Does anyone have experience, either personally or through observation, as to whether or not hull scratches on a kevlar boat with a black gel coat looks particularly ugly? Neysa Narena *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In my experience with black gel-coat it scratches white. I had a black hulled boat that looked pretty used after one season so I sold it. The boat's still around and really looks used now. The darker the color the more it shows scratches. steve Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe N 45º 39' 47" 250 NE Tomahawk Isle Dr. W 122º 36' 16" Portland, OR 97217 Web: www.aldercreek.com Phone: 503.285.0464 Email: aldercreek_at_qwest.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Wed, Sep 25, 2002 at 10:00:23AM -0700, Alder Creek Kayak & Canoe wrote: > In my experience with black gel-coat it scratches white. I had a > black hulled boat that looked pretty used after one season so I sold > it. The boat's still around and really looks used now. The darker > the color the more it shows scratches. All gel-coat scratches white. It's the nature of the beast. How noticeable or not it will be is partly a function of the color of the material. The darker a color is, the easier it is to see white marks against it. But even with light colors, scratches can be quite visible as well, particularly in bright light. Scratched gel-coat tends to have a uniform (dull) reflectance. Clean, non-oxidized gel-coat is quite specular in its reflectance characteristics (somewhat like auto paint). Given the right light / viewing angle combination (and there are lots of them), the difference between clean, light colored gel coat, and scratches on same, will stick out like a sore thumb. All, FWIW ... -.- jwd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, James W. Durkin wrote: > > All gel-coat scratches white. It's the nature of the beast. How > noticeable or not it will be is partly a function of the color of the > material. The darker a color is, the easier it is to see white marks > against it. But even with light colors, scratches can be quite > visible as well, particularly in bright light. i have 2 white fglass boats, well, white gel coat, and you can see the white scratches pretty well. wax the hull, and they're far less visable!! YMMV markz -- # mark zen, po box 474, fort lupton, colorado, usa, 80621-0474 #-------seakayaker[at]dotzen[dot]org-------------------------------- o, o__ o_/| o_. o__/ </ [\/ [\_| [\_\ [\/ (`-/-------/----') (`----|-------\-') `\--------/--------/' #~~_at_~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~_at_~~~~~~~~~~~~~/~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Colorado Paddlers' Resource http://www.dotzen.org/paddler A smooth sea never made a skillful mariner. ~~ English Proverb *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Neysa Narena wrote: <<<<<Does anyone have experience, either personally or through observation, as to whether or not hull scratches on a kevlar boat with a black gel coat looks particularly ugly?<<<<<<<< That might depend on whether you found highly visible scratches in your gelcoat to be ugly or beautiful. Since gelcoat scratches with a whitish scratch the darker the gelcoat the more visible the scratches will be. Only a rare major scratch will ever penetrate the gelcoat and let the Kevlar "straw" color show through (although the scratch will still probably look more white than gold). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Sep 26, 2002 at 09:05:44PM -0700, Matt Broze wrote: > Neysa Narena wrote: >> Does anyone have experience, either personally or through >> observation, as to whether or not hull scratches on a kevlar boat >> with a black gel coat looks particularly ugly? > That might depend on whether you found highly visible scratches in > your gelcoat to be ugly or beautiful. Man, I would hate to spend time with you in an art museum :-) -.- jwd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
G'day, Its long been my contention that a fluorescent green scratch should be painted onto every new kayak - underneath the gelcoat - this would alleviate "first scratch anxiety and be a boon to the kayaking world!:~) All the best, PeterO. (The first scratch is the deepest) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Hey, just another idea, fill the scratches with illuminating colour. these days I´m do some experiements with "glow-in-the-dark-yellow". Should bne a great effect, scratches glowing in the night... BTW: this colour is maybe a great idea to mark some important things on the boat or the equipment. I bought in a paper shop, its colour for windows (kids stuff), 80ml under 3 dollar. bye Jochen *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Friday, September 27, 2002, at 10:42:00 PM PST, James W. Durkin wrote: Matt: >> That might depend on whether you found highly visible scratches in >> your gelcoat to be ugly or beautiful. James: > Man, I would hate to spend time with you in an art museum :-) Actually, I kind of lean towards appreciating the beauty of hull scratches. Every scratch has a story to tell. Unless it's a deep gouge or crack that threatens the hull's integrity, there's little reason to fret over a few "beauty marks". Just as wrinkles on the weathered face of an old fisherman tell of a life lived with sea, sun, and wind, so do the scratches on your kayak hull tell something of your adventures on the sea. Sometimes as I'm washing the hull of my boat, I'll run my finger along a particularly expressive scratch, remembering a fine and lovely moment spent on the water. Or the small areas both inside and out that are worn down a little from so may entries and exits, so many landings on magical beaches. Why should I be so anxious to erase these happy visual and tactile reminders of time so well spent in this life? My 'cello, crafted in 1860, is very well maintained...yet with great care taken to not ever erase the harmless evidence of several generations of music making. When I pass it along to the next generation, there will be subtle physical evidence of my own life spent with it. Just as I can feel the generations of musicians who came before me as I play the instrument, and as I run my fingers along its lovely lines, so will a bit of me be passed along, through this instrument, to the next generation. But I digress... A boat, like a fine musical instrument, expresses her beauty in many ways...through the lives she touches (and who's lives touch her), and the places she's been. Each time you "repair" a scratch on your boat, you erase a little evidence of your own journey. Do you really want to do that just now? When somebody gazes upon the lovely scratches on your boat's hull, perhaps their daydreams of the places you've been will launch their own dreams of where they might someday go. :-) -- Melissa *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa wrote >so many landings on magical beaches. Why should >I be so anxious to erase these happy visual and >tactile reminders of time so well spent in this life? G'Day Melissa, Beautiful writing, full of truth - definitely a message to keep, All the best, PeterO *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Sat, Sep 28, 2002 at 01:50:35AM -0700, Melissa Reese wrote: > On Friday, September 27, 2002, at 10:42:00 PM PST, James W. Durkin > wrote: > Matt: >>> That might depend on whether you found highly visible scratches in >>> your gelcoat to be ugly or beautiful. > James: >> Man, I would hate to spend time with you in an art museum :-) It was a joke, not a soapbox with a "Melissa, please step up" sign attached. I'm sorry that you apparently missed the smiley. Next time I'll put in two or figure out how to make emoticons in all CAPS. Please note the response said "highly visible scratches". We're not talking here about a nick. We're not talking about a *bit* of weathering on the face of a fisherman or the hull of a boat. We're not talking about the "subtle physical evidence" of your own musical life spent with your 1860 cello. We're talking about what Matt, in his response, termed "highly visible". For all your purple prose, you seem to have utterly missed that aspect of the discussion. What some perceive as the cosmetically inconsequential signs of wear on their boats, others consider something to be avoided, if possible, or repaired if not. Both perspectives are, of course, legitimate. How inconsequential wear will appear, as judged by some sizable slice through the middle of the wide kayaker spectrum, will depend to a large degree on the characteristics of the boat *and* of the wear. The characteristics of the boat in question, if you refer back to Neysa Narena's original message, are a "black hull." The characteristics of the wear, at least as described in Matt Broze's response, are "highly visible scratches." Having seen quite visible scratches, gouges, and scuffs (none through to the glass, by the way, to refer back to Matt's comment re: exposing the yellowish kevlar) on a dark blue kayak, I'll say that the visual impression is roughly equivalent to that of badly done (i.e., of no particular artistic merit) spray paint / marker pen graffiti on a stainless steel subway car. It's certainly noticeable, looks distinctly out of place (in an aesthetic sense), and is, for lack of a better term, *butt ugly*. In a nutshell, they (the graffiti and the highly visible scratches on a dark hull) have roughly the same visual impact that you would get should someone take a steel awl to your cello and in so doing make a serious attempt at carving a fair quantity of easily readable hieroglyphics. I suspect such handiwork would not likely yield on your face a smile of admiration for evidence of music well played, but something else entirely. And the same look of dismay may appear just as quickly on the face of the owner of the scratched up boat once they get a good gander at it. If your response is "well, I'm not talking about gouges dug into my cello with an awl", then you're not talking about something along the lines of the highly visible gelcoat scratches of the discussion -- an apples to oranges comparison, in other words. If you say a boat is a tool, to be used in a way likely to get it scratched up, then the fisherman's face and your cello are not tools of the same class, if they're even tools at all. Apples to oranges yet again. Your personal feelings about the wear on your boat that's so readily seen and felt are certainly valid. They're valid because their yours -- that, in and of itself, is enough. They're valid also because other kayakers do share them with you. Yet there are still other kayakers who don't find them so beautiful, for whom they fail to engender loving memories, and who would prefer to be rid of them, were that possible (and it usually is, should they wish to expend the effort). Nothing you said invalidates that alternate position. I happen, at least in the case of the type of boat described in the original query, to fall into this latter camp. And I see invalid, inappropriate, or ill considered in that position, either with or without your comments taken into consideration. There is room on the water and off for both, and many variants in between. What I deeply, passionately object to is the far too often expressed opinion on this list, should someone query about cosmetic issues and their kayak, that fall into the knee-jerk reaction, "scratches are beautiful and an you're an ass if you think otherwise," non-answer response that so often (almost invariably) results. For all the emotive constructs you dragged out to cloak your own in, that is essentially what is too. > When somebody gazes upon the lovely scratches on your boat's hull, > perhaps their daydreams of the places you've been will launch their > own dreams of where they might someday go. :-) If you think it's the "lovely scratches" (I do believe that is the first time in many millions of words read that I've every seen those two particular ones adjacent each other, at least without intervening punctuation) that will launch daydreams of travels to come, rather than your own comments about their origin or other more likely memory / fantasy stimulants, than I'm pretty sure I could sell you a large bridge or two downstate for me, or convince you of Buddy Cianci's inevitable canonization ;-) Oh yes, that does end in an emoticon. I couldn't find one for a sarcastic wink, so a simple one will have to do. Good night all. Do pardon me while I fight the urge to grope a highly visible scratch or two on the way to bed. My dreams are vivid enough already, thank you. -.- jwd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
If you get excited enough to type that many heated lines over someones comments about a few scratches, perhaps you need psychiatric help, or maybe just some time paddling! :) Pete --- "James W. Durkin" <jwd_at_phonogram.net> wrote: > On Sat, Sep 28, 2002 at 01:50:35AM -0700, Melissa > Reese wrote: LONG rant about someone's comments on boat scratches deleted. __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Sep 30, 2002 at 04:03:46AM -0700, Peter Staehling wrote: > If you get excited enough to type that many heated > lines over someones comments about a few scratches, > perhaps you need psychiatric help, or maybe just some > time paddling! > :) While I rarely pander to the politically correct crowd, there are areas where one best not tread unless they like a blindfolded stroll through a minefield. Suggesting someone needs psychiatric care, and then couching it in a smiley so as to make it oh so innocuous, is just such an area. Joke about it if you feel you must, but you're nothing but an absolute ass if you do. Psychiatric help suggests psychiatric illness, a legitimate (in every sense of the word) class of diseases of the body, just like heart disease, cancer, and diabetes. Yet the propensity in the western world, particularly within the American quarter, to make light of it at every opportunity, is a major reason the majority of the those that suffer from a diagnosable psychiatric condition (and today's best estimates are that 1 in 4 American adults will suffer such a condition during the course of their adult lives) never seek treatment. The joking, trivialization, and stigmatization represented by callous and clueless comments such as yours, rest in (very large) part at the heart of why this is the case. And, FWIW, these aren't my words, stats, or arguments, but those of family, friends, and colleagues who work in various aspects of psychiatric care and research. Do yourself a favor, put down your copy of "Sea Kayaker's Deep Trouble" for a bit and pick up Andrew Solomon's "The Noonday Demon" (the 2001 National Book Award winner in Nonfiction, if an NBA stamp of approval might persuade you). I can't imagine you wouldn't learn something, even if only that some things, except on the very rarest of occasions, aren't ever funny. As to time paddling, I would love a bit more than I've managed of late. But a shattered tibial plateau followed by a messed up ACL took care of much of this season. But that only fuels my determination to paddle longer into the season of short, cold days to come than I otherwise might. But it hasn't much of anything to do with tolerance for fools and their remarks. I've never suffered either gladly. > LONG rant about someone's comments on boat scratches deleted. One person's rant is another's cogent discourse. If you despise the former, learn to use the <delete> function in your mail software. You'll be happier, so too will I, and I suspect others just might be as well. Heck, maybe you'll get good enough at it you can give lessons :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- WARNING: Stop reading right here if you don't wish to read a (as brief as I can make it) rehash of my objection to the turn this thread took. On various occasions over the last several months, messages were posted to PaddleWise regarding cosmetic issues relating to kayaks, particularly hull and deck damage (scratches, gouges, cracks, etc.) and how to go about repairing such things. Several subscribers, myself among them, have posted repsonse containing either specific advice on how to fix such things or provided pointers to off-list information that would help in the repair process. The questions were legitimate, well meaning, and within the province of the list. So too were the answers. Often, far too often, the thread was high-jacked by subscribers hell bent on sending the message to the original poster, that scratches and other cosmetic damage (or wear, if you prefer) are an essential part of kayaking, and that only tyros and idiots don't understand that fundamental *truth*. The poor soul posting gets dumped upon them the proverbial ton of bricks, when all they wanted to know how to do was fix this or that bit of wear that bothered them on their boat. The message being sent them wasn't just "here is another point of view you might wish to consider," but one of "here is THE point of view, learn it or remain forever ignorant." On at least two such occasions this summer, I received private email from the seed poster of such threads, a) thanking me for information provided and b) asking me what unwritten list etiquette they'd run afoul of that warranted the harsh response belittling their caring about their boat's cosmetics. This behavior does nothing to help those new to the sport or to the list, and everything to give both a tarnished name. I didn't say much, if anything, then, when it might have contributed to a lessening of the knee jerk, stomping propensity sketched out above. I got sick of it all this time around and opted to contribute my two pence. I accept both points of view (cosmetics matter and should be addressed, and that cosmetic damage is really wear and every bit a part of the sport as is getting wet now and again). I don't accept the supremacy of one over the other. And I flatly refuse to tolerate the view that one is *truth* the and the other *foolishness*. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Maybe now we can get back to more interesting, less disagreeable paddling discussion. Then again, maybe not. -- James W. Durkin jwd_at_phonogram.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Monday, September 30, 2002, at 11:26:50 PM PST, James W. Durkin wrote: > On at least two such occasions this summer, I received private email > from the seed poster of such threads, a) thanking me for information > provided and b) asking me what unwritten list etiquette they'd run > afoul of that warranted the harsh response belittling their caring > about their boat's cosmetics. > This behavior does nothing to help those new to the sport or to the > list, and everything to give both a tarnished name. I didn't say > much, if anything, then, when it might have contributed to a > lessening of the knee jerk, stomping propensity sketched out above. > I got sick of it all this time around and opted to contribute my two > pence. [Sorry to have quoted so much, but I felt I needed to quote enough of the above to bring my response into context] It seems to me that it was just about the time I wrote my "ode to scratches" post that you fell ill, and spewed your twopence. That, and the personal attack nature of your twopence, suggests that you interpreted my post as a "...harsh response belittling their caring about their boat's cosmetics." While my prose may have been a wee bit too "purple" for your tastes, it was certainly not meant to belittle *anyone's* point of view on the subject of boaty hull cosmetics. If you thought so, I apologize for not including an explanatory preface to my comments. I should have hoped it was quite obvious that I was merely expressing my own feelings and opinions on the subject (something you claim to believe is perfectly legitimate...though not, apparently, in my case). Please forgive me for not being as clear as I might have been, and I'll forgive you for quite missing my point. I apologize to the list for this off-topic missive, but if I'm going to be flamed, it should at least be for something I meant to say...not because someone misinterpreted what I wrote. -- Melissa (fearless defender of "bad" weather and hull scratches!) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Scrathed or unscratched, New Zealand uses black to get their Americas Cup yachts top go FASTER. It has worked so far and it looks as if some others are trying the same trick. This year's preliminary results will be out in a month or two and the final "crunch" comes early next year. If the final opposition is PRADA like last time it will be grey versus black. And I always though red boats were faster...... Alex . . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Tue, Oct 01, 2002 at 03:19:39PM +1200, Alex Ferguson wrote: > Scrathed or unscratched, New Zealand uses black to get their Americas Cup > yachts top go FASTER. It has worked so far and it looks as if some others > are trying the same trick. This year's preliminary results will be out in a > month or two and the final "crunch" comes early next year. If the final > opposition is PRADA like last time it will be grey versus black. The first truly funny post in this whole thread. Mine, about the desirability of visiting an art museum with Matt Broze, was only half-funny in comparison. But your comments give me visions of the typical autocratic America's Cup skipper having some lowly crew alternate going over the entire hull with a 10X loop, looking for the slightest blemish (be it scratch, protrusion, or barnacle) for banishment to Tasmania. You would never see it though, as they would be under the tarp covering the latest super-keel. Why do we call it the America's Cup anymore anyway? Between the New Zealanders, the Australians, and the Italians, why to we Stateside bother? And, given the blasted time difference, you can't even watch the racing in real-time, should ESPN 99 decide to carry it. > And I always though red boats were faster...... They are actually. I think Tom Bergh showed exactly this (at least when it comes to wee boaties) in his essay on boat speed. Check out the MIKCO site -- it's there somewhere. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>The first truly funny post in this whole thread. Thank you for that comment. > Why do we call it the America's Cup anymore anyway? History lad, history. The first yacht to win in in a race around the Isle of Wight (England) was a schooner called the "America". It was a multi-yacht race and if my memory serves me right the next race in USA was the same. It became a yacht versus yacht event and then they came out with the J class boats before WWII. After USA won it back from Australia a couple of decades ago(?), NZ tried the J class against Dennis Conner and he built a catamaram which was a bit of rule stretching by Dennis. However NZ beat him in the end. > Between the New Zealanders, the Australians, and the Italians, why to we > Stateside bother? Partly probably because USA held the cup for so long and except for Canada, no one else other than England had attempted to try for it (Baron Bic of ball point pens forFrance barely counts). That mere colonials should be the ones to take and hold it could be held to be a snub. Dennnis Connor's quote of "..get off the stage looser.." to the NZ challenger's designer after the event in California missed the point that most of the yachts sailing for the Congressional Cup in San Francisco at the same time were designed by a New Zealander. Even better when Dennis went to the same designer for his round the world yacht. Shows how Farr he was willing to go. We have one TV front-man with a daily show after the news (show at 7.00 p.m. prime time) managed to so rile Dennis that Dennis got up and left in the middle of the interview!! Alex . . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 9/28/2002 1:54:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net writes: > Actually, I kind of lean towards appreciating the beauty of hull > scratches. Every scratch has a story to tell. Unless it's a deep gouge > or crack that threatens the hull's integrity, there's little reason to > fret over a few "beauty marks". Just as wrinkles on the weathered face > of an old fisherman tell of a life lived with sea, sun, and wind, so > do the scratches on your kayak hull tell something of your adventures > on the sea. > Yeah, Chicks dig guys with scars! Tony *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Melissa said: <snip> <<<A boat, like a fine musical instrument, expresses her beauty in many ways...through the lives she touches (and who's lives touch her), and the places she's been. Each time you "repair" a scratch on your boat, you erase a little evidence of your own journey. Do you really want to do that just now? When somebody gazes upon the lovely scratches on your boat's hull, perhaps their daydreams of the places you've been will launch their own dreams of where they might someday go. :-) <snip> It's the lovely scratches that continue up the side of the hull and over the deck on my boat that speak of past trips that might not inspire too many daydreams in others. I have almost as many vertical scratches as horizontal, longitudanal ones. I need to refinish the kayak every few years, lest daydreaming observers of hulls get the wrong idea about touring sea-yaks. Then there's the instructor-trainee from our club who didn't see a freighter wake coming at Race Rocks, so got scratched up real bad, especially his hand which he used to push off the barnacles with. I would have sacrificed my paddle, not my hand, attempting to save the hull. I'd have let my paddle speak tacitly of adventures past, not my hand. Kind of like, "Talk to the paddle, not the hand." Hey, then there's that Duane guy. Glad he didn't drill those holes in plastic, Plastic, PLASTIC! That would have been a little harder to repair than fiberglass. And of course, there's that reverend guy in Alaska who had some kind of boat abuse testing thing going on a few years back. Anyway, fine posting again, as usual Melissa. However, if we meet in the surf some day, I do hope the lives your boat touches doesn't include me (go for the boardies instead). :-) Doug L *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thu, Sep 26, 2002 at 04:06:19PM -0600, Mark Z wrote: > On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, James W. Durkin wrote: >> All gel-coat scratches white. It's the nature of the beast. How >> noticeable or not it will be is partly a function of the color of the >> material. The darker a color is, the easier it is to see white marks >> against it. But even with light colors, scratches can be quite >> visible as well, particularly in bright light. > i have 2 white fglass boats, well, white gel coat, and you can see the > white scratches pretty well. wax the hull, and they're far less visable!! I would imagine that would depend somewhat on the wax. There are some "pure" auto waxes you wouldn't want to use, as they have a yellow tint. Thinned down to the typical thickness they occupy on a smooth surface, they just look shiny. Filling in a scratch, however, they might not look so good. But I've yet to see a boat wax that isn't basically white, so you're advice is pretty well spot on. Except that for deep scratches, I have my doubts that the wax in the deepest part of the scratch would ever cure hard enough to provide something that wouldn't come right off without a little rubbing or other abrasion. That's been my personal experience with good quality (i.e., non-abrasive) boat waxes. When it comes right down to it, what you need is a golden yellow hull, just about the color of kevlar cloth. Any scratches to that would fill in perfectly with pure beeswax. And that stuff will stick to just about anything, through just about anything, and (buffed up) looks good too. By the way, toss your Loctite (red or blue) -- beeswax works better. Random tip, that's all. Obviously, it's getting late, and my coherence is dropping, so I'll shut up now. Almost ... If anyone has the URL for the picture of the British Racing Green Valley Pintail that the owner of Great River Outfitters has (the one where it's busting a wave in some heavy Lake Superior surf), please post it. It's about the best picture of a monotone dark hull/deck boat I've ever seen. And I cna't seem to find it now that I want to look at it again. Of course, it could be scratched to bloody hell, and you would never know it, as it's a) shot at a distance and b) being eaten alive by nasty wave. Great pic though. -.- jwd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e. headers/footers/sig lines/comments from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] I suppose if enough paddles had made noise about it there would be a cure. Oh, as far a scratches on your hull mirroring you paddling experiences, please translate directly to wrinkles and scars; on your body; on your face, telling a history of your life. Any takers???? Fiberglass gun stock makers have had camo patterns for years that aren't green and brown but black, grey or whatever with white spiderweb or random web patterns. Perfect to hide scratches in a composite. Kevin Niilus_at_aol.com 09/28/02 09:45 AM In a message dated 9/28/2002 1:54:08 AM Pacific Daylight Time, melissa_at_bonnyweeboaty.net writes: > Actually, I kind of lean towards appreciating the beauty of hull > scratches. Every scratch has a story to tell. Unless it's a deep gouge > or crack that threatens the hull's integrity, there's little reason to > fret over a few "beauty marks". Just as wrinkles on the weathered face > of an old fisherman tell of a life lived with sea, sun, and wind, so > do the scratches on your kayak hull tell something of your adventures > on the sea. > Yeah, Chicks dig guys with scars! Tony *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Mon, Sep 30, 2002 at 05:24:32AM -0700, knelson_at_captivasoftware.com wrote: > Fiberglass gun stock makers have had camo patterns for years that > aren't green and brown but black, grey or whatever with white > spiderweb or random web patterns. Perfect to hide scratches in a > composite. This is intended light-heartedly. Do not adjust your monitors (or LCD panels). Do not read if strange ideas offend or disturb. No responsibility for increased blood pressure will be accepted. Just a suggestion: Maybe what someone needs to design is a concrete kayak. After all, don't many university Civil Engineering departments participate in an annual concrete canoe design (and construction) contest. And the Brits think kayaks are canoes anyway (ah, best stop there, before I tip over another can of worms). Seriously, with the right bit of engineering, you could probably make it float OK. Heck, you could probably even half-roll it, do a wet exit, and still keep it from sinking. And if you picked the right concrete composition, it would be impervious to all but large caliber Depleted Uranium rounds fired at close range. Of course, it might look ugly as sin, be a bitch to left up on top of the ole Jeep Wagoneer, but it damn well wouldn't scratch much. Besides, it you built it as a double and crewed it just right, you could use it as a strategic weapon in an effort to rid the Nation's waterways of those noisy Jet-Ski beasts. Sort of a modern take-off on Civil War era naval warfare (ram the enemy, sink 'em, and run like hell before the real boats find and sink you). Any takers? -.- jwd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
James said:* Alex had said: > Scrathed or unscratched, New Zealand uses black to get their Americas Cup > yachts top go FASTER *<<<The first truly funny post in this whole thread. Mine, about the desirability of visiting an art museum with Matt Broze, was only half-funny in comparison.>>> <snips to Alex and James> Well, I poked some fun at Melissa's post too, but I guess it didn't even get a groan from you for my pathetic Canadian humour attempts, James. And, wasn't Peter's comments about "fluorescent green" kind of cute? Though, I do see from the above that you think of yourself (in context) as "half-funny." I'd have to give it a half-funny too, to be consistent, but I'll give you zero for humility and sensitivity. And zero for your late night rant at Melissa. Mine was meant as good natured fun with Melissa, 'cause she knows how much most of us long-time Paddlewisers enjoy her prose and perspectives. There's folks on this list that have way more class than most of us here -- like Peter O and Melissa -- for example, and the list is richer for their participation. You come across as a very intelligent individual, so why you misinterpreted what Melissa was attempting to communicate is totally beyond me -- but then many things are. Well, Melissa can fight her own fights and defend herself without others jumping in I'm sure, but I really think you owe her an apology. I'll send her a half-appology for my poke at her take on scratches. Hopefully she knows me well enough. I for one have _not_ been able to eradicate out of my mind over the last few days something Melissa said recently in her post. To quote: "Why should I be so anxious to erase these happy visual and tactile reminders of time so well spent in this life?" Truly, we are given one very short life, gone in but a breath. Spending time in a kayak slicing through the wet veneer of our planet's blue surface -- a planet that might have better been called Oceanus -- helps us to account for the moments we are here, time that is so easily lost with our normal terrestrially-biased activities that preoccupy most urbanites. Melissa's posts have only ever even lightly "scratched the surface" of all the available thought provoking prose one could write about when it comes to paddling (and she is one of the better posters in this regard). The cure for black hulls? Wasn't it to lighten up. Amen. Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I wrote: >>>>>That might depend on whether you found highly visible scratches in your gelcoat to be ugly or beautiful.<<<<<, jwd wrote: >>>>>>Man, I would hate to spend time with you in an art museum :-)<<<<< Why James, do you have something against Jackson Pollock? ;-) I lean towards Melissa on this one, and that was my point, there are two or more ways of looking at gelcoat scratches and to some they might be beautiful. Melissa elaborated that view perfectly. I used to be a professional freestyle skier. I don't ski nearly as often as I used to but on average I still break about one pair of skis each year. I mourn the ones I really liked, but there is no way that I could ski like I like to ski and not at least scratch up the skis as well as risk breaking them (and me--more than ever now that I'm 56). Some paddle in such a way that they rarely put a scratch on their beloved kayak. They launch from piers or wade in shallow water on entering or exiting the kayaks. Even then they discover that their Yakima Mako saddles puts some scuffs on their gelcoat (even though they cleaned all the sand of the kayak-or never let it touch the sand in the first place) and are furious with Yakima for putting out such a product (I had a customer like that today, glad I didn't sell him the rack, just the kayak that got scuffed). If however you decide to paddle in the surf you had better be ready for at least some serious scratches if not do a few major repairs. Doug of course being our extreme example here and he has had the same kayak for something like 20 years (well at least partly the same-it does somehow keep gaining weight). Every few weeks I get someone who asks me how the fix the scratches they got in their gelcoat. I would like to help them, but I know of no good way for them to do this that either won't make it look worse, have some other serious downside like prohibitive cost, an ungodly amount of time consumed, or the addition of several pounds of added weight (or all of the above). I assure them that even deep gouges aren't doing any real harm and that no disaster will befall them if they don't fix them as long as they are not leaking water or somehow disturbing the water seriously as the kayak slides through it (as a major chip in the gelcoat at the bow waterline might do). I show them how to put electrical tape on the bottom edge of their paddle blades so as to not scuff the gelcoat on the deck if they bump it with the paddle blade. While I think I'm pretty anal-compulsive myself, given all the "collecting" of kayak data and stolen kayak data I do, I see that there are folks out there even more compulsive than I. A few weeks ago I bought a sweat shirt at a garage sale for the slogan (as I don't normally wear sweat shirts). It said "Does anal compulsive have a hyphen?" I prefer to take good care of my toys. My father used to open all the doors in his 1960 VW bus whenever it was in his garage (so the door seals could uncompress and relax and would do their job for a lot longer). As he also waxed it every six months, that car still looked nearly new into the 1990's (although it had nearly 300,000 miles on it). A cop once tried to give him a ticket for having too old of license plate style on what was obvious to him a newer car. However, even my dad scratched up his skis. My mother was an impeccable housekeeper. So I had a pretty compulsive upbringing. Regarding gelcoat though, I think adopting Melissa's attitude will probably pay health benefits in the long run, if just in lowered blood pressure. Quite frankly, after reading the rant Melissa received from jwd I wasn't sure at first if it was tongue in cheek or Sp*ns*nman had returned under an assumed name. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Me too. The same sort of thing is often said about Bibles. The ones with marked up tattered pages and bindings held together with tape actually get read. The scratches disappear when they are wet. Bob ----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Broze" <mkayaks_at_oz.net> > I wrote: > >>>>>That might depend on whether you found highly visible scratches in your > gelcoat to be ugly or beautiful.<<<<<, > > I lean towards Melissa on this one, and that was my point, there are two or > more ways of looking at gelcoat scratches and to some they might be > beautiful. Melissa elaborated that view perfectly. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>> Why do we call it the America's Cup anymore anyway? Between the New Zealanders, the Australians, and the Italians, why to we Stateside bother? >> It's because the cup was first won by the yacht America -- nothing to do with the nationality of the current (or previous) owners. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I think it best to publicly sign-off the "black hulls" thread at this point. While certainly an interesting, entertaining, and occasionally informative exchange, at this point (at least to my senses) what's left is more heat than light. If only from a signal-to-noise ratio perspective, it's time to move on to other things. Besides, real work beckons, so the water and PaddleWise will have to wait their turn once again. Anyone owed a response from me, either from a post to the list or through email to me directly, will receive it privately, as time allows. I'll do my best not to miss anyone in the process. It's certainly been an interesting, entertaining, and occasionally informative exchange. I'm glad not to have missed it. Sometimes a spirited discussion is as invigorating as a good, fast paddle on a brisk fall day. I stand by all that I've said, from my first post in the thread to the last. The only thing I might change, given 20/20 hindsight, is that in message (id that is) <20021001012650.A3705_at_cayuga.phonogram.net> I would have split the distinct discussion sections in two, posting each as a separate message, so as to make the delineation even clearer. Good paddling to all. And may your boats remain just as pristine or worn as suits your particular fancy. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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