After looking at the different "stock" deck rigging solutions offered by stitch-and-glue manufacturers, I'm considering borrowing a deck rigging idea from skin-on-frame boats for my Arctic Tern: drilling holes slightly smaller than the shock cord diameter directly through the deck and threading the shock cords so that they expand to fill the holes. Has anybody tried this and want to discourage/encourage me? Any other ideas? It seems like a very elegant low-profile rigging solution(nothing to hook your clothing during re-entry), and no more holes than other eye-pad or webbing contraptions. For reference, I was looking at http://www.skinboats.com/finish.html cheers, Severn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> for my Arctic Tern: drilling holes slightly smaller than the shock cord > diameter directly through the deck and threading the shock cords so that > they expand to fill the holes. > >Has anybody tried this and want to discourage/encourage me? Yes, discourge you that is. > Any other ideas? The only real concern is the use of bungy. You don't need it though it can be handy to hold a map down on the deck. You DO need deck lines and they should NOT be bungy. Rope deck lines all the way round the edge of the deck for a REAL (TM) sea kayak. You can tie the bungy across the deck to the decklines if needed. I use a deck bag of fine mesh in front of me, clipped to the decklines. It holds navigation instruments (ruler) waterbottle, towline, knife, sunscreen etc.) and a map can be slid under it and still be visible between the bag and the cockit rim. There is bungy often hooked across the aft deck holding a spare paddle though even they can be slipped under the deckbag in front. Alex . . *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I store my boats outside on home made racks. The blue plastic tarp covering them had turned to straw and needed replacement. I was in a local store that sells catering supplies and saw a roll of plastic table cloth for picnics and such. 40 inches wide, 100 feet long at $11.95. They even had a roll in a color that comes close to that of my house. My boats are now covered with that table cloth, under the bungies that hold the boats and a line tied around each end staying put in spite of a fresh breeze. They look way better than the old tarps and are easier to deal with. Don't know how long they'll last, but for the price, who cares? Regards Bob *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I agree with everything Alex says. You can look in the kayakoutfitting.org below for a couple of solutions. Alex Ferguson wrote: > > > for my Arctic Tern: drilling holes slightly smaller than the shock cord > > diameter directly through the deck and threading the shock cords so that > > they expand to fill the holes. > > > >Has anybody tried this and want to discourage/encourage me? > > Yes, discourge you that is. > > > Any other ideas? > > The only real concern is the use of bungy. You don't need it though it can > be handy to hold a map down on the deck. You DO need deck lines and they > should NOT be bungy. Rope deck lines all the way round the edge of the deck > for a REAL (TM) sea kayak. > > You can tie the bungy across the deck to the decklines if needed. I use a > deck bag of fine mesh in front of me, clipped to the decklines. It holds > navigation instruments (ruler) waterbottle, towline, knife, sunscreen etc.) > and a map can be slid under it and still be visible between the bag and the > cockit rim. > > There is bungy often hooked across the aft deck holding a spare paddle > though even they can be slipped under the deckbag in front. > > Alex > -- gabriel l romeu ø http://studiofurniture.com ø ø http://journalphoto.org ø ø http://kayakoutfitting.org ø ø http://kayaknavigation.com ø *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Gabriel, Does QCC Kayaks sell those nifty recessed fittings, or are they just an example? I must admit I'm reluctant to put too large holes in the S&G hull because intuitively it seems like it introduces more weakness rather than spreading out the load. Alex, I agree completely about the perimeter deck line (needing to be rope, not bungee). Haven't gotten there yet, though I'll have a lot of regular pad eyes left over if I don't use them for the shock cord. One wouldn't want to use regular line through holes in the hull, of course, because it wouldn't fill the holes and keep the water out. The Pygmy pad eyes seem like they could get broken off easily during a re-entry, which is why I'm looking for an alternative. Does this Real Kayaks have a web site? ;-) Severn *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
At 12:22 AM 9/30/02 -0400, Severn Clay wrote: >Gabriel, >Does QCC Kayaks sell those nifty recessed fittings, or are they just an >example? I must admit I'm reluctant to put too large holes in the S&G hull >because intuitively it seems like it introduces more weakness rather than >spreading out the load. I believe that QCC kayaks does sell the fittings. I was asking the same questions that you did when I was considering what to do for deck rigging on the cedar strip Outer Island I finished in June. You might be interested in my experiences. I also thought the recessed deck fittings (actually, thru hull fittings) might be a good way to go. I contacted QCC directly about them. They told me that the fittings would probably *not* work for a wood boat because the sleeve was not long enough. They sent me a sample and while I didn't try it on a test panel (actually, the piece I cut out for the cockpit) it looked like it likely wouldn't work. The cost of the deck fittings was also pretty high. I've also seen some nice deck fittings on a variety of productions boats like the ones on the Kajaksport page <http://www.gokajaksport.com/hardware.html> that could go into a recess. I decided that the price was a bit more than I wanted to spend and extra work in cutting the holes and building the recesses was more than I wanted to do after working on the boat for five months. The Newfound woodworks page also lists the Kajaksport fitting that has a center screw so that they can be attached directly to the deck. They run about $3.50 but look like they'd get the job done. On my Northbay I actually did what you initial described (bungies going into the deck) for my hatch cover hold-downs and the set of bungies just in front of the cockpit. I got the idea after seeing Doug Van Dorens Betsie Bay Valkerie. They also run the decklines through the hull. I didn't look at how they fixed the bungies/cord under the deck but had to wonder how they kept water from going through the hulls in such a way that it would be easy to replace them if necessary. My solution was decidedly low-tech. I bought some wood dowel and cut it into pieces about 1" long, then drilled a hole through the middle and epoxied the piece under the deck centered around the feed through hole. The hole in the dowel was big enough such that a knot tied in the bungie would prevent it from going back through the deck. I simply plugged the hole underneath with a cork. I'm about the revarnish the deck on the Northbay and pulled off all the deck lines. Most of the corks were so dry that they just fell apart. They'll have to be replaced. I have heard of another method which uses ping-pong balls, cut in half, and attached under the deck with 3M 5200. I've also wondered how cutting a piece of inner tube stretched around the bungie/deck line under the deck might work. Finally, if you're going to drill holes through the deck be sure to use the "drill-fill-drill" method. That is; drill a hole larger than what you'll need, fill it with epoxy/resin, then drill through the epoxy/resin so that the wood is protected. I also played around with the soft-loop webbing fed through the hole technique as described on several sites. Again, using the piece I cut out of the deck for the cockpit I cut a rectangular hole (with the corners rounded) and then filled it in with epoxy/resin with some pigment to make it black. I slot was cut in the middle so that a folded over piece of webbing would just fit through. Then I cut a small piece of wood (from 1/4" luan) with a similar slot in it. About 3" of webbing was folded over, fed through the slot in the wood and then bent underneath (and tacked with hot glue). The piece of wood was then painted with epoxy/resin to attach the webbing to the wood. The webbing was then fed through the "test hull" so that just a small loop of webbing showed through. I glued the wood underneath the hull with some 3M 5200. It looked pretty good but I thought it was more work than I wanted to spend. It took about 45 minutes to make each loop and I figured I'd need about 14 of them. Ross Liedy describes that technique with pictures at hs website (http://www.blueheronkayaks.com/kayak/oi/deckfittings.htm>. (Looks like Ross has a new website!). Here's still another possible method attaching decklines to the hull. I did this for my flush mount hatch cover under deck tie downs. I took a length of pine about 3/8" thick, 1" wide, and a couple of feet long and cut a 1/4" notch down it's length with my router table. Then I turned it over and beveled the edges, then cut it into pieces about 1 1/2" long. I glued the pieces to the inside of the hull and then just threaded a bungie cord through the notch. So what did I ended up doing for deck lines on my Outer Island? I went with the simple method of folding over a piece of webbing and using a brass screw with a finish washer. The CLC website has a good picture of the method on the "Fitting Out" section on the Shop Tips page. I figure that if I want to do something more complex later it would be easy to fill in and cover up the holes. >Alex, >I agree completely about the perimeter deck line (needing to be rope, not >bungee). Haven't gotten there yet, though I'll have a lot of regular pad >eyes left over if I don't use them for the shock cord. One wouldn't want to >use regular line through holes in the hull, of course, because it wouldn't >fill the holes and keep the water out. The Pygmy pad eyes seem like they >could get broken off easily during a re-entry, which is why I'm looking for >an alternative. Does this Real Kayaks have a web site? ;-) You can get those "U" shaped pad eyes in plastic or nylon. They're pretty easy to find in plastic and that's what many commercial vendors have used. I've never seen one break but a pad-eye made of nylon would be more durable. The Wilderness Systems Arctic Hawk uses pad-eyes for it's decklines and they seem to work well. I essentially copied the Arctic Hawk deckline layout for my Northbay. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e. headers/footers/sig lines/comments from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] I believe so Severn. at the time I put that up, they did have them available. If you find otherwise, see if they can hook you up to the manufacturer and let me know the process so I can change the site. I had fiberglassed the deck of my Northbay so I do not think it would compromise the strength. For just wood and epoxy, I don't have a clue but would imagine that if they were glued in with a good mix of silica, it should be fine. Better than just raw small holes anyway. gabriel Severn Clay wrote: > > Gabriel, > Does QCC Kayaks sell those nifty recessed fittings, or are they just an > example? I must admit I'm reluctant to put too large holes in the S&G hull > because intuitively it seems like it introduces more weakness rather than > spreading out the load. > > Alex, > I agree completely about the perimeter deck line (needing to be rope, not > bungee). Haven't gotten there yet, though I'll have a lot of regular pad > eyes left over if I don't use them for the shock cord. One wouldn't want to > use regular line through holes in the hull, of course, because it wouldn't > fill the holes and keep the water out. The Pygmy pad eyes seem like they > could get broken off easily during a re-entry, which is why I'm looking for > an alternative. Does this Real Kayaks have a web site? ;-) > > Severn > -- gabriel l romeu ø http://studiofurniture.com ø ø http://journalphoto.org ø ø http://kayakoutfitting.org ø ø http://kayaknavigation.com ø *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Severn Clay wrote: >The Pygmy pad eyes seem like they could get broken off easily during a re-entry, which is why I'm looking for an alternative. I busted a similar padeye off of a student's Eddyline kayak during a rough water rescue class. I felt a little bad but...it was real world testing! They're definitely not durable enough for heavy use. Don't know if Pygmy or other manufacturers use a different or same fitting. Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In addition to the other great deck rigging suggestions John Fereira mentioned, I love using this fitting, also shown on Gabriels site: http://www.studiofurniture.com/diary/kayak/outfit/moroske/index.html I retrofitted these to my Guillemot, and am installing them on the Cormorant I'm currently building (before seaming the hull and deck). Unfortunately, it takes two holes for each line attachment point, but that's a small matter. Using 3/8" vinyl tubing, you can just pass a 1/4" bungie and 1/4" poly perimeter line through each fitting. If you wanted any more lines to pass, you'd need to install another fitting. I considered using a larger vinyl tubing, but it would've taken too much space within the boat...plus it would still be hard to control the "collapse" factor when you bend the tubing over, so I'd still recommend a second fitting, rather than a larger one. Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Severne Clay asked: >>>>>.After looking at the different "stock" deck rigging solutions offered by stitch-and-glue manufacturers, I'm considering borrowing a deck rigging idea from skin-on-frame boats for my Arctic Tern: drilling holes slightly smaller than the shock cord diameter directly through the deck and threading the shock cords so that they expand to fill the holes. Has anybody tried this and want to discourage/encourage me? Any other ideas? It seems like a very elegant low-profile rigging solution(nothing to hook your clothing during re-entry), and no more holes than other eye-pad or webbing contraptions.<<<<<< We have not only tried this we have been doing this for the shock cords in front of the cockpit of Mariner kayaks for over 20 years now. It works well (or we would have been doing it differently for about 19 years). The major benefit is that nothing sticks up (not even a knot) to bark your knuckles on when paddling. The only trouble it caused was the one time that the holes were accidentally drilled with a drill bit that was one size too large and then the holes let a little water drip in (until we epoxied them closed and re-drilled them smaller). The other main problem they have caused us is when an old customers who has finally worn out the shock cord and wants to replace can't figure out how to get that big thick shock cord with the even blunter splayed out end through that tiny little hole in the deck. So here is how to do it: cut the cord and then peel back the casing about a 1/2 inch and cut away the rubber strands (preferably leaving them just a little longer in the middle of the bundle. Slide the casing back where it was so that it forms a tit on the end of the shock cord. Melt the end of the tit so you have a small hard knob on the end that will still fit through the small hole you made in the deck (but test it first on a scrap piece to determine the smallest hole size you shock cord can slide through when it is stretched). Tie a figure 8 knot in the opposite end of the shock cord for a stop and put the tit end through one of the forward holes from the inside of the kayak. Grab the end of the tit that sticks out with a pair of pliers and stretch the shock cord as far as it will go and then slide it through the hole. Do the same thing going down through the hole on the other side of the kayak and then move the tit back a row and thread up from the inside again. We use three cords showing across the deck but you could cross the deck as many times as you would like this way by using a longer or shorter shock cord piece. The cord should not be stretched when it is in place but all the slack should be taken out of it. If the shock cord stretches out some over time or with use simply tighten it up and tie another figure 8 knot in the end and cut off the excess and melt the cover so it doesn't fray. In a wood skin I highly recommend you use the drill/epoxy/re-drill a smaller hole method that someone already mentioned. If the deck skin is thin you may wish to reinforce it some inside where you intend to drill the holes. We have used the black nylon eyelets on the rear deck of many hundreds of kayaks for over 20 years as well and I can't recall any having ever failed in all those years (and I personally don't hesitate to pick up a loaded kayak by the deck lines between two of them). Black is better than natural nylon color here because the suns rays can't penetrate the surface much through the black color to degrade the nylon inside. If the eyelets are farther away from a cockpit or hatch opening than you can reach with a socket wrench tape the wrench to a stick or vacuum cleaner tube (as we have) so one person can hold the nylock nut up in place while the other turns the screw. Make sure the screws are short enough not to stick out beyond the rounded cap of the nylock nuts (so they don't tear at gear bags) but long enough to engage the nylock part of the nut (so they won't come loose). Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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