Matt said: >>Wetsuit or Drysuit? Why not both.<< Matt, you will probably remember some of the text you were working on from the Storm Island article, the one that didn't get published. One of the paddlers on the crossing was indeed wearing a Farmer John under his rugged-duty, bibbed drysuit.Additionally, he was wearing polypro underwear, under his Farmer John, as well as a fleece pile sweater over the Farmer John. His kayak must have been leaking badly for an hour before the rescue occurred (split seams), in addition to the six hours plodding on through gale force seas. He said he'd never been so cold in his life when we were finally picked up. He hadn't even really been in the water. The other paddler, Andrew, has gone into the first stages of hypothermia in his Farmer John/paddling jacket/polypro apparel sometime part way through the crossing. Neither were ever really in the water. My point is, hypothermia immersion apparel is important, even if you don't end up in the water. Their gear didn't yield enough protection as it was, let alone if an immersion scenario had taken place. What emphasis does that place on what you wear? I value my immersion apparel for a lot more than immersion protection. I think this needs to be highlighted too, especially for more exposed paddling conditions. Some of those survival suits paddlers wear aren't too bad for immersion wear (temporarily), but I'd rule them out up front anyway, as water just shoots up the cuffs and soaks your core eventually. But, it entirely depends on the waters you are paddling in. The other part of the equation left out in our discussions is the type of boat one paddles. A low volume kayak with a low-profile foredeck is going to be a lot wetter ride than some HV touring boat. I wear my wetsuit all summer long, as I just get too many drips and runs of water to make fleece or shorts a viable option. But I've seen guys alight from their high-decked kayaks, back after an afternoon off Wouwer in the late-day chop, with not a drop of water on their MEC nylon pants -- dry as a bone. Correlating with the above is the other item I'd like to highlight. Immersion apparel for a kayaker isn't "immersion apparel". Scott made some good points about wetsuit technology, and the lack of wetsuit manufacturers marketing thermal underwear for use under wetsuits. But kayakers are a separate sport with specific differences. We are cobbling different technologies and sports apparel and gear together, and applying it to a sport that is implicitly individualistic - more so than many other recreational activities. I always wear polypro under my wetsuit in the winter, and I even add nylon windpants to ward off convective heat loss if needed. I'm not wearing my wetsuit underwater. Thick fleece is different. That goes over my wetsuit. Interestingly enough, Scott's logic isn't too fuzzy: while I came through the crossing with flying colours in the thermal department, two hours on the Coast Guard cutter in a wetsuit with wet polypro underneath finally took its toll and I went into an involuntary shivering bonanza when we arrived back at the dock. The polypro under the wetsuit worked fine as long as I was moving. There are no perfect answers, and I think the poster(s) know this. Still, it is interesting to hear various opinions and more so, preferences and the thinking/experience behind the various positions. A little less hubris at times would be nice however from all quarters (I include myself here). In fact, none of us are experts or industry insiders on a lot of matters pertaining to paddling that we talk about here on this list no matter how much we fuss and preen (but not all issues, of course). You also said: >>All in all though I'm in full agreement with what one of my old surfing buddies from back in the 80's, Robert Livingston, just wrote on the subject in Paddlewise.<< Yes, Robert's recent post was perhaps one of the most articulate, well crafted posts I have ever read on Paddlewise on the subject of paddling apparel and the issue surrounding personal choice. I was a little upset that he used one of my posts to springboard into the rejoiner. Yes, I like proper immersion apparel utilized for kayaking, or specific paddling gear where available to meet a niche, myself, and generally recommend it as a default proviso if my opinion is sought. Paddlers in Puget Sound can wear whatever they wish. Just remember the "law of unintended consequences," and so build in some safety margin somewhere, then live or die with your choices (or shiver or whatever). I'd certainly have to agree that a growing number of my competent, proficient paddling friends are increasingly moving toward paddling with comfort in mind, not immersion. That's fine. Just keep up a healthy respect for the sea. I'm sure Robert does. For all my bravado, I still fear the sea appropriately. A man or woman without fear is a man or women without hope. While one of your American presidents said the only thing to fear is fear itself, when it comes to paddling (depending on location), fear hypothermia. And you don't necessarily have to suffer immersion to become hypothermic. Okay, this is the spot where Scott or Duane jumps in about the true "killer," hyperthermia! :-) You said too: >>Doug I bought the UVIC designed Mustang Float coat, you described, back then to test it out. It was way too bulky, stiff and heavy for paddling in.<< I didn't mean to imply the Floater Coat was appropriate for paddling. I was simply highlighting the fact that this was one of the products that came about during that period of research development when it was realized that people loose a lot of heat out of their groin area during immersion in cold water. Cheers!! Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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