the cases in his article in the old Canoesport Journal all violated the above rules. A friend of mine, Paul Smith, used to be in charge of the Forestry service crews in the western part of the Boundary Waters. These crews, who were frequently out for days at a time, always hung their food, yet Paul could remember only a handful of times they lost any food to bears. The one time Paul tried Cliff's system, a bear found the food. In treeless terrain, where Cliff makes most of his trips, there is no alternative to hiding food on the ground, but where trees are big enough to hang food, I recommend hanging it. The Ursack, which I had never heard of before this thread, looks like it would be extra protection in either case. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
How resistant is the Ursack to chipmunks, squirrels, etc. These are often worse than bears. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave Kruger wrote: >>>>>>Note: "dumb bear" = one that has not figured out people food is bear food (yet); smart bear = otherwise<<<<<< I disagree, I think there are only smart bears that have been protected from humans (and therefore don't fear messing with their food or walking into their cars or camps and helping themselves) and smart bears in the wild that have been hunted by humans. This second group of smart bears, try to avoid being seen by humans and tend to run like hell when they are surprised by one. Either type can smell food that isn't in sealed tin cans or some equally airtight container, my understanding is that a bear's sense of smell is about 10 times better than a dogs. Of course the smart park bears have learned that the tin cans are crunchy on the outside but good on the inside without having to smell them. They have also learned to check the camping cooler first. One of these protected smart bears broke into a couple of my friend's kayaks on Lake Superior one evening. They watched as she messed up the first hatch pretty bad getting into it but then quickly learned the system with the next two hatches so that she only put one eyetooth through the rubber seal as she peeled off the fourth gasket seal with a deft circular motion of the head and then did the same with the inner edge seal (a seal that most humans in my shop have trouble figuring out how to open on their own). Because bears are smart they are unpredictable, just like humans. They don't act just out of primitive instincts but also behave according to the things they have learned (and probably the emotions of the moment too). Matt Broze, (who outran a black bear chasing him down a steep hill when he was only four). That early 50's vintage Yellowstone Park bear gave up the chase and came screeching to a halt when faced with a momma human standing her ground (and wielding a big stick she had hastily chosen to transform from firewood to a club once she saw the situation I was in). www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: "One of these protected smart bears broke into a couple of my friend's kayaks on Lake Superior one evening." Was food inside the compartment or had food been stored there recently? TFJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt Broze wrote: [in response to what I said:] >>>>>>Note: "dumb bear" = one that has not figured out people food is bear food (yet); smart bear = otherwise<<<<<< > I disagree, I think there are only smart bears that have been protected from > humans (and therefore don't fear messing with their food or walking into > their cars or camps and helping themselves) and smart bears in the wild that > have been hunted by humans. This second group of smart bears try to avoid > being seen by humans and tend to run like hell when they are surprised by > one. Probably true much of the time, Matt. Most of my 35 years of time in bear country was where bears could be hunted (WA and OR Cascades). A counterexample: In the Charlottes, inside the Park, where bears are protected from hunting, I have several times had to camp on/near the "bearpath" that bears used on their foraging for intertidal food. Couple times, I have had bears waltz through while we were eating ... and they kept on waltzing, completely ignoring our food, even the time we had the salami out. They avoided us by shifting their routine a little inshore one time, but were otherwise unconcerned. Now and then, a bear at a popular Charlottes camp site will learn that people food is good to eat, and the Parks Canada folks put that site (Benjamin Point) off limits to sea kayakers. One of those sites had such a bear in 1996. I had lunch on that beach in 1998. A young black bear came out of the brush, and munched seaweed no more than 75 yards from us as we (nervously ... and rapidly) munched ours. That bear had no interest in us or our food. Ignored us completely as we packed up and skedaddled. Go figure. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> One of these protected smart bears broke into a couple of my > friend's kayaks on Lake Superior one evening. Where on Lake Superior was that? Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote: > One of these protected smart bears broke into a couple of my > friend's kayaks on Lake Superior one evening. Chuck Holst asked: Where on Lake Superior was that? Not exactly sure but it was on the south shore and I think real early in their attempt to circumnavigate the US by kayak. They started at the western tip of Lake Superior. They were in some sort of a park campground I believe (but I don't think it was the Apostle Islands-a State Park maybe). I had to Express deliver them some new hatch cover gaskets. I think this was around 1994 or 1995. Okay I just called them and asked. I had the dates right but more specifically it was in the Porcupine Wilderness area in 1994. To anticipate the next question. They made it to the East Coast into nearly constant headwinds but Bob's hands were bothering him so badly by then from the daily bruising from the paddle that they were forced to switch over to bicycles for the rest of their circumnavigation of the U.S. Matt Broze www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Sorry to respond so late but I've been away. This incident took place in Camp 4 (aka sunnyside) in Yosemite. We'd been bothered by racoons all night and just slung a few pebbles at them to let them know our need for sleep. Around 12 we heard our otherwise empty packs being broken into. Definitely not a racoon this time, and even fist sized rocks would no dislodge him once he got hold of the beer. This bear must have met a tragic end once the park started to deal with these types. A real pro, he knew his business and I've always avoided the subject of how the bear got the cans open due to credibility issues. 1 can had incisor holes in the side, the remaining 5 were bitten on the top of the can. I swear he'd roll back on his butt & swig it down, then go back for another. The was no food smell on the pack or the beer, so he knew a 6 pack by sight, and what to do. I imagine he felt quite well with 6 big cans of beer in him, and as for his friends, he wasn't about to share his prize Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> This incident took place in Camp 4 (aka sunnyside) in > Yosemite. > > I imagine he felt quite well with 6 big cans of beer in him, Hey Kevin - how did the beer get in your pack? I know you must have been unaware of it, since alcohol is prohibited in a National Park! :-) Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
No, I can say I am of weak and corruptible character, and packed it in with me. Every time I fall from a state of grace I due penance by eating unflavoured rice cakes. OT: I generally avoid Yosemite due to crowds these days but as I recall they, and Yellowstone, both sell beer at the general stores,no? Of course I don't generally go to those either as their prices are so high, and selection so bad; so they may have quit somewhere along the line. But then again being of weak and corruptible character, I don't much care to obey that type of stupid regulation in the first place. Kevin > This incident took place in Camp 4 (aka sunnyside) in > Yosemite. > I imagine he felt quite well with 6 big cans of beer in him, Hey Kevin - how did the beer get in your pack? I know you must have been unaware of it, since alcohol is prohibited in a National Park! :-) Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Hey Kevin - how did the beer get in your pack? I know you must have >been unaware of it, since alcohol is prohibited in a National Park! >:-) It is?!?! I think it's prohibited in open containers while you're driving in a National Park. Never heard about alcohol being outright taboo, though. Shawn Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> >Hey Kevin - how did the beer get in your pack? I know you must have > >been unaware of it, since alcohol is prohibited in a > National Park! > >:-) > > It is?!?! > > I think it's prohibited in open containers while you're driving in a > National Park. Never heard about alcohol being outright > taboo, though. Really? I was just yankin Kevin's chain, but now I'm curious. Maybe it's a Regional thing? I've never had the opportunity to visit a park out west, but on the right coast I continue to see regulations pertaining to "No Alcohol" period. I did a little bit of quick research. I happened to have a park handout for the Great Smoky Mountians in NC in my office (passing it to a co-worker for their vacation), and in it, it says "Alcoholic beverages are prohibited". That's the general statement that I've seen for years. But, lo and behold, I went to the web and found this (take note of the second sentence); Section 2.35 ALCOHOLIC BEVERAGES AND CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES (a)(3)(i) The possession or consumption of an alcoholic beverage and/or the possession of a bottle, can or other receptacle containing an alcoholic beverage that is open, or that has been opened, or whose seal is broken or the contents of which has been partially removed is prohibited. This alcohol prohibition includes all park areas within the park boundary except: government owned housing, overnight lodging facilities, designated picnic areas, and frontcountry and backcountry campgrounds as identified in the current Great Smoky Mountains Trail Map, the official Smoky Mountains Folder, and the current Park newspaper. The Superintendent may authorize the possession and consumption of alcoholic beverages as part of a special event. Guess you learn something new evey day. Rick *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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