I just saw 3 men, 2 in a "double" and one in a "single," paddle by my house, on our 50 degree waters, wearing t-shirts and PFD's, in a SIT-ON-TOP. When I last checked on them, they were hanging onto my mooring buoy, apparently very puzzled by the flooding tide. How can such idiocy not only exist, but survive? Jolie San Juan Island *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, 8 Jul 2002, Jolie Smilowicz wrote: > I just saw 3 men, 2 in a "double" and one in a "single," paddle by my house, > on our 50 degree waters, wearing t-shirts and PFD's, in a SIT-ON-TOP. When I > last checked on them, they were hanging onto my mooring buoy, apparently very > puzzled by the flooding tide. How can such idiocy not only exist, but > survive? Wow. Let's hope they don't reproduce! *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> I just saw 3 men, 2 in a "double" and one in a "single," paddle by my house, >> on our 50 degree waters, wearing t-shirts and PFD's, in a SIT-ON-TOP. When I >> last checked on them, they were hanging onto my mooring buoy, apparently very >> puzzled by the flooding tide. How can such idiocy not only exist, but >> survive? > > Wow. Let's hope they don't reproduce! Listening to NPR yesterday to a story about Fish & Wildlife experts suggesting that keeping the 'big' fish and 'throwing back the small' was the exact wrong approach to ensure survival of worthy fishing stock; that if the smaller fish were kept and the largest thrown back, the quality and size of the population might well double in short order. I think I'll suggest this corrected approach for all future SAR runs... -WJJ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I just returned from a trip up in the San Juan Islands with a few members from BASK (Bay Area Sea Kayakers). We are a safety oriented group of folks. We were getting outfitted on the beach of Lopez Island one morning - very warm air temps, but the usual cooler temps in the water, and ALL of us were suiting up appropriately for the water - neoprene or fuzzy rubber suits. An outfitter was pulling boats down to the water's edge, presumably in preparation for getting some guests out on the water. After informing us of the proper car parking etiquette, he smirked "Boy! you folks are gonna be HOT in all that neoprene!", as if, neoprene was silly at best, and majorly uncomfortable. That should explain why Jolie saw those guys paddling by in shorts and tee-shirts. The inexperienced combined with the underdressed only makes for perfect testing of Darwinian theory. Sheesh! Lisa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Lisa, Let's hope they haven't had children---we don't want the gene pool to be diluted. ;-) Steve Holtzman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lisa Ouellette" <poquita_at_cwo.com> "Boy! you folks are gonna be HOT in all that neoprene!", as > if, neoprene was silly at best, and majorly uncomfortable. > > That should explain why Jolie saw those guys paddling by in shorts and > tee-shirts. The inexperienced combined with the underdressed only makes > for perfect testing of Darwinian theory. > > Sheesh! > Lisa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
One of the problems is most SJ outfitters have gone for years and years guiding the relatively clam waters of the SJ's with out incident so why not guide without proper gear. It's the norm. We are the weirdoes for being so over cautious. George Gronseth and I had a talk a few years ago and came to the conclusion that we were the only outfitters up there who were using wetsuits and teaching proper safety. Maybed there were others but we never crossed paths. A theory I have is dress for the water temp and you're a weirdo for NOT wanting to go swimming and practice RESCUES and RECOVERIES! =:-o) steve *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I have done the same thing many times when first learning the sport. It is very comfortable, and tossing a rolled up jacket on the deck was my concession to safety. I have observed the failure or the immortality factor in practice. I have modified my behavior and fortunately suffered no extreme lesson to prompt the change. If indeed that was an outfitter you encountered I can only speculate who will be the one to serve as his teacher. Some poor soul looking for a little mild adventure on holiday, ignorant of the chance he may come home in a box, or maybe not at all. Kevin I just returned from a trip up in the San Juan Islands with a few members from BASK (Bay Area Sea Kayakers). We are a safety oriented group of folks. We were getting outfitted on the beach of Lopez Island one morning - very warm air temps, but the usual cooler temps in the water, and ALL of us were suiting up appropriately for the water - neoprene or fuzzy rubber suits. An outfitter was pulling boats down to the water's edge, presumably in preparation for getting some guests out on the water. After informing us of the proper car parking etiquette, he smirked "Boy! you folks are gonna be HOT in all that neoprene!", as if, neoprene was silly at best, and majorly uncomfortable. That should explain why Jolie saw those guys paddling by in shorts and tee-shirts. The inexperienced combined with the underdressed only makes for perfect testing of Darwinian theory. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Out of curiosity, what is the typical air and surface water temps there and how far from shore are we talking about? Are there other mitigating factors? I see some paddlers wearing more sometimes than I would wear if I were going to swim the same course! If the outfitter can have the paddler on a dry shore in 75 degree air in a few minutes, then they don't need a wetsuit in my mind. Wearing shorts and a tee shirt and carrying some warmer clothes seems prudent to me in conditions where some folks wear wetsuits AND sneer at those who don't. Also, it occurs to me that you *are* a weirdo if you dress for long exposure to submersion when the air is warm, help is close by, and you are never more than a few minutes from shore. My motto is dress for survival in the water for the amount of time you are likely to spend there and comfort in the air. If both aren't possible survival takes precedence. Note the word survival, survival in the water is different than comfort in the water. Pete Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
My rebuttal to this is 'things go wrong'. Immersion in water creates a heat imbalance. Sure, maybe you can get someone to shore in five minutes in perfect conditions. What happens when you can't, and they're immersed for a half hour, or they're caught in an unexpected rip, or they panic? Murphy, combined with Occam. I'm not advocating dressing for the Antarctic, here, but it seems just as extreme to dress minimally for the best of all possible scenarios. It seems to me that the rational approach is to plan and dress for the center of the range of possible outcomes. YMMV. .ashton On Mon, 22 Jul 2002, Peter Staehling wrote: > Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2002 09:01:53 -0700 (PDT) > From: Peter Staehling <staehpj1_at_yahoo.com> > To: Paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] scary sight > > Out of curiosity, what is the typical air and surface > water temps there and how far from shore are we > talking about? Are there other mitigating factors? > > I see some paddlers wearing more sometimes than I > would wear if I were going to swim the same course! > If the outfitter can have the paddler on a dry shore > in 75 degree air in a few minutes, then they don't > need a wetsuit in my mind. Wearing shorts and a tee > shirt and carrying some warmer clothes seems prudent > to me in conditions where some folks wear wetsuits AND > sneer at those who don't. > > Also, it occurs to me that you *are* a weirdo if you > dress for long exposure to submersion when the air is > warm, help is close by, and you are never more than a > few minutes from shore. > > My motto is dress for survival in the water for the amount of time you > are likely to spend there and comfort in the air. If both aren't > possible survival takes precedence. Note the word survival, survival in > the water is different than comfort in the water. > > Pete > > Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better > http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Last April a paddler in our group became seasick. Another paddler wearing only a cotton t shirt and shorts followed her in through the surf to the beach. Both dumped and dragged themselves onto the beach. The seasick one dressed in fleece was a bit uncomfortable. The one in cotton shorts and shirt went mildly hypothermic and warmed up 45 minutes after changing her clothes in camp and being wrapped in a blanket. She is, shall we say, naturally well insulated too. Air temp 68. Water temp 59. Distance to beach, 100 yards. Wind 15 mph. Time of immersion well under 2 minutes. Late last May our group paddled the Savannah River. Water temp lower 60's. Air temp about 80. I was wearing a shortie wet suit and decided to practice rolling about thirty feet from the boat ramp. I blew the first one and did a wet exit. I was in the water about three minutes while we did a relaxed recovery. When I paddled to the ramp I remarked to a surgeon in the group that I was absolutely exhausted. The surgeon remarked that I was a surprising shade of pink. It was quite an eye opener to see the rapid effects of a cool water immersion on a scrawny example of manhood like me. Perhaps I really should drink more beer. Jim et al ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ashton Treadway" <ashton_at_tundra.org> > My rebuttal to this is 'things go wrong'. Immersion in water creates a > heat imbalance. Sure, maybe you can get someone to shore in five minutes > in perfect conditions. What happens when you can't, and they're immersed > for a half hour, or they're caught in an unexpected rip, or they panic? > Murphy, combined with Occam. > > From: Peter Staehling <staehpj1_at_yahoo.com> > > Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] scary sight > > If the outfitter can have the paddler on a dry shore > > in 75 degree air in a few minutes, then they don't > > need a wetsuit in my mind. Wearing shorts and a tee > > shirt and carrying some warmer clothes seems prudent > > to me in conditions where some folks wear wetsuits AND > > sneer at those who don't. > > Pete *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just an observation I thought I'd pass along. In addition to having paddled for many of years, I also race a sports car with the SCCA. I was very startled to read a recent post on Paddlewise that there had been 18, and it would appear now, 19 kayaking fatalities this year. Believe me, if there had been 18 fatalities in motorsports in the same half-season, I suspect that there would be an incredible outcry about the auto racing being a blood sport with complaints that it ought to be outlawed etc. I quipped on a list that I belong to that my wife was encouraging me to sell the race car and get a new tandem kayak. I figured that she was delighted with our two new puppies and was content to sit back and collect the insurance. In either endeavor, accidents can happen and those that are prepared have the best chance of walking away to play another day. John MacKechnie Ironically, I suspect that I have occasionally taken greater risks in my kayak than I have in my racecar. Racers prepare for the big off obsessively. Do most kayakers prepare for the big catastrophe with the same thoroughness? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- John MacKechnie <bigmac1_at_enter.net> wrote: > Just an observation I thought I'd pass along. In > addition to having paddled > for many of years, I also race a sports car with the > SCCA. I was very > startled to read a recent post on Paddlewise that > there had been 18, and it would appear now, 19 > kayaking fatalities this year. Not exactly a fair comparison. There are a lot more kayakers than sportscar racers. I don't know the numbers, but I suspect that 100 times as many is a conservative estimate. As an aside. I used to race motorcycles and knew a number of racers who died in activities related to the sport. Those who died traveling long hours to and from races outnumbered those who died racing by a good margin. I suspect the same is likely to be true of kayaking. Pete Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
It's unfortunate when any paddlers downplay the significance of safety gear, but when outfitters do it, it's downright wrong. These people are the folks who typically give rank beginners their first introduction to the sport. Talk about starting off on the wrong foot. Lisa Ouellette <poquita_at_cwo.com> wrote: >After informing us of the proper car parking etiquette, (the outfitter) smirked "Boy! you folks are gonna be HOT in all that neoprene!", as if, neoprene was silly at best, and majorly uncomfortable....Sheesh! Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
"Boy! you folks are gonna be HOT in all that neoprene!", - Well, were you hot? I regularly paddle in the Gulf Islands. Its the Canadian version of the San Juans with much the same conditions. I must confess that when the air temperatures start climbing I will often paddle in just shorts and a tee-shirt. To me the option is to climb into my dry suit and be uncomfortable all day, or maybe not to go at all. On a day like today... winds light and variable, highs expected in the 30's (C), paddling in an area I'm familiar with, with people I trust, with the rest of the safety gear intact (PFD, flares, VHF), I think it is a perfectly acceptable risk, IMHO, to paddle without immersion protection. My suit is with me in a hatch at all times in case conditions change and I regularly practice rolls and rescues without the suit. To me saying that anyone who doesn't paddle in immersion gear 100% of the time is foolish sounds elitist and snobbish. I'm not talking about new paddlers here, but in the right conditions I think that it is acceptable for an experienced paddler to head out in shorts and a tee shirt. After all if we wanted to eliminate all risk we would stay home and watch nature shows on TV. Having said that. If I am in an unknown area, if the weather or currents are questionable, if I go solo, or am doing a long crossing, I will wear my suit. Steve Davis, who occasionally paddles sans suit and is still around to further his gene line (if he so chooses). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If there had been 19 fatalities in paddling competitions I think there would be an outcry. All of the paddling fatalities this year have been recreational. A better analogy might be between the 19 paddling fatalities and the thousands of vehicle fatalities. When you run down to Wal Mart in your car do you: wear your helmet, a five point harness, have a full fire suppression system in the car, have some degree of trust in the other drivers, etc. etc. As any drive across town will demonstrate, there are many drivers poorly equipped by training, experience and equipment, unfortunately the same problem exists in our sport. > Believe me, if there had been 18 fatalities in motorsports in the same > half-season, I suspect that there would be an incredible outcry about the > auto racing being a blood sport with complaints that it ought to be outlawed > etc. > *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I'm not entirely sure about the numbers and I don't know how you could compare. However, on any given friday night and all weekend, there are a whole lot of folks driving everything from carts to clapped out stockcars to formula cars, to late models to sports cars and beyond. Hundreds show up for the drags every weekend. I kinda made the same assumption until I started to think about all of the local dirt trackers, drag racers and cart folks who race every weekend. I didn't count the autoXers, but I should have because there have been extremely rare fatalities. When you make a stupid mistake in a racecar, it usually costs you a lot of money. In a Kayak, when things go wrong, it gets really bad. I'd bet that in many portions of the country including my neck of the woods, northeastern PA, folks involved with motor sports out number the kayakers by a good margin. John MacKechnie Again, I don't know how fair the comparison is, but I found it to be rather ironic. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
With all due respect, Pete, there is a reason a lot of the rescues described in "Deep Trouble" take place in the San Juan Islands. The water is never more than 55*F there, even in the summer time. Several of the incidents happened to outfitted groups. Wetsuits are cheap insurance, especially if it's your liability and professional livelihood on the line if something goes badly with one of your clients. The air is warm, but not hot. It's a really warm day if it's over 75*F. Help is close by if you can summon it. Sometimes there's a WA State ferry or pleasure craft nearby. Sometimes you may drift for several hours. With crossings of up to 6 miles, shore could be as much as an hour away, neglecting currents. It's too big a risk to not have immersion protection, especially if it's someone else's life. I see nothing wrong with SNEERing at folks who decide not to wear adequate immersion protection. It's like sneering at helmetless motorcycle riders, or parents who don't buckle their kids. (And for the record, on club or instructional trips, I bring spare immersion pro for group members or students who forgot- or don't have enough of- their own). Shawn Peter Staehling wrote: >Wearing shorts and a tee shirt and carrying some warmer clothes seems >prudent to me in conditions where some folks wear wetsuits AND sneer at >those who don't. >Also, it occurs to me that you *are* a weirdo if you dress for long >exposure to submersion when the air is warm, help is close by, and you > are never more than a few minutes from shore. Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> Right on Shawn!!! Seven very experienced ocean paddlers went out for a scenic coastal paddle yesterday in Santa Barbara, CA. The air temperature was in the high 70's and the water temp was 65-67. Everybody was wearing a lycra or poly pro rash guard under a farmer john in addition to skirts and PFD's. Nobody went swimming, although there were 2 surf launches and landings for all. When it got too hot, those who could roll did and those who couldn't just splashed water on their heads, faces, arms, etc. > > I see nothing wrong with SNEERing at folks who decide not to wear > adequate immersion protection. It's like sneering at helmetless > motorcycle riders, or parents who don't buckle their kids. (And for > the record, on club or instructional trips, I bring spare immersion pro > for group members or students who forgot- or don't have enough of- > their own). > > Shawn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'day, Its winter in Sydney Australia and the water is typically 60F (16C) and winds between 10 and 25 knots. I couldn't tolerate going on the water without a wetsuit and several layers!! In summertime I wear the absolute minimum (more than just sunscreen though) but would always carry spare warm clothing and a cag. For one thing, as Ralph Diaz pointed out years ago, it might be necessary to try and rescue someone else. Something I don't understand is why some clothes are warm and others not? I know my synthetic "Rashie" is bitter cold by itself in the air (worse than not wearing a shirt at all) and I've heard cotton is deadly when its wet and windy. Whereas its common knowledge that clothes made out of old soft drink bottles are beautifully warm. One might look silly on land but look very sensible a few km out on the water. All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
--- Shawn Baker <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> wrote: > With all due respect, Pete, there is a reason a lot > of the rescues > described in "Deep Trouble" take place in the San > Juan Islands. I freely admitted right from my first post that I was not familiar with the conditions there. That is why I asked what the conditions were there. > I see nothing wrong with SNEERing at folks who > decide not to wear > adequate immersion protection. Yes maybe, but the operative word is "adequate". It isn't up to me to decide what you should wear, nor you what I should wear. If you feel I might endanger you then certainly you have a right to not paddle with me though. Just for the record I have paddled for about 30 years (mostly whitewater). Some years I paddled almost everyday in the summer and a couple times a week through the winter. Some years I didn't paddle much. Anyway, in all that time I was mildy hypothermic once (the one time I was hypothermic, I had on a dry suit and two layers of heavy pile). The few times that I was cold enough to be uncomfortable were also times when I had on a lot of gear. Conditions were just extreme enough that I would have been cold no matter what I wore. In thousands of trips, my choice of clothing never inconvenienced anyone. I would say what I wear must be "adequate". Pete Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve Scherrer" <flatpick_at_teleport.com> wrote: >> One of the problems is most SJ outfitters have gone for years and years guiding the relatively clam waters of the SJ's with out incident so why not guide without proper gear. It's the norm. >> Some have questioned the value/practicability of farmer john wet suit protection (and similar) in the San Juans, based on nearness to shore, ease of rescue, etc. All I can say is that the San Juan paddling environment is very deceptive. One moment you can be paddling in a serene bay and the next in a millrace. All you have to do (if a novice and unaware of the marine terrain) is round a corner and the currents there can put you in trouble quickly. As others describe, I have seen many paddlers in the San Juans, on sunny days, embark with what I thought was inadequate immersion protection. That there are very few fatalities is a testament to the quality of the equipment people use, I suspect, and perhaps to the quality of guiding. Deep Trouble has several incidents in which hypothermia has killed or nearly killed paddlers in the greater San Juan paddling corridor. I do agree folks who are experienced and know those waters can get away with T-shirt paddling -- because they know when to don the rubber and when to go ashore to do so. New paddlers may find the San Juans deceptive. That's what is important, I think. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter Staehling <staehpj1_at_yahoo.com> wrote: >Jolie, >Re: your comment about not wearing shorts and tee shirt even in >Florida. 80 degree water, 90 degree air, what could be more sensible >than shorts and a tee shirt. True, where hyperthermia is more of a risk than hypothermia. Still, I heard of several participants at the April Sweetwater Symposium lament that they didn't bring drysuits. Shawn Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Just for the record, the water temp was about 55F in the harbor, and a little less in the channels between islands. My group was planning a 4 mile crossing from Lopez Island to San Juan Island. Yes, we were hot while on land in our neoprene, but once under way, we were quite comfortable. I would have felt much better if the outfitter had asked us where we were going prior to suggesting that we were overdressed. As it was, we encountered Ferry wakes, Rip tides, Eddy currents +/- 4 knots, reflection waves, etc. all along an open water crossing. If we were staying in the harbor, even I might submit to shorts and a tee shirt - but I can swim pretty well, and, as they say, I'm pretty well insulated naturally. This outfitter really concerned me in his cavalier attitude about our attire. Hope that clarifies it. Lsia *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Lisa said: <snip> <<< That should explain why Jolie saw those guys paddling by in shorts and tee-shirts. The inexperienced combined with the underdressed only makes for perfect testing of Darwinian theory. >>> Funnily enough. I must admit I wore less protective gear the first few years when I got into kayaking, than I do now. I suppose I've seen enough and experiences enough as the last two decades went by to convince me to err on the side of caution with respect to immersion apparel. On really hot days, I can't imagine a drysuit, but a light Farmer John as a base, with added top-wear as conditions demand, has worked out to be not a bad compromise. My legs can get a bit hot at time, but shielded from direct sunlight, things are bearable. I also wonder if new paddlers just seem to think they can't afford immersion apparel at first, ot think its overkill, and/or use use the "it's tot hot" as an excuse to not but more gear while in the midst of acquiring all the other stuff. Summer may not prove to be too much of a test of the Darwinian theory thing, but as fall rolls around and these same folks continue to wear street gear to paddle in, survival of the prudent becomes more prevalent. A quick review of spring and fall incidents bears this out. Immersion apparel is rarely evident. Having said that, when the mercury soars, it is awfully tempting to forego immersion apparel. I suppose if one's reenter skills are good and/or assisted rescues close by, it is hard to argue against the fact that a paddler could be back in their boat and warmed up in a matter of a few moments -- allowing the use of summer attire. DL *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>Yes maybe, but the operative word is "adequate". It isn't up to me to decide what you should wear, nor you what I should wear. No, but it is up to an outfitter to decide what their clients wear. They're viewed as an expert, and recommending what common sense and experience would call adequate is irresponsible. >If you feel I might endanger you then certainly you have a right to not >paddle with me though. Fair enough. >In thousands of trips, my choice of clothing never inconvenienced >anyone. I would say what I wear must be "adequate". That is an excellent answer. If someone in the San Juans has to flag down a passing ferry, it's inconveniencing a whole lot of folks. If your personal protection is adequate based on your own experience and knowledge, and it doesn't inconvenience anyone, it's adequate. Shawn Yahoo! Health - Feel better, live better http://health.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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