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From: Eric Unrau <eunrau_at_yahoo.ca>
subject: [Paddlewise] Roof Rack Spacing - Fibreglass Kayaks
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 20:07:18 -0700
With respect to fibreglass boats, is it important to space the roof
racks so that they are directly under the bulkheads?

I am planning to attach rack mounts to the poptop on my Westfalia
tommorow. I do have some flexibility on where these mounts are located,
but once the holes are drilled, they are permanent. 68" spacing would
place the bars under bulkheads perfectly, but i'd also like to be able
to use my bike carriers which require 48" spacing or less.

So...how important is rack spacing for fibreglass kayaks???

Thx,
Eric

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From: Steve Scherrer <flatpick_at_teleport.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Rack Spacing - Fibreglass Kayaks
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 06:12:23 -0700
set the spacing for the bike and either use saddles or good padding on the
bars.  Be careful how tightly you tie the boats down to the bars and ALWAYS
use bow and stern lines.

steve


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From: Robert Livingston & Pam Martin <bearboat2_at_attbi.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Rack Spacing - Fibreglass Kayaks
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 09:08:12 -0700
It is possible to have the racks too close.

I have a long double and a car that required because of the nature of the
drip guards that the racks to be close (less than 48 though I do not have an
exact measurement)

Took the kayak on a trip that involved an hour of logging road and it
developed stress cracks in the sides of the hull over one of the racks.

Subsequently, I have stuffed padding between the kayak and the roof in a
position aft of the aft bar to prevent some of the stress.

The manufactures of the racks do provide extenders that run the length of
the boat to deal with short distances between racks problems.

The likelihood of this problem increases with longer and less ruggedly
constructed kayaks. Tight bow lines may or may not make it worse.

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From: anonymizer <td376_at_mail.anonymizer.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Foam bulkhead removal
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 14:04:22 -0400
I am in the process of replacing the foam bulkheads in my kayak with plywood 
ones.  The kayak is a Kevlar Eddyline Wind Dancer.  The front one is being 
replace because I am installing a foot pump.  The rear one is being replaced 
with two plywood ones.  One in the original position and a second one just 
forward of the rear hatch.  First, this will give me a day hatch/compartment. 
 Second, the kayak has developed two 5" cracks in the gel coat where the deck 
curves down to the sides centered on the leading edge of the rear hatch.  
This has occurred because the rear deck buckels in when I slide up on the 
rear deck to perform a paddle float rescue.  When I slide up on the rear deck 
it makes some rather bad sounding noises and you can see the rear hatch 
twisting in its deck opening.  The foam bulkheads do not add any support to 
the rear deck.  I am using 6mm okoume marine plywood, fiberglass, and epoxy 
to build the new bulkheads.  With two ridged bulkheads supporting the deck 
right under the spot where I slide up on should solve the problem.  Right now 
I am looking for any tips as how to remove the foam bulkheads without 
destroying them.  Also, should I put in a 1/4" to 3/8" strip of foam of some 
type around the perimeter of the bulkhead to eliminate a hard point between 
the bulkhead and the hull?  I read about that technique in the book "The Boat 
Repair Manual" by Buchanan as a way to keep cracks off the hull in composite 
boat construction.  Not sure if this applies to kayaks.

Thanks for your support.

Jan Mason
td376_at_mail.anonymizer.com
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Foam bulkhead removal
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 18:19:41 -0400
From: "anonymizer" <td376_at_mail.anonymizer.com>

> Also, should I put in a 1/4" to 3/8" strip of foam of some 
> type around the perimeter of the bulkhead to eliminate a hard point between 
> the bulkhead and the hull?

If you do that, the bulkheads will not support the deck as you would like.
The best thing would be to build up a fillet of fiberglass to hold the 
bulkhead and spread the load to the deck and hull.

Mike

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From: anonymizer <td376_at_mail.anonymizer.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Foam bulkhead removal
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 08:58:16 -0400
Here is what the plan looks like:

In the book "The Boat Repair Manual" by Buchanan, he shows a strip of 
polyurethane foam between the bulkhead and the hull along with a triangle 
shaped piece of cardboard in the corner between the hull and bulkhead. Then a 
couple of layers of fiberglass over that. He says that:

"This ensures that in the event of a severe localized impact the hull is 
supported by ther flanges, and not by the ridged bulkhead. It does not 
however, inhibit the primary function of the bulkhead, which is to maintain 
the strength and symmetry of the hull."

If I use 3M 5200 Marine Adhesive Sealant in place of the polyurethane foam, 
put a triangle piece of foam in the bulkhead - hull corner and tie it all 
together with 4" fiberglass tape, that would give me a very strong and yet 
flexable connection. Sounds like it may even be into the area of overkill. I 
like overkill. The 3M 5200 looks like some real good stuff for this 
application. 

The bulkhead will be 6mm okoume marine plywood sealed up fiberglass 
on either side and epoxy.

I am new to all this fiberglass/boat repair stuff so I am asking lots of 
questions along with some reading. Thanks for your support.

Jan Mason
td376_at_mail.anonymizer.com
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Foam bulkhead removal
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 11:40:42 -0400
From: "anonymizer" <td376_at_mail.anonymizer.com>

> "This ensures that in the event of a severe localized impact the hull is 
> supported by ther flanges, and not by the ridged bulkhead. It does not 
> however, inhibit the primary function of the bulkhead, which is to maintain 
> the strength and symmetry of the hull."

This sounds reasonable - originally, I was thinking that you were just referring
to foam and sealant without the fiberglass. 

> If I use 3M 5200 Marine Adhesive Sealant in place of the polyurethane foam, 
> put a triangle piece of foam in the bulkhead - hull corner and tie it all 
> together with 4" fiberglass tape, that would give me a very strong and yet 
> flexable connection. Sounds like it may even be into the area of overkill. I 
> like overkill. The 3M 5200 looks like some real good stuff for this 
> application. 

Are you using fiberglass tape on both sides of the bulkhead?  If so, I'd skip 
the 5200 and just use foam.  The 5200 would take a while to fully cure and 
sealing it into the fiberglass may delay its full cure.  The fiberglass will 
provide all the seal you'd want.  

Instead of a triangle of foam. I'd consider a trapezoid of foam with the wide
base against the hull and narrow side against the bulkhead with one strip
of fiberglass on either side.  The foam would shape the fillet on both sides.

If you're using tape on one side only, the sealant is a good idea.  Get
the fast cure version though.

> The bulkhead will be 6mm okoume marine plywood sealed up fiberglass 
> on either side and epoxy.

I used 4mm okoume for a bulkhead (and shelf) in my Solstice with glass on 
both sides (6 oz) and found it plenty strong - 6mm sounds like it might be 
overkill.  6mm will certainly handle a footpump.

> I am new to all this fiberglass/boat repair stuff so I am asking lots of 
> questions along with some reading. Thanks for your support

Get your hands dirty (well, figuratively speaking - wear protective gloves
against the epoxy!) and you'll learn fast enough.  Once you start doing
mods, you'll see opportunities everywhere :-)

Mike

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From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Rack Spacing - Fibreglass Kayaks
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 14:25:03 -0400
Mike Vandamm augmented his rack system by placing an extension ladder on it.
The rigidity of the ladder was meant to help support his Feathercraft
Khatsalano which he left assembled on his SUV as a form of storage.  He got
foam blocks which he attached to about 6 or more rungs of the ladder,
trimming and shaping the foam blocks to conform to the rocker and siloheutte
of his boat.  He did various things to keep the ladder on the racks
including very strong front and rear tiedowns.

It worked well until one day he forgot he had the boat on the roof and drove
into an underground garage.  It totaled the Khats.  An ordinary roof rack
would have torn off the roof of the car sparing the Khats some of the damage
it sustained.  But tied to the unyielding ladder it accordioned.

So, the idea is good for your double...just remember the boat is up there.
:-)

ralph


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From: anonymizer <td376_at_mail.anonymizer.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Rack Spacing - Fibreglass Kayaks
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 22:49:39 -0400
I have a Kevlar Eddyline Wind Dancer 17' kayak which I carry around 
on a 1985 Westfalia camper.  Mine are spaced at 39.25" on center.
The spacing of the rack as well as the location on the fiberglass roof 
of the Westy were determined by the 7' cargo box that is mounted on 
the passenger side.  The leading edge of the nose of the cargo box 
lines up with the front of the pop top.  I use a Saris rack system.  
The rack spacing allows the straps to go on either side of the combing.
This does not line up with the bulkheads at all.  In the last year and a half 
I have had it on at least 12 600 mile trips with straps on either side of the 
combing along with bow and stern straps.  No problems at all.  This 
spacing also works out well for carring the mountain bikes.  If you 
have foam bulkheads they do not give you any extra support at all.
That is what I have and that is why I am replacing them with ridged 
plywood bulkheads next week.  I would say, based on my experience,
to set them up so that you could also carry the bikes.  On my setup 
with my kayak I have a 1' overhang on the front and a 1' overhang on 
the rear.  17' kayak and a 15' camper.  Good luck and measure twice 
and drill once.  Adding the roof rack, cargo box, and kayak took my
gas milage from 19mpg to 14mpg on the freeway.

Jan Mason
td376_at_mail.anonymizer.com

> With respect to fibreglass boats, is it important to space the roof
> racks so that they are directly under the bulkheads?
>
> I am planning to attach rack mounts to the poptop on my Westfalia
> tommorow. I do have some flexibility on where these mounts are located,
> but once the holes are drilled, they are permanent. 68" spacing would
> place the bars under bulkheads perfectly, but i'd also like to be able
> to use my bike carriers which require 48" spacing or less.
>
> So...how important is rack spacing for fibreglass kayaks???
>
> Thx,
> Eric
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From: anonymizer <td376_at_mail.anonymizer.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Rack Spacing - Fibreglass Kayaks
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:12:54 -0400
Yes it does.  My Westy is all white and has a 7' cargo box on the starboard 
side.  Would that be a Wind Dancer on the port side?

> Does your setup look something like this??
>
> Scott Simpson
> Anchorage Alaska
>
> "There is always one more thing you can do to influence any situation"
> Lt. Gen Harold Moore, USA (Ret)

--snip--

Jan Mason
td376_at_mail.anonymizer.com

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From: Doug Lloyd <dougl_at_islandnet.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roof Rack Spacing - Fibreglass Kayaks
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 18:42:01 -0700
I clicked, I looked, I liked. Looks like a good system. I think you are correct -
either a strong but flexible system is in order, or alternatively, something
completely rigid but totally conforming to the hull (usually home made). Those
are the two ways to go.

DL

<http://www.graberproducts.com/article/article_control.asp?nextForm=fDetailArticle&originForm=fDetailArticle&id=212&class=8&push=originForm%3DfDetailCategory%08nextForm%3DfAssociatedArticle%08id%3D22%08class%3D8%08bctitle%3DRelated+Products>

anonymizer wrote:

> On Tuesday 23 July 2002 02:17 am, you wrote:
> > Dave said:
> > <snip>
> > <<<
> > Almost all of the rack time of my FG yaks has been on quality Yakima
> > saddles, with as much hull support as most rack systems provide.  The
> > problem areas have been way aft or way forward, where the saddle systems
> > do not conform so well to the hull profile.  Perversely, the hull of my
> > light layup Wind Dancer shows no gel coat cracks at the forward strap
> > location, which is way aft of the bulkhead, and and where the yak is of
> > largest cross section.  Good fit to the saddles?  Don't know.  Go
> > figure?  Probably.
> >
> >
> > Then there's my boat...and sometimes I worry that my kayak might be too
> > much for my Yak racks.
> > DL
>
> I use a Saris rack system.  http://www.graberproducts.com/  The kayak saddles
> are flexable.  The straps run on the outside of the saddles and the saddles
> conform to the shape of the kayak's hull.  Perfect fit every time.
>
> Jan Mason
> td376_at_mail.anonymizer.com

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