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From: Matt Broze <mkayaks_at_oz.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Ballast and Trim
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 18:57:14 -0700
PeterO asked:
>>>>>>>Can anyone tell me whether ballast in the rear improves the
performance in a
following sea - I'm wondering if the fact I don't have a problem with a boat
that is supposed to have such a problem is because I'm putting some gear in
the rear hatch.<<<<<<

Peter and anyone else using ballast or loading gear may wish to read "WHERE
SHOULD THE SLIDING SEAT BE?" In our "Owners" manual on our website
www.marinerkayaks.com.  If you have the ability to move ballast you can
change the trim of the kayak significantly. It should be easy to convert
from moving the paddler (as we do) to moving ballast (moving a 150 pound
paddler back 6 inches would have about the same effect on trim as moving 30
pounds of ballast back 30 inches). There is also an explanation of which
direction to move weight for which conditions that is applicable to most
kayaks, not just ours. Our "Paddling " manual also discusses how (and why)
to distribute the weight when loading a kayak. BTW Peter, which kayak is it
you own that is reputed to paddle similar to an Icefloe?

Keith Rodgers wrote:
>>>>>>As for PeterO's question regarding ballast affecting a boat's handling
in
following seas, at the risk of straying way out of my area of expertise, I'd
guess that although 20 lbs properly placed behind the paddler can and will
affect side-to-side trim, its effect on fore-and-aft trim would be at best a
modest reduction in the bow's tendency to pearl.<<<<<<<

The effect of 20 added pounds could be quite pronounced if that much weight
was placed further aft or forward from the center.
Actually the placement of weight further back can sometimes increase a
kayaks bows tendency to pearl into head seas. The reason is that the bow
doesn't drop as soon going over a wave (with more in the rear of this
natural teeter-totter). That delay can mean the bow is dropping into the
trough with some momentum just in time to meet the next wave rising up
rather than being gently lifted by the wave if it had dropped sooner. If I
was adding weight to a kayak that handles pretty well already I'd put it
just behind (or under) the seat to keep it the closest to the center as
possible to maintain trim and maneuverability. If the kayak had a strong
weather helm in side winds or broached quickly in a following sea putting
the weight further back will help that kayak's handling (and will be well
worth the slight loss in maneuverability that will result). You will also
lose a little bit in top speed when out of trim to the rear but if you were
worried about speed you probably wouldn't have added the extra ballast
weight in the first place.

Kevin wrote:
>>>>>>It's a Valley Canoe Icefloe, 16'11" x 23 3/4"<<<<<

I don't believe that Valley Canoe ever made the Icefloe or any other of
Derek Hutchinson's designs. If it is an Icefloe it was most likely built by
P&H Fiberglass (or maybe McNulty Seaglass if it is older and 16'8" long with
a 7" hatch in back). A guy in SE Alaska (Dancing Bear I think he called his
co.) also built some back in the early 1980's. Probably there were some
other builders as well but I doubt any of Derek's designs were ever built by
Valley Canoe. Is there a Valley Canoe decal on it or maybe just VCP (Valley
Canoe Products) hatches?

Matt Broze
http://www.marinerkayaks.com


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From: John March <jsmarch_at_acpub.duke.edu>
subject: [Paddlewise] Roll practice and failed rolls
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 14:23:23 -0400
>Hi All,

I was wondering whether anyone had any experience using something like a 
Backup by RollAid (pre-inflated by mouth) or a pre-inflated paddle float as 
a back-up to a failed roll when doing roll practice.  I haven't had much 
luck finding spotters and, for a newbie who still blows it as often as not, 
it gets tiresome to have to bail, reenter, pump etc. when practicing.

Thanks in advance,

John




*********************************************************
John S. March, MD, MPH
Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences
Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences
Duke Child and Family Study Center
718 Rutherford Street
Durham, NC 27705
919/416-2404 (P); 919/416-2420 (F)
Email: jsmarch_at_acpub.duke.edu
Website: http://www2.mc.duke.edu/pcaad


"I maintain there is much more wonder in science than in pseudoscience. And 
in addition, to whatever measure this term has any meaning, science has the 
additional virtue, and it is not an inconsiderable one, of being true."
--Carl Sagan

*********************************************************


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From: Jolie Smilowicz <jolie_at_rockisland.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roll practice and failed rolls
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 15:21:22 -0700
John says:
>
> I was wondering whether anyone had any experience using something like a
> Backup by RollAid (pre-inflated by mouth) or a pre-inflated paddle float
as
> a back-up to a failed roll when doing roll practice.


John, absolutely.  Pre-inflated paddle float, then move to solid foam paddle
float--less buoyant.  I also found it useful to put on a dive mask so that I
could see what the paddle was doing.  And maybe find water shallow enough
that you can push yourself back up with your paddle blade, so you can avoid
bailing.

Jolie

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From: John Blackburn <digipixs_at_erols.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roll practice and failed rolls
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 10:55:04 -0700
Jolie Smilowicz wrote:

>  And maybe find water shallow enough
> that you can push yourself back up with your paddle blade, so you can avoid
> bailing.
>
> Jolie

This is a great way to break a paddle, I did it once in a pool session, trying
to pole vault off the bottom!  Another time in shallow water I missed a roll
(seems I'm always missing a roll) and cracked the end of a Greenland paddle I
had just made on the rocks on the river bed.  That padddle now has a
fiberglassed tip!

The best advise I've heard, and it may have come from someone on this list, was
to put the paddle float on but try and roll with the normal blade, if you miss
the roll switch paddle ends and come up with the paddle float.

John Blackburn


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From: Scot Hume <scot_hume_at_yahoo.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roll practice and failed rolls
Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:31:00 -0700 (PDT)
Hi,

I learned to roll several years ago doing exactly what
your talking about and it worked great.  I still use
it to practice in my never ending task of bombproofing
my roll.  Getting rid of the paddle and just using the
float is good practice for hand rolling.

One suggestion, it is much more comfortable doing roll
practice in shallow water, but wear a helmet and tuck
forward.  You don't want to hit your head.  I like to
make sure that the water is at least 3/4 of a paddle
length deep or go just to the point that my paddle
doesn't touch so my swim to shore is short if I miss
my roll.  Also, I always drift just a little and the
water depth can change quickly along shore.

Have fun.  

Scot

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From: Doug Lloyd <dougl_at_islandnet.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Roll practice and failed rolls
Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 22:49:56 -0700
Peter Treby wrote:

> Doug Lloyd writes:
> "I was able to fine-tune my off-side roll, and nail down an
> issue that has been responsible for a few missed rolls over the years
> (one's that had dire consequences)."
> Care to enlarge on what that issue was?

Nothing too elaborate here. I find with my wider Lendal "Nordkapp" paddle with
its larger blade is more difficult to push through the water up high to clear
the bottom of the kayak. Combined with the fact that my roll of preference, the
screw roll, doesn't provide as much leverage as some other rolls, and the fact
that the sweeping blade must be swept out to 90 degrees to present the best
angle for the downward stroke portion, everything must be one just right. Often,
after I've failed to set up correctly, I get "locked" into a position where the
downward stroke is done at about 45 degrees. After about three attempts (in real
life, cold/rough water) one simply runs out of air and bails out in a panic. A
person of my experience and particular pursuits should have isolated this
problem long ago. Anyway, I was able to simulate the mistake, then figure out
how to restore the correct positioning within a few seconds, saving the roll and
myself from a panic bail-out. It simply involved making a conscious effort to
get the paddle blade back to the surface and sweep it out to 90 degrees, then do
the downward stroke. I also practiced some modified vertical storm rolls which
permitted downward strokes being performed with the blade somewhat submerged.


> I blew a roll in surf last weekend and wet exited, very annoying. While I
> haven't missed a roll on flat water practice for a while, I realise that all
> the flat water practice in the world doesn't help prepare for
> knocked-over-breathless-roll-up-knocked-down-again-totally-out-of-air-violen
> t-surf conditions. So ideally you need to practice rolling in the most
> boisterous conditions available.

Yes and no. I find surf very easy to roll in, as I use the wave energy to good
effect. My difficulties usually arise in fast moving water scenarios and
breaking deepwater waves with a high wind component.  I should also add that my
usual modus operandi with a failed roll attempt is to switch to a n extended
Pawlata Roll, but as this requires repositioning of the hands, I've tried to
avoid that and work out a really strong primary roll that I can stake my life
on.

Cheers,

Doug

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