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From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 18:16:51 -0400
My Standard Horizon HX350S has not been holding a charge well leading to
some interesting situations out on the water.  :-)  I decided to get another
radio and deal with the charging situation later (it will eventually give me
a second radio to lend out, which was on my mind anyway).

I bought a Standard Horizon HX460S, which I am real familiar with, having
reviewed it in my newsletter as well as borrowed one at times from the
Downtown Boathouse and from friends.

It is generally a good radio, certainly in its small size and strong send
and receive power.  And has the virtue of being powered by a lithium battery
that charge at any time a la cell phones without need to discharge. (NIcads
are a pain to discharge and charge in order to avoid the battery developing
a memory that results in less power.  I did everything in my power to be
careful on discharging/charging the HX350 but probably this wasn't enough.)

Good news.  The company has upgraded the provided Lithium battery with the
HX460S from the original 7.2 voltage/1100mAh to a 7.4/1300mAh battery.  So
you get more juice for longer periods between charges.  If you buy one now,
make certain that it has the upgraded battery.  The packaging with the radio
should have a few slips of loose paper in the back of the instruction manual
noting that the enclosed battery is the FNB-80LI that replaces the CNB460.

I bought mine at Consumer Marine Electronics for $244 plus $6 shipping.
http://www.consumersmarine.com.  Radios continue to drop in price.  So they
are coming to a decently affordable level.  The HX350S goes for $199 for
example.

ralph diaz
--
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Ralph Diaz . . . Folding Kayaker newsletter
PO Box 0754, New York, NY 10024
Tel: 212-724-5069; E-mail: rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com
"Where's your sea kayak?"----"It's in the bag."
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From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:09:07 -0400
I have the HX260S and wonder if I'm hurting my battery life.  I listen to the weather before I leave the house.  While I'm paddling, I leave it turned off, but after a couple hours, or if the weather looks like it's changing, I check the weather again.  Consequently, I only use it about 10 minutes for each outing.  At that rate, I can go many weeks without draining and recharging.

Am I okay, or would it be better to leave it on overnight to drain, and then recharge the next day?  How many days/weeks should I let it go before purposely draining and recharging?

Rick - Poquoson, VA

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From: ralph diaz <rdiaz_at_ix.netcom.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 09:37:36 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com>

> I have the HX260S and wonder if I'm hurting my battery life.  I listen to
the weather before I leave the house.  While I'm paddling, I leave it turned
off, but after a couple hours, or if the weather looks like it's changing, I
check the weather again.  Consequently, I only use it about 10 minutes for
each outing.  At that rate, I can go many weeks without draining and
recharging. <
>
> Am I okay, or would it be better to leave it on overnight to drain, and
then recharge the next day?  How many days/weeks should I let it go before
purposely draining and recharging? <

It is something I really have no perfect answer for.  I know of some people
who just continue to top off the charge on the radio fter each use and then
occasionally doing a total drain and recharge.  My practice with the HX350
was to use the radio over a few outings and then drain it totally and
recharge carefully (i.e. not exceeding the 16 hours of charging as
recommended); I never topped off to avoid the Nicad battery developing a
memory that would led to less than full charging eventually.  If I had a
situation coming up that I knew I would use and depend on the radio a lot
(one of the swims in which I lead the kayak escorting for), then I would do
the drain and recharge to make certain I had a lot of juice in the battery.

This year the battery appears to not be dependable and the radio failed in
one swim.  But it was one in which we were in a stationary zone defense for
a less than 1-mile swim (a test of the triathlon course for the big race the
next day).  Communication faded while I was getting into position but we had
all our kayakers already clearly assigned and no changes appeared necessary.
I could not transmit.  I waited about 15 minutes for some residual charge to
return and transmitted quickly to the race organizers that my radio was
failing so they would know the situation.

Since then the radio continues to show a full charge and then drop down to
almost nothing on the indicator even when I am hardly using the radio.  I
think the radio is 3 years old.  Maybe that is the life expectancy of a
battery.

ralph diaz



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From: Ulli Hoeger <uhoeger_at_dal.ca>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 11:24:58 -0300
Hi,

Reasons to buy the ICOM M3A 2 years ago were the good price, and its 
capability to take AA batteries. The battery case takes 6 NiCd 
rechargables or 6 AA batteries.  It is also the housing for the 
NiCd's for recharging, but most of the time I use a separate charger 
which offers the option to decharge the accus before recharging.

Other radios don't offer the battery option at all, or after buying a 
separate battery container.  If I go out on a trip were I really need 
the radio I use fresh batteries.  They last longer than NiCd's and 
don't drop as fast.  For normal use I put the NiC's in and carry a 
set of spares just  in case.  Changing batteries on the water isn't 
fun, but so far there was always a chance to do it before heading out 
again.

If I  would consider buying a new radio I guess I would look for this 
feature again........

Ulli

Ulli Hoeger
Dept. Physiology and Biophysics
Dalhousie University 
Halifax, B3H 4H7
Nova Scotia, Canada
 
Phone: INT 902 494 2673
Fax:  INT 902 494 1685
Phone 2: 902 497 4045

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From: Kees van der Meij <keesvdm_at_xs4all.nl>
subject: [Paddlewise] rechargeable batteries (was: Standard Horizon HX460S)
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 15:55:11 +0200
>
> Am I okay, or would it be better to leave it on overnight to drain, and
then recharge the next day?  How many days/weeks should I let it go before
purposely draining and recharging?
>
It depend on the type of batteries that are used, and the circuitry in your
equipment:

If the radio has some circuitry that switches it off when battery power gets
low, there is no risk of damaging the batteries by emptying them too much.
Similarly, if the charging circuitry is smart enough, charging will stop or
go into "trickle" mode when the battery is full. (usually you can tell the
smartness of the charging circuitry, if there is some indication of the
state of charging it's smart, if there is not, be careful, read the manual
and do not overcharge too long).

For NiCd it is advisable to charge and discharge in full cycles, i.e. fully
charge and then fully dischage, otherwise they'll "remember" the shallow
cycle and keep less charge.
For other types like Lithium or NiMh it does not seem matter much what
pattern they are charged and discharged. Only because of their high
self-discharge I keep NiMh batteries in a trickle-charger until I actually
need them, and I usually top-up my Lithium cells before a trip as well.

regards,

Kees
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From: <Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:46:09 -0400
 The battery case takes 6 NiCd 
> rechargables or 6 AA batteries.  It is also the housing for the 
> NiCd's for recharging, but most of the time I use a separate charger 
> which offers the option to decharge the accus before recharging.
> 
> Other radios don't offer the battery option at all, or after buying a 
> separate battery container.  If I go out on a trip were I really need 
> the radio I use fresh batteries.  They last longer than NiCd's and 
> don't drop as fast.  For normal use I put the NiC's in and carry a 
> set of spares just  in case.  Changing batteries on the water isn't 
> fun, but so far there was always a chance to do it before heading out 
> again.

The HX260S has a Ni-Cad rechargable pack and a "AA" pack (as standards, not options).  The Nicad pack is "closed", but you can load/replace the AA batteries.  If you need to switch from one pack to the other while on the water, it's the whole pack that pops on and off.  Not perfect, but easier than dealing with individual batteries.

Rick 

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From: Dave Kruger <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:22:52 -0700
<Rick.Sylvia_at_ferguson.com> wrote:

>> I have the HX260S and wonder if I'm hurting my battery life.  I listen to
the weather before I leave the house.  While I'm paddling, I leave it turned
off, but after a couple hours, or if the weather looks like it's changing, I
check the weather again.  Consequently, I only use it about 10 minutes for each
outing.  At that rate, I can go many weeks without draining and recharging.

Am I okay, or would it be better to leave it on overnight to drain, and then
recharge the next day?  How many days/weeks should I let it go before purposely
draining and recharging?>>

I think you are as OK as you can be.  But read on.

Ralph Diaz's use of his Horizon NiCad (top off before use; drain completely
every few days and then recharge) is pretty good maintenance for a NiCad,
certainly the best you can do without special tools.  However, even with
Ralph's careful maintenance, his NiCad died after three years.  In my
experience, this is not unusual (I used to fly RC aircraft).

If you really want to get anal about it, there are NiCad chargers/cyclers that
will take a battery all the way up, and then down, measuring the charge the
battery can hold.  For critical applications, worth it.   Check the RC
magazines for these.  Must be de rigueur by now, although connectors may
challenge you.

The better choice would be to switch to lithium batteries, which do not have
the "memory" defect of NiCad's, and seem to have a longer service life when
used by normal (non-anal) humans.  Too bad Horizon does not make lithium
batteries to fit Ralph's old radio (or, do they?).

YMMV.

--
Dave Kruger
Astoria, OR

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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:07:44 -0400
From: "Dave Kruger" <kdruger_at_pacifier.com>

> The better choice would be to switch to lithium batteries, which do not have
> the "memory" defect of NiCad's, and seem to have a longer service life when
> used by normal (non-anal) humans.  Too bad Horizon does not make lithium
> batteries to fit Ralph's old radio (or, do they?).

Li-Ion are great technology, but a cheaper choice would be to switch to 
NiMH batteries.  These are available for some VHF units as an expensive 
pack or you can opt for a AA battery pack and use conventional AA NiMH.  
You can get 1700-1800 mAh AA batteries easily and higher capacity are 
now making an appearance.

NiMH doesn't have the same memory effect as NiCd and they can be topped up 
at any time without a full drain/recharge cycle.  I have a Rayovac 1 hour 
charger that can be run off a wall wart, my car's cigarette lighter (with 
adapter) or the 12v electric pump battery in my kayak.  I can also run it
off a solar photovoltaic panel if I ever get rich.

The same batteries are used in my digital camera, GPS, flashlight and headlamps,
a VHF and most other electronic widgets I buy - this way I can swap batteries 
between gadgets as need arises, power is running low and I can't recharge.

Mike

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From: Patrick Maun <patrick_at_patrickmaun.com>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 12:05:10 -0500
>  >> I have the HX260S and wonder if I'm hurting my battery life.  [SNIP]

I have the slightly older version of the Icom-M1. I've had it for 
about five years and also use it to check weather intermittently on 
trips. My battery recently failed (they are around $79US to replace) 
after a total usage time of probably two hours over the years. I'd 
also love to hear any suggestions for treating the battery right.

Is there an NiMH option available for the M1? I looked around on 
Icom's website and couldn't find any other battery options (AA etc) 
aside from the NiCad.

-Patrick
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From: Allan McLane <amcl_at_sover.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:42:19 -0400
Dave,

I believe you meant "Lithium-ion" rather than "lithium," right?

The latter aren't rechargeable, afaik.

--allan

On Wed, 18 Sep 2002 08:22:52 -0700, Dave Kruger wrote:

>The better choice would be to switch to lithium batteries, which do not have
>the "memory" defect of NiCad's, and seem to have a longer service life when
>used by normal (non-anal) humans.  Too bad Horizon does not make lithium
>batteries to fit Ralph's old radio (or, do they?).
>




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From: Kenneth Cooperstein <cprstn54_at_att.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 10:59:54 -0400
I have the HX460S, which uses an Li-Ion battery.  Such batteries have no memory.  You can leave the 12V plug in all the time.  BTW, the radio will trickle charge even if left on RX.  It will only fast charge with the radio off.  There is no desktop charger for it yet (would permit fast charge and RX/TX), but the idea is under consideration by Standard.

For NiCd-powered radios, the story is materially different because such batteries lose capacity if trickle charged indefinitely.  However, this condition is reversible with a couple of charge/full discharge cycles.  Some say it nevertheless shortens overall life.

So, what I do for all my NiCd appliances (e.g., laptops, radios) is I leave them plugged in if I use them a lot at a base station.  Once every couple of months, I discharge them fully and recharge them.  Also, if I am taking them into the field, I do the same thing the night before.

Because NiCd's also have a limited number of cycles in their life, you want to avoid an excessive number of cycles.  I have heard that within the cycle life, NiCd's will last from 4 to 6 years, depending upon how close to the ideal charge/recharge profile you are.

Ken C

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From: Chuck Holst <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2002 14:03:26 -0500
Is there an NiMH option available for the M1? I looked around on
Icom's website and couldn't find any other battery options (AA etc)
aside from the NiCad.

-Patrick
***************************************************************************

AFAIK, the NiCad battery for the M1 is no longer available, and my original 
battery is also failing. I wonder if the lithium ion battery for the M1-V 
works on the old M1?

Chuck Holst


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From: Kenneth Cooperstein <cprstn54_at_att.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 12:26:38 -0400
I have the HX460S, which uses an Li-Ion battery.  Such batteries have no
memory.  You can leave the 12V plug in all the time.  BTW, the radio
will trickle charge even if left on RX.  It will only fast charge with
the radio off.  There is no desktop charger for it yet (would permit
fast charge and RX/TX), but the idea is under consideration by Standard.

For NiCd-powered radios, the story is materially different because such
batteries lose capacity if trickle charged indefinitely.  However, this
condition is reversible with a couple of charge/full discharge cycles. 
Some say it nevertheless shortens overall life.

So, what I do for all my NiCd appliances (e.g., laptops, radios) is I
leave them plugged in if I use them a lot at a base station.  Once every
couple of months, I discharge them fully and recharge them.  Also, if I
am taking them into the field, I do the same thing the night before.

Because NiCd's also have a limited number of cycles in their life, you
want to avoid an excessive number of cycles.  I have heard that within
the cycle life, NiCd's will last from 4 to 6 years, depending upon how
close to the ideal charge/recharge profile you are.

Regarding the desirability of alkaline battery holders, I used to think
that was important -- especially if paddling in remote locations for
extended periods.  No longer.  The HX460S has an alkaline holder, but it
is almost useless because it only holds two AA's and will only pump out
1 watt and that only for a very short period.  What do do?  It turns out
that Standard (marine)/Vertex (ham) handi-talkies with Li-Ion packs
behave very nicely with six AA batteries in a $1.50 battery holder
plugged into the 12V jack.  These radios will RX/TX if more than 6V is
presented at the jack but won't charge the Li-Ion battery if the voltage
is below 9V.  Hence the 6-AA holder.  You can bring a bazillion charged
up NiMH or NiCD batteries and keep going and going (and not even drain
the Li-Ion).  The alternative is a $30 proprietary AA holder that
usually isn't even submersible.

Ken C
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From: Michael Daly <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 13:58:14 -0400
From: "Kenneth Cooperstein" <cprstn54_at_att.net>

> It turns out
> that Standard (marine)/Vertex (ham) handi-talkies with Li-Ion packs
> behave very nicely with six AA batteries in a $1.50 battery holder
> plugged into the 12V jack.  These radios will RX/TX if more than 6V is
> presented at the jack but won't charge the Li-Ion battery if the voltage
> is below 9V.  Hence the 6-AA holder.  You can bring a bazillion charged
> up NiMH or NiCD batteries and keep going and going (and not even drain
> the Li-Ion).  

Now this is good to know!!!  I've been drooling over the 460S since its
Li-Ion battery is very good for weekend+ trips.  Knowing that there is
a AA option that works and is cheap for longer trips make it look even
better.

Mike

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From: Steve Holtzman <sh_at_actglobal.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Standard Horizon HX460S
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2002 17:17:09 -0700
Mike,

Save a little money and get the HX350S. Mine goes for over 16 hours on a
charge and works real well for weekend trips. I also keep a AA battery pack
with fresh batteries in my flare bag.

Several friends have both the 350S and the HX460S and they actually prefer
the performance of the 350.

Steve Holtzman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Daly" <michaeldaly_at_rogers.com>
> Now this is good to know!!!  I've been drooling over the 460S since its
> Li-Ion battery is very good for weekend+ trips.  Knowing that there is
> a AA option that works and is cheap for longer trips make it look even
> better.
>
> Mike

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