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From: <Blankibr_at_aol.com>
subject: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:52:20 EST
I was recently paddling on the Chesapeake Bay when the water was in the 30's 
and the air was about 24 degrees.  I use neoprene hunting gloves commonly 
found in K-Mart/Wal-Mart for less than $10.  

I submerged one hand several times right off doing a hard, edged turn and it 
continued to get colder.  I borrowed a pair of pogies and warmed up for about 
15 minutes, then returned them.  My hands stayed warm the remainder of the 
trip.  

I didn't like the feeling of being tied to my paddle so I purchased a pair of 
water resistant mitten shells that are large enough to go over the gloves.  I 
confess I have not had the opportunity to test the theory, but I think they 
would allow me to re-warm my gloved hands and still be able to remove my 
hands from the paddle.

Hope this helps,
Brian Blankinship

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From: Rev. Bob Carter <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 12:27:03 -0900
Cold hands

Mike, being very thin I have always had cold hand problems especially since
I try to paddle year round up here in Alaska. I approach the problem in
several ways.

First I over dress putting on an extra layer on my torso to build up and
hold heat at my body core. If the body's core starts to get too cold the
circulation system begins to rob warm blood from the extremetes (hands, feet
ears) to protect the vital interior organs. Also I keep my head warm with a
knit cap and the hood of my anorak.

Second, I use a wooden paddle. the wood retains warmth from my hands whereas
fiberglass always seems to suck the warmth away.

Third, I take a variety of gloves. A pair thin polypro for when the
conditions are not too bad and for fiddling with gear. (touching cold gear
with bare hands is to be avoided) A set of pogies, awkward yes but useful on
windy days when the wind tries to drive the heat out of my hands. Lastly a
set of neopreme wet suit gloves for when thing get their worst.

Also it is very important to make sure that tight fitting wrist gaskets, or
gloves do not restrict your circulation. I had an old pair of neopreme
gloves that made my thumbs freeze because of this. I eventually replaced
them and solved the problem.

Keep well hydrated. Hydration effects blood flow.
Keep eating allowing the calories to build up heat in your body. (if a wood
stove runs out of wood the fire goes out)

Push come to shove take along some chemical heat packs to re warm your
hands.

Hope this helps
Bob
In balmy Alaska (temps have been above normal all winter)


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From: <jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 18:08:28 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rev. Bob Carter" <revkayak_at_aptalaska.net>

> Cold hands
 >I use a wooden paddle. the wood retains warmth from my hands whereas
> fiberglass always seems to suck the warmth away.
> Bob

The good Rev jolted my memory concerning cold paddle shafts.  NSI sells a
wrap around neoprene index for one piece paddles called a Paddle Gripz.
Perhaps it would help a bit.  I have wanted to stick one on my whitewater
paddle but just haven't gotten around to ordering it. ~ $12.00

Jim et al


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From: <WildConect_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 16:36:49 EST
Since Keith mentioned me by name, I'll give my $.02 worth--I've been wearing 
NRS HydroSkin gloves with my pogies this year.  This combination provides 
plenty of warmth paddling the cold waters, not to mention the air temps, of 
Lake Michigan, even when needing to reach under a friend's boad to free a 
jammed skeg.  After bringing my hand back out of the water I just make a 
tight fist to squeeze excess water out, do a quick hand fling and get back 
into that pogie.

Newbies to winter paddling complain about the pogies at first, but they learn 
the warmth advantage; they adapt and become happy cold weather paddlers.

As soon as I hit the beach the HydroSkin gloves are replaced with the thick 
fleece gloves I carry in my day hatch.

I've tried just about every possibility -- open palmed mitts are good for 
early winter when the water is still fairly warm (45 to 50 degrees F), but 
colder air temps.  Colder than that I loose use of my hands too quickly 
during rescues.

HydroSkin gloves have a nice wide range of temps.  I loose too much dexterity 
with neoprene gloves and mitts, and I've yet to find a pair that keep my 
fingers warm.

For pogies I prefer the stiffer cuffs of neoprene--easier to slip the hand 
into.  But, sometimes my hands over heat in them.  I've got a pair of nylon 
cuffed that when not in use wrap around the paddle shaft and snap 
"closed"--but they are harder to get the hands into.  

It's all about trade-offs.

John Browning
www.wildernessconnection.com
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From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:10:10 EST
As a Reynaud's Syndrome sufferer -- constriction causes middle fingers to 
shut down completely, turning yellowish blue and losing all feeling -- I 
share the pain.  Have tried all the "best" of everyone's else's suggestion, 
but will strongly endorse a neoprene mitt with some light liner inside.  A 
lot better than neoprene gloves -- for the reasons earlier responders noted.

I also am fooling around with two pairs of dry gloves -- one a true diving 
glove that has a complicated set of rings that go into the drysuit cuffs and 
another that go into heavy latex gloves.  The other, much cheaper and easier 
to use in some ways, is basically the same glove that I bought from the dive 
shop -- heavy latex, beefier than a dry suit seal, but not by much -- with a 
seal that looks just like the cuff of the dry suit and mates over (or under) 
the suit's seal.  So far, so good, but this winter has been a disaster at 
work, and I haven't had enough time to really test them, or to see how long 
they'll survive.  Big dive shops for the first -- my source for the second 
was Annapolis Performance Sailing.  They have a web site, will sell by phone, 
and, for locals, they have a postbox contraption outside the store to allow 
you to pick up stuff you've bought by card when they're closed.  Which is a 
lot of the time.  These guys love to sail.  

Diver's rig is about $120 or more.  Not a great value for most kayakers, 
although they're set up to allow body heat/air to circulate to the hands.  
For me, in my extreme susceptibility to cold, there's value there.  The APS 
gloves were about $15.  There's a balance of getting a liner to provide 
warmth -- by themselves, they offer no warmth -- and having so much bulk that 
you can't handle the paddle.

One final potential solution: Magic Marine Dry Gloves product number is 
23001.  They're sailing gloves, and are made of two mm titanium layered 
neoprene with taped seams and a double cuff.  Your dry suit seal goes over 
the first cuff seal and under the second cuff seal, with an overlocking 
Velcro strap on the outside.  Can't wear liners, but the titanium-enhanced 
neoprene seems warm, and the glove is dry.  Period.  Assuming you follow the 
guidelines.  At about $35 at sailing shops, but these puppies sell out fast, 
and they're hard to find at this time of the year.  Again, there's a 
downside: makes it harder to feel the paddle, and there's sometimes a 
"bungee" effect where a thicker liner and a latex glove will make it hard to 
bend the fingers.

Recyclable hand warmers from REI are also a good source of heat --- but not 
for long.  

Good luck with those hands!

Joq

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From: <Harley1941_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 17:55:18 EST
Does anyone use pogies with a Greenland paddle. And if you do how well do 
they work when sliding your hands on the paddle?

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From: Joan Spinner <jspinner_at_peoplepc.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 21:24:01 -0500
I've been using my Greenland for several years if winter paddling. The first
year I spent $112 to TRY to keep my hands warm. After a few domestic
discussions on the use of limited resources I tried the pogies. I had to go
through several permutations of those too but landed on the river mits as ones
that would slide along the paddle and let me get my gloved hands in without
use of teeth or fellow paddlers.


    I use the Hydroskin  gloves inside the pogies. I want some thought that my
hands will function if I do have to come out of my boat. I am not close to a
bombproof roll. I need hands even for an assisted rescue. OTOH, rolling isn't
an issure as I use an extended position with my one hand on the very end of
the blade, which I just take out of the mit, and the other pogie slides
easily. 


    For you, I guess it will depend on how thick your loom is and if you can
find mitts with a nice wide attachment area. Mine are NRS something. I don't
recall what at this point.





  Does anyone use pogies with a Greenland paddle. And if you do how well do 


  they work when sliding your hands on the paddle?








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From: Shawn Baker <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 15:18:46 -0800 (PST)
"Mike O'Byrne" <Heep_at_attbi.com> wrote:
>Ahoy! I'm having serious problems paddling this winter with frozen 
fingers...Aside from pogies, does anyone have suggestions to alleviate
wet, frozen fingers? 

Try Nordic Blue or orange Atlas pvc-coated fish cleaning gloves.  Any
industrial chandlery down on the "working" side of your local marina
should have them.  Working meaning the chandleries who cater to
fishermen, merchant mariners, longshoremen...not the ones who cater to
yachties or recreational fishermen.

I have a pair of XXL Atlas gloves...which are the first waterproof
gloves I've found large enough to fit my hands.  I've been wearing them
without any sort of seal, but plan to incorporate a PVC ring/o-ring
seal to seal them to the sleeves of my drysuit.  Brian Nystrom, I
think, has glued latex wrist seals to a pair of Nordic Blues to make
his own drygloves.

Home Depot also has some cotton-lined, blue PVC coated "chemical
resistant" gloves.  They should work great, too.  They just didn't have
my size.  :(

I had been using a pair of neoprene gloves from WalMart.  You
apparently have to buy these in August or September.  Now that it's
winter, they're all out of stock, and the spring sporting goods are in.

Shawn

__________________________________________________
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From: TomL <tletourn_at_maine.rr.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 19:48:52 -0500
At 03:18 PM 2/11/2003 -0800, Shawn Baker wrote:
>"Mike O'Byrne" <Heep_at_attbi.com> wrote:
> >Ahoy! I'm having serious problems paddling this winter with frozen
>fingers...Aside from pogies, does anyone have suggestions to alleviate
>wet, frozen fingers?

I paddle with Mike (who began this "cold hands" thread this time around). I 
bear witness to his dilemma (read... pain) on our last outing, Sunday, off 
NH's Newcastle coast. Temps were freezing, wind about 20 knots, water in 
the low 40s. Seems we've had our share of nasty conditions this winter so far.

I 'm also afflicted with cold hands, the kind that numb to 
no-feeling-at-all and ache horribly when they begin to "come back." Froze 
them playing in the winter mountains years ago. The things we do for 
excitement! I guess I've tried about everything, and I suspect that my dry 
suit wrist gaskets are part of the problem. That being said, my latest 
experiment is wearing a "Climb High" gortex mitten shell over a 
medium-weight polypro mitten. These were designed for ice climbers. My 
hands were the warmest I've ever felt them, for most of our last outing.

Still, today in the mail I got my pair of "Black Mambas," an NRS 5mm set of 
poggies. My wife sweats by poggies, but being somewhat stubborn, I've yet 
to try them. I guess I feel that they might be too hard to slide on the 
paddle; I often change the spread of my hands on both Euro and Greenland 
paddles. Wife says, "no problem," and because many of you testify, after a 
getting-used-to period, a paddler loves them, I will experiment again.

I never thought of myself as having "large" hands. According to NRS, a 
spread of 4 to 4 1/2 inches (widest part of palm) will demand L to XL size. 
But even when I tried Mike's NRS XXL gloves, my hands felt too snug. I have 
yet to find a pair of neoprene gloves roomy enough. If any of you paddler 
folks have more info on NRS Hydroskins... exact model name, please pass 
this on (back channel if desired). I will rethink the XXL, and try on 
Mike's again to make sure they are indeed XXL (not just XL). They are the 
black and red colored model; I forget the name. Not sure if they're 
hydroskin though.

What's life without a quest, eh?

TomL 


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From: <JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 22:20:44 EST
In a message dated 2/11/2003 4:49:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, 
aaronwhite_at_mn.rr.com writes:


> If pogies are not going to work buy a thick NRS neoprene mitten.  
> Do NOT use liners.  The key to pogies and mittens is sharing the 
> heat of your entire hand.  A glove style liner inside a mitten is really 
> just going to insulate the heat from your hand and make the mitten 
> less effective. 
 
Any chance that you could run that by again, Aaron?  Not challenging your 
statement, but it seems counterintuitive that liners inside neoprene mitts 
would have a negative warmth factor.  Sounds as if your mitts are providing 
some warmth on their own, and that the glove liners are keeping that heat 
away from your hands.  On a bright, sunny day without spray or wave action, I 
know that the backs of my black neoprene gloves will soak up a little heat, 
but it sure doesn't seem to compete with what little heat is radiating out of 
my hands to heat up the moist air inside.  Dunno, but if you could be a tad 
more specific, it would be great news!

There are some pogies out there now that are not as hard to get on and off.  
Fat Eddy's has a set with stiff cuffs, and they say that " ... there are no 
hangups on getting this pogie on and off quickly. We have implemented a split 
lycra gasket inside that seals around your wrist when put on. It is easy to 
put these pogies on with the stiff open gauntlet, which is not crushable. As 
far as bombproof goes these daddies are made of 2mm neoprene on the bottom 
and 600D polyester foam  laminate on top makes for some warm paddling in cold 
conditions."  Sorry, didn't write down the URL.

One last issue: my biggest concern would be getting knocked down is some 
unexpected scenario with some injury, not be able to roll back, and have to 
swim for an extended period.  I suppose you could back up the pogies with neo 
gloves in a pocket, but it doesn't take long at all to completely lose 
function in your hands, and getting on a reserve pair seems problematic.  
Open to ideas.

Joq 
    
    


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From: Aaron White <aaronwhite_at_mn.rr.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Tue, 11 Feb 2003 23:19:38 -0600
On 11 Feb 2003 at 22:20, JCMARTIN43_at_aol.com wrote:
> Any chance that you could run that by again, Aaron? Not challenging your statement, but it 
> seems counterintuitive that liners inside neoprene mitts would have a negative warmth factor. 
> Sounds as if your mitts are providing some warmth on their own, and that the glove liners are 
> keeping that heat away from your hands. On a bright, sunny day without spray or wave action, I 
> know that the backs of my black neoprene gloves will soak up a little heat, but it sure doesn't 
> seem to compete with what little heat is radiating out of my hands to heat up the moist air inside. 
> Dunno, but if you could be a tad more specific, it would be great news! 

Here is my theory....a mitten or in this case a pogie allows your 
fingers and hand parts to stay together, "sharing the warmth" if you 
will.  Skin contact is the best way as far as I know of sharing heat 
between body parts in a wide variety of situations.  While it might 
seem that a glove type liner would add to the warmth it is actually 
going to insulate said fingers and hand parts from one another.  
Granted you will have the benefit of the gloves insulation plus 
additional wind resistance cause by the pogie.  I would however 
suggest that you would retain more heat keeping your fingers and 
hand parts together via skin contact.  Our winter paddling up here 
averages 20 degrees air and 32 water on nice day.  I am constantly 
amazed at how much warmer my hand is bare inside a pogie then 
with gloves.  I will certainly acknowledge though that preferences 
and paddling conditions will vary.  The design of the pogie will play 
a significant roll as well.  I use thick neoprene pogies that offer 
excellent insulation and have a cuff that mates well with the wrist of 
my drysuit.  Give it a try, bring along some gloves.  

On another note, my statement about nylon pogies was a bit 
strong.  It would still be my personal opinion that in my local 
paddling conditions I would not use them.  Of course as with 
anything mileage will vary and if nylon works well for you then I 
think it is certainly your best choice.

Aaron White
Minneapolis
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From: Bob Volin <bobvolin_at_optonline.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:15:10 -0500
Joq wrote:
> One last issue: my biggest concern would be getting knocked down is some
> unexpected scenario with some injury, not be able to roll back, and have
to
> swim for an extended period.  I suppose you could back up the pogies with
neo
> gloves in a pocket, but it doesn't take long at all to completely lose
> function in your hands, and getting on a reserve pair seems problematic.
> Open to ideas.

I agree -- there WILL come that time when the hands have to come out of the
pogies. From personal experience I can tell you that at about 30 degrees F.
you lose effective use of damp hands in seconds.  My solution: I wear 2mm
neoprene gloves (Glacier - little loss of feel for the paddle shaft, pretty
good manipulability for handling the day hatch and gear) and have pogies
wrapped on the paddle.  When I want more warmth, I slip into the pogies.
When I feel my hands are getting warm, I take them out of the pogies for a
while.  But I **won't** come out of those gloves in very cold weather again!

Bob V

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From: Chuck Holst <cholst_at_bitstream.net>
subject: RE: [Paddlewise] Cold Hands
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 09:43:33 -0600
>>
Does anyone use pogies with a Greenland paddle. And if you do how well do
they work when sliding your hands on the paddle?
>>

I don't use pogies with my Greenland paddle, but I do use the largest PVC 
or equivalent chemical-resistant gloves I can find, and line them with 
expedition-weight Capilene gloves. I look for the the most flexible gloves 
I can find; It is important that this combination not be so tight as to 
restrict circulation or movement. The main function of the PVC gloves is to 
minimize wind chill. They shed water quickly. One problem I have had with 
neoprene gloves is moisture being retained on the outside surface, which 
cools the gloves strongly in any kind of breeze. The only neoprene glove I 
would use would be one with a smooth -- not fabric-covered or open-cell -- 
skin. The liners keep my hands warm even when wet, as long as they are 
covered by the PVC shells, and can be exchanged for a spare dry pair.

I've paddled on the Mississippi at 8 degrees F. with this combination, and 
my hands stayed fairly comfortable. I used to use pogies before I started 
using a Greenland paddle, but as a friend pointed out years ago, they won't 
protect your hands if you come out of the boat.

BTW, the shoulders on a Southwest Greenland-style paddle make it much 
easier to grasp when the loom is covered by 1/8 inch of ice. And a good 
reason to use an extended roll with the Greenland paddle is that ice does 
not build up on the blade while you are paddling.

Chuck Holst
St. Paul, Minnesota
-5 degrees this morning


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