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From: Ed DeBee <edebee_at_ev1.net>
subject: [Paddlewise] Big Rolls
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:19:27 -0600
I'm not certain if there are special techniques required for teaching the 
roll to larger paddlers.

However, I have read the posts and have a comment regarding use of hips 
and the term "hip snap."  Personally, when I teach the roll I don't use 
the term or mention righting of a capsized kayak with use of the hip.  I 
do use the term "rolling knee" and "rolling thigh."  

I've discussed this among fellow instructors I teach with and they agree; 
concentration of the righting motion should be on the rolling knee.  I 
feel lower body practice for the roll ought to be focused on the 
student's rolling knee and be done on the side of a pool, bow of another 
kayak or using the hands of the instructor who should be standing in 
shallow water.

The Kent Ford video is a great starting point and teaching aid.  I've 
viewed it many times and the term Hip Snap is not mentioned.

The technique and use of the knee in the video has been pivotal in my 
learning eleven different rolls (both sides), sculling up (both sides) 
and extreme high brace recovery with body in water (both sides).

One last remark.  The three biggest setbacks in achievement of a solid 
roll are: 1) Not sweeping beyond 90 degrees before torso rotation - 
resulting in pulling on the paddle  and 2) Not having rotated the boat 90 
degrees on its roll axis by the time torso sweep is converted to torso  
rotation and 3) Gripping the paddle tightly while having more or less 
then zero pitch angle of the paddle blade to the water.

Good paddling and successful rolling,

Ed DeBee
http://users3.ev1.net/~edebee/
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From: Keith Wrage <keith.wrage_at_charter.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Big Rolls
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:59:52 -0600
Rich,

Correct me if I'm wrong here:  But in the sweep roll that Kent teaches in 
his video, they don't advocate or suggest finishing lying on the back deck, 
right?  If they do, maybe this is why I can't get it!! :o)  I may have 
missed that nuance of this thing!

Keith 

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From: Joan Spinner <jspinner_at_peoplepc.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Big Rolls
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:12:56 -0500
I'm far from any expert but I thought a sweep finished on the back deck. I
can't imagine how else you can end it if it sweeps behind your hip.





Joan


  Correct me if I'm wrong here:  But in the sweep roll that Kent teaches in 


  his video, they don't advocate or suggest finishing lying on the back deck,

  right? 





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From: Keith Wrage <keith.wrage_at_charter.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Big Rolls
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 22:12:53 -0600
But in the 'alternate rolls' section towards the end, they make it a point 
to show a roll ending on the back and then explain why they don't 
necessarily advocate this method (although they do say that there are LOTS 
of good rolls out there - learn several).  It finishes with a torso twist 
that places the blade behind you...but you aren't laid out on the back 
deck.  Some of the rolls shown in the video have the paddler leaning back 
slightly as they finish - but most don't seem overly tipped back (from what 
I recall).


At 05:12 PM 3/23/03 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm far from any expert but I thought a sweep finished on the back deck. I 
>can't imagine how else you can end it if it sweeps behind your hip.
>
>Joan
>Correct me if I'm wrong here:  But in the sweep roll that Kent teaches in
>his video, they don't advocate or suggest finishing lying on the back deck,
>right?

Keith Wrage
1925 Sandalwood Drive
Onalaska, WI  54650
(608) 781-3441
(608) 317-7550 (cell)


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From: Rich Kulawiec <rsk_at_rockandwater.net>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Big Rolls
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 10:50:09 -0500
On Sun, Mar 23, 2003 at 03:59:52PM -0600, Keith Wrage wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong here:  But in the sweep roll that Kent teaches in 
> his video, they don't advocate or suggest finishing lying on the back deck, 
> right?  If they do, maybe this is why I can't get it!! :o)  I may have 
> missed that nuance of this thing!

And it may have been too long since I've watched that particular
video: I'll have to find it, drop it in, and watch it again.

The sweep roll that I learned ends up with the paddle in the same
position that it would be at the end of an ordinary forward sweep:
nearly parallel to the boat.  The body ends up arched back over
the back deck.  I actually *do* use this roll under very special
conditions: when playing in deep water where I know (a) there is
no chance of hitting the bottom and (b) if I miss it, I'll have
plenty of time to set up and roll again before washing into anything.
Mostly I do it sporadically just so I don't forget it. ;-)

I use the C-to-C roll under all other circumstances, though, because
if I'm upside-down, I probably got that way because some river
feature pounded me and left me that way.  My goal is thus to get
up FAST before something even worse happens, to keep my face protected
while it's down there, and to come up in a position that leaves me
prepared to take a hard forward stroke immediately.

BTW: I should have probably mentioned some of the other exercises
that I do: one is to take my feet off the footbraces and my knees
off the pads.  This means that I can't use my lower legs and have
to rely entirely on my hips -- I find it useful for isolating and
training those muscles.  Another is to blow the skirt and roll
the boat several times -- it gets much harder and this usually
ends with a swim to the side of the pool.  Another is to set up
left, then re-set up right and roll; another is to flip, pass the
paddle over the top (hull) of the boat and roll; and another is to
do 5 left, 5 right as rapidly as possible.  Everybody has little
games like this: I think all of them help turn the roll into a reflex
action and to make it more reliable.  They're also kind of fun.

Now my C-1 roll...well, let's just say that it's rather an iffy
thing at this point. ;-)

---Rsk

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From: Paul Raymond <kayaker37_at_hotmail.com>
subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Big Rolls
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 11:42:31 -0500
Hi Mark,

I'm 42, or so my kids tell me, 5' 10" and 215 lbs. I've signed up for 
rolling clases April 6, so I'll be better able to tell you then. I did 
however manage to get off five C to C rolls last year in the basic class on 
my "wrong side", that being my left side, as I'm right handed. On my strong 
right side, I just kind of flounder about, and it feels hopeless.

Same thing with martial art classes. My left side had to focus on technique, 
as my supposedly stronger right side kind of muscles its way through moves. 
But in practice hitting, everyone told me my left side is strongest! Really 
annoying.

Its been a while since I've practiced martial arts, so I'm not that 
flexible, so my hip snap isn't really strong. But a couple of those rolls 
were done fluidly enough to nearly roll over to the other side again.

Anyway, as long as you have an instructor who can show you proper technique, 
and you are persistent, you should be able to sucessfully roll. I wasn't 
keen on goggles, and nose clips, but they make you more comfortable while 
being upside down, so you are able to orient yourself better, so you can 
concentrate on technique, so use those too.

Paul

>From: "Mark Sanders" <sandmarks_at_attbi.com>
I'd like to know if there's any big kayakers
> > out there who have a really good roll. I'm 46, 6' 265lbs and I'm 
>wondering if it's really feasable to think I'm ever really going to be able 
>to muscle
my way upright.


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