You said: <snip> <<< It was noted by someone watching that when paddling in strong winds the jacket inflates, which could interfere with control. This has not been my experience. >>> I also wonder if the jacket-over-PFD would impede swimming due to the lack of a tight fit. You also said: <<< Moving on, someone on Paddlewise mentioned that jackets worn this way would cover any emergency equipment carried on the PFD, and this brings up the question of what sea paddlers do carry. >>> <snip> I've taken to wearing an inflatable vest (by Mustang). I still use my regular PFD for surf, etc., but find the vest much more comfortable. Due to lack of pockets, I modified the belt area of the vest by adding two nylon containers. The large one holds my SeaSeat (mini life raft) that is deployed with a pull on the velcro lip. In the other bag I carry a mini-flashlight by Pelican, a small ARC strobe, 3 Skyblazer flares, whistle (on tether with numb-finger operable clip), mini-space blanket, rescue mirror with ctr. sighting, firestarter apparatus, sealed money, and spare vehicle key. On the vest I simply clip my folding rescue knife to one of the chest toggles. Warning: some paddlers have added the small strobes to the inside of the vest, which can be rolled inside and velcroed for use in an emergency. The problem is the usually available style of strobe has a stainless steel clip-pin, that if knocked loose, may puncture the inflatable bladder. This has happened to some Navy dudes I know. On my older PFD, I carry all the above stuff in various pockets, with the exception of a permanently mounted strobe on the back of the Lotus PFD. I have noticed that the inflatable vests blow out their velcro closures in rough water, which isn't a huge problem, it is just that the flapping nylon gets kind of annoying. BTW, on my kayak, I carry a hand held flare gun with a bandoleer of flares in a front-mounted deck bag, with a tow-line/throw-line in the same net bag. In my above-thigh day hatch, I carry the VHF, cell phone, smoke flares, sunscreen, sunglasses, etc., etc., etc. In my rear deck bag I carry a second paddlefloat, large orange rescue bag, parachute flare, and hand-held flare. This last flare is very important for helping rescue craft, etc., actually locate you after firing off an aerial flare. I'd like to carry my VHF on my person, but need to purchase one of the new, compact units. Then again, that setup might make me more inclined to take greater risks. :-) Doug Lloyd *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The recent thread about what people carry on their PFD's got me thinking. When I read about what folks carry I have mixed feelings. On one hand I think that all of the gear is a good thing. On the other hand, most of it is a means of getting outside assistance. I have to wonder if it wouldn't be better put more emphasis on taking measures so that you don't need assistance from outside your group. Self reliance first and reliance on your fellow trip members second should be the emphasis. My background is whitewater paddling and we always figured if outside assistance was required to save our lives we would die (especially on remote runs). I think we tend to make better decisions when we think like that. We took risks, but we evaluated them on the basis of what would happen if no outside help were available, and then accepted that level of risk and whatever consequuences it might have. Outside help didn't enter into the equation at all. I am not against signaling devices and so on, but suspect that they do give folks an unhealthy feeling of invincibility. This is especially true in our society where no one seems to think they are responsible for their own actions. Perhaps on the open ocean things like epirbs make sense, but on a body of water only a few miles wide I figure I should be prepared to swim, drift, or be blown to shore (even if the water is cold). Would I turn down assistance if I was 3 miles from shore on the Upper Chesapeake Bay? No, but I should be able to deal without it. Am I all alone here, or do others share this opinion? Pete __________________________________________________ Yahoo! - We Remember 9-11: A tribute to the more than 3,000 lives lost http://dir.remember.yahoo.com/tribute *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
writes: (much abreviated) "The recent thread about what people carry on their PFD's got me thinking. When I read about what folks carry I have mixed feelings. On one hand I think that all of the gear is a good thing. On the other hand, most of it is a means of getting outside assistance. I have to wonder if it wouldn't be better put more emphasis on taking measures so that you don't need assistance from outside your group. Am I all alone here, or do others share this opinion?" I don't think your alone at all, and I believe most responsible people understand the program. But experience is overestimated, conditions can get out of hand, just plain sh*t happens. And....... there are people out there without a clue.Going out with nothing is just as bad as thinking someone else will be responsible for getting you out of trouble every time. Our taxes pay for the Coast Guards gas for a rescue, or a body retreival, and there's always the question of placing someone else in harms way due to your stupidity. I have no problems with it, if your diligent, and things do happen to the most experienced, but if your in real trouble, help out with a star flare, smoke, or whatever. It's not fair to have a large group of people searching who knows how many square miles of ocean for you with no clue where you might be. Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Peter wrote: On one hand I think that all of the gear is a good thing. On the other hand, most of it is a means of getting outside assistance. I have to wonder if it wouldn't be better put more emphasis on taking measures so that you don't need assistance from outside your group. Kevin Wrote: I have no problems with it, if your diligent, and things do happen to the most experienced, but if your in real trouble, help out with a star flare, smoke, or whatever. It's not fair to have a large group of people searching who knows how many square miles of ocean for you with no clue where you might be. I would add that most SAR groups would rather rescue a live person than retrieve a lifeless body. I have to believe it is cheaper overall to rescue someone that has signaling gear then to have to search and search with only the most vague of ideas as to a victims location. Please understand I have the same mixed feelings as Peter. I question myself every time I go paddling. In the end the gear wins out based on Murphy's Universal Laws. "If I bring it, I won't need it. If on the other hand I leave it at home, it could mean seriously bad mojo." I would rather have a novice over-equipped and alive than under-equipped and dead. I can teach the novice about safety and seamanship but only as long as he's breathing. Jed *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Backcountry discussion groups debate the ever shifting and variable contents list for The Ten Essentials, items one should always take with them when hiking, skiing, rafting, etc. Part of this discussion also involves when people tend to carry their kits, their full kits, or modified kits...day hikes... peak bagging...risk analysis..etc. I carry a full or slightly modified ten essentials kit at all times. Silly? Perhaps. But my experience is that assumed prediction of conditions to be encountered will eventually prove you wrong. And I've probably used the items in my kit to help others encountered on the trail, far more often than for my own use. I don't decide to stay at altitude in a brewing electrical storm because of the first aid materials in my rucksack, or because I have been trained in administering CPR. And I can't imagine a more foolhardy decision than to go for an exposed crossing in extreme conditions simply because I have three parachute flares tucked behind my backband, or an extra compass & whistle lanyard on my PFD. It's been my experience that those who are engaged enough in a given activity to plan, practice and pack for safety, are more likely to carry a useful kit as a matter of course...attached to their PFDs, stowed in a bailout pack, placed where they can be accessed under duress. Those who attach baubles and gear doo-dads for appearance's sake, or to provide a false sense of security, are more prone to making the series of faulty decisions that often, though not always or solely contribute to crisis. -Will *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
[Moderator's Note: Content unaltered. Excessive quoting (i.e. headers/footers/sig lines/comments from previous posts, etc.) have been removed. Please edit quoted material in addition to removing header/trailers when replying to posts.] Peter, et. al., As a veteran of both WW and Bigwater Kayaking I can heartily agree with your position ...and would add a bit from personal experience to it. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY --------------------------- I completely agree with your position of having a mental fix on being 'self-reliant', as opposed to expecting help to be available. This, in other frames is called, Personal Responsibility. Consider the consquences, prepare, make your choices, and then deal with the outcomes .. Without expectation of outside help or assistance. IF it comes, fine. But DO NOT expect it or ACT LIKE IT. You are correct. If when we venture afield, we planned and executed with the understanding that the 'rescue party' is --> YOU .. and YOU ALONE .. then our choices will be greatly influenced on just how 'risky' WE want to be with OURSELVES. I haven't yet 'pulled out' or 'passed up' a potentially risky venture that I've lived to regret. The key factor here - at least for me - is that I'd rather live to paddle another day, than to experience a ONCE IN A LIFETIME hair-raising thrill. I have too many DECEASED friends who didn't head that kind of advice. Honesty with yourself - concerning your own abilities - when you see that YOU are the only source of help and assistance, is vital to survival in any confrontation with nature; kayaking, canoeing, climbing, hiking .. you name the outdoor activity and the possbile delamination of the best of plans, no matter how safe and well planned. Nature rules. And rules with finality. Now .. I personally carry 3-mile Walkie Talkies + xtra batteries on long outtings. I use them when I fly-fish in bellyboats in large bodies of water as well. I don't use them to seek help, but to keep in contact with my companions. I carry flares and emergency kits to suit the conditions expected and some unexpected. I stow the emergency materials in the hatches of the kayak and carry only the basic essentials in my life jacket. It is highly unlikely that I will become totally seperated from the boat .. but in the event that it should happen -(big waterfalls do exist in many areas where I paddle on rivers-and I do NOT intend to stay with a boat that heading OVER the edge!!)- I have enough basics in my life jacket to make it out of just about any place in North America; barring the extreme north. And I don't paddle there - at least not yet .. "8^) Which BTW .. on another thread -about shoes vs. sandles- I wear Teva Shoes. For the very reason stated above. I don't carry shoes on or in my life jacket .. but IF I need to 'walk out' of a place .. I HAVE SHOES on. And I carry two pair of socks for that very reason-in the areas that could demand it). I wouldn't want to walk 50 or 100 miles in sandles; not through pine forest and thick underbrush. And fortunately in most of North America, between the 30th and 50th parallel, walks of over 50 miles are rather rare. One other thing .. although I do a lot of Solo activity, I try to travel difficult and massive expanses with companionship. If the travel is Solo for sure, then I file a complete route plan and leave it with repsonsible people who either need to know (such as Gov't officials, dockmasters, harbormasters and the like) or who can be counted on to notify authorities if I don't show up (or contact them) in a timely manner. The basics of survial are steeped in the liberal use of common sense judgement. Those who fail to do this either don't make it .. or learn the value of it - the HARD WAY. les > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:owner-paddlewise_at_paddlewise.net]On Behalf Of Peter Staehling > Subject: [Paddlewise] Safety Gear Dependence > > > The recent thread about what people carry on their > PFD's got me thinking. When I read about what folks > carry I have mixed feelings. On one hand I think that > all of the gear is a good thing. On the other hand, > most of it is a means of getting outside assistance. > I have to wonder if it wouldn't be better put more > emphasis on taking measures so that you don't need > assistance from outside your group. Self reliance > first and reliance on your fellow trip members second > should be the emphasis. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I would be surprised if many kayakers let their safety gear con them into making foolish decisions. I carry lots of safety gear on my PFD and in my boat, but I can't say that it has ever entered my calculations in deciding whether or not to go out or stay on the water. My first line of defense in any situation on the water is to stay upright, and none of the safety gear I carry -- strobe, flares, VHF, knife, compass, signal mirror, emergency survival bag, float bag, stirrup, tow line, etc. -- can help in the least with that. That gear only for backup in case I miscalculate. I never plan on using it. Chuck Holst *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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