Shirley, The answer was in Greg Welker's post (repeated below your snip). Come to the cold water workshop this Saturday. Listen to the speakers who will provide guidance and probability factors, and the tale from a sailor who fell into the Chesapeake recently. More importantly try out your personal cold water clothing. Someone suggested a group swim and another group rescue practices. There will be a controlled environment where you (and all other attendees) can test what you wear, on your own body thus learning what protection it gives YOU. That is more important than what any of us can tell you about gear. You can also bring or borrow a kayak and try rolls and rescues. As you know CPA has several other opportunities for group rescue practices. Brian Blankinship Drysuit after testing his wetsuit at previous cold water clinics Shirley Ireton ireton_at_comcast.net is snipped<<Here on the usually-mild but now-frozen Chesapeake, a risk assessment discussion rages...There must be some way of resolving the code red caution of the drysuiters with the more optimistic neoprene-clad. We are scaring each other, and it makes for uncomfortable group paddles. And that's the LAST thing we want on the water! Guidance, probability factors, tales, and wisecracks would be appreciated!>> gwelker_at_erols.com: The Chesapeake Paddlers Association will be holding our annual Cold Water Clinic on March 15th in Annapolis, MD. More information at: http://www.cpakayaker.com/events/coldwater.html If you wish to attend the event but have not yet registered, you need to email Laura Butterbaugh at events_at_cpakayaker.com ASAP so she can give the restaurant a head count for lunch. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I thought the wet suite is made to trap water inside the fabric and holds it there while your body warms this layer of water. I thought a thin wicking layer for your upper body is to help from chaffing. so you want as little between you and your wet suite and then layer out from there? I might be wrong? *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Stephen Huskey wrote: > I thought the wet suite is made to trap water inside the fabric and holds it > there while your body warms this layer of water. I thought a thin wicking > layer for your upper body is to help from chaffing. so you want as little > between you and your wet suite and then layer out from there? I find the long underwear gets sweat-soaked quickly and thus providesthe layer of warm water under the wet suit. Everyone I know uses it in cooler weater/water. I saw something a few years ago on the internt (!) that gave an explanation of how wet suits work because of the air trapped in them, so it doesn't matter if they are wet or dry (except for water exchange). I haven't looked for it for a while. Was very well explained, but I cannot vouch for it. GaryJ -- Director, Family Canoeing Centre Recreational canoeing courses for the whole family. +--------------------------------+ | /"\ | | \ / | | X ASCII RIBBON CAMPAIGN | | / \ AGAINST HTML MAIL & NEWS | +--------------------------------+ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Rob in the Falklands says he uses a 3mm full wetsuit and neoprene socks with fleece on top. Steve is asking about a farmer John suit with fleece and paddletop, mukluks, gloves. Here on the usually-mild but now-frozen Chesapeake, a risk assessment discussion rages. One side says nothin' doing without a drysuit at this time. Others, equipped with what Steve suggests, are eager to get onto the water--at least in fairly protected, >2 ft water. Assume advanced beginner skills: "those who have been on longer trips (up to 10 miles, full day outings), have some experience with varying conditions such as winds, and waves, and have good rescue and group-paddling skills." There must be some way of resolving the code red caution of the drysuiters with the more optimistic neoprene-clad. We are scaring each other, and it makes for uncomfortable group paddles. And that's the LAST thing we want on the water! Guidance, probability factors, tales, and wisecracks would be appreciated! Shirley Ireton ireton_at_comcast.net *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "shirley ireton" <ireton_at_comcast.net> > One side says nothin' doing without a drysuit at this time. Others, > equipped with what Steve suggests, are eager to get onto the water--at > least in fairly protected, >2 ft water. > > Assume advanced beginner skills:> > There must be some way of resolving the code red caution of the > drysuiters with the more optimistic neoprene-clad. We are scaring each > other, and it makes for uncomfortable group paddles. And that's the > LAST thing we want on the water! > > Guidance, probability factors, tales, and wisecracks would be > appreciated! > > Shirley Ireton I like Shirley's last remark a lot.Unfortunately 9 out of 10 paddlers in my club think accidental submersion isn't going to happen to them. And 9 out of 10 times it doesn't. But the 10th time gets interesting. People then pile into two camps. (1)Gosh we better be more careful or (2) Oh well it all turned out for the best. Close to giving up trying to be group safe....... Jim et al *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
jfarrelly5_at_comcast.net wrote: > From: "shirley ireton" <ireton_at_comcast.net> >>Guidance, probability factors, tales, and wisecracks would be >>appreciated! > > I like Shirley's last remark a lot.Unfortunately 9 out of 10 paddlers in my > club think accidental submersion isn't going to happen to them. And 9 out > of 10 times it doesn't. But the 10th time gets interesting. People then > pile into two camps. (1)Gosh we better be more careful or (2) Oh well it > all turned out for the best. That sounds familiar. My problem with (1) has always been in figuring out how to be careful. My mother used to think I had a problem with that, too. Re cold water clothing: I hate to paddle in a wetsuit that's really tight, like divers wear, so I prefer to wear a layer of poly under the wetsuit, which minimizes sloshing of the water layer. For me, read fuzzy rubber instead of wetsuit, though, and drysuit if it's really cold. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/11/2003 1:01:06 PM Eastern Standard Time, ireton_at_comcast.net writes: > ... Guidance, probability factors, tales, and wisecracks would be > appreciated! ... As a (fit) teenager I used to swim in the North Sea (latitude of Newfoundland, though usually ice free even in winter due to Gulf Stream influences) in swimming trunks: Active time less than 20 minutes fully immersed. I did some scuba diving training in Sweden in 4-8 degree Celsius water in a 4 mm neoprene farmer john and more or less matching 6 mm neoprene top (with integral hood). Underwater times in excess of 60 minutes usually left us barely able to control the shivering upon resurfacing, i.e., well along on the road of hypothermia (I hasten to add that the situation was fully controlled, that there were safety boats and plenty of other, fresh, warm divers on hand in case of developing emergencies). I have swum in salt water in developing skim ice with that self same farmer john (in somewhat less than perfect condition these days) in combination with a nylon / PU paddling drytop over a fleece top and a (detached) neoprene diving hood. Once the water starts invading the drytop in significant it gets a trifle uncomfortable. On that occasion there was less immediate support in case it had been needed, so I cut short the experiment while I was still in full control myself -- active immersion time was less than 30 minutes. I'll leave it at that. The above should give you some corner posts for initial orientation. Shirley, I tell the "hairy chested" stories to illustrate that all the statistics and theoretical information will not replace personal trial and error. Perhaps a swimming session with the entire group will improve comfort levels ... or weed out those who are not up for it -- and if you're afraid to get wet (or, in this case, wet and cold) better not to go out. Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_Atlatl-Kayaks.com / Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.Atlatl-Kayaks.com / www.PouchBoats.com phone: +1-802-649-2555 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I like Ralph's idea of having a group swim sometime - just to give everyone a taste. Although that does not solve the "I'll never capsize" argument. Quite frankly though, I'd be suspicious of someone that says they'll NEVER capsize - seems to me an experienced, realistic paddler would never say NEVER. If they NEVER capsize, then what the heck - tell them to leave their PFD at home too...although it would seem a shame to lose such a perfect paddler from the gene pool! I'm kidding, of course ;o) The other component of preparing for cold water would seem to be recovery practice. Again, not a substitute for being prepared clothing-wise but certainly if a **group's** recovery skills are well-practiced, this reduces the overall risk. IMHO, knowing that everyone has done recovery drills on their own is not the same as a group working together and coordinating their efforts - even simple things like practicing the use of common terminology or signals could reduce confusion and immersion times when critical. Just some thoughts - Keith *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith Wrage" <keith.wrage_at_charter.net> > I like Ralph's idea of having a group swim sometime - just to give everyone > a taste. Although that does not solve the "I'll never capsize" > argument. Quite frankly though, I'd be suspicious of someone that says > they'll NEVER capsize - seems to me an experienced, realistic paddler would > never say NEVER. If they NEVER capsize, then what the heck - tell them to > leave their PFD at home too...although it would seem a shame to lose such a > perfect paddler from the gene pool! I'm kidding, of course ;o) > The guys that I paddle with almost every weekend usually host a rescue and recovery practice once a month in an area where the water conditions go from totally flat and gradually increase to some good size surf. These practice sessions are open to all---both beginning SOT's and closed deck boats to the most advanced paddlers. However, the people who usually show up for any of these practice sessions are the ones who already have these skills (maybe they have them because we are always practicing them) and not the ones who need to learn or practice them. I guess you can't convince some people that it's not a question of if you go swimming, but when. Steve Holtzman Southern CA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Steve, I agree with your comments. I suppose it is a bit of a holier-than-thou attitude but I suppose the extension of this is to throw out the personal 'rule' that I wouldn't paddle in conditions that were or would likely become difficult if they didn't feel the need to invest some time in recovery skills - either out of respect for themselves or for me. Statements like the a group is only as strong as its weakest member apply to some regard. Someone that ignores safety practice or equipment - even their own PERSONAL equipment or skills forces other members of the group to expose themselves to additional, unnecessary risks. In an emergency situation, no one would simply paddle away and say "gee, I guess you should've practiced some recoveries" in a I told you so tone of voice...We would all do whatever we had to in order to get that person to safety - possibly at a harm to ourselves. I'm a novice paddler - in all areas, but I'm working hard on my skills in part to save my own skin - but also in order to not be a liability to any of my friends. Keith At 04:39 PM 3/11/03 -0800, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Keith Wrage" <keith.wrage_at_charter.net> > > > I like Ralph's idea of having a group swim sometime - just to give >everyone > > a taste. Although that does not solve the "I'll never capsize" > > argument. Quite frankly though, I'd be suspicious of someone that says > > they'll NEVER capsize - seems to me an experienced, realistic paddler >would > > never say NEVER. If they NEVER capsize, then what the heck - tell them to > > leave their PFD at home too...although it would seem a shame to lose such >a > > perfect paddler from the gene pool! I'm kidding, of course ;o) > > > >The guys that I paddle with almost every weekend usually host a rescue and >recovery practice once a month in an area where the water conditions go from >totally flat and gradually increase to some good size surf. These practice >sessions are open to all---both beginning SOT's and closed deck boats to the >most advanced paddlers. > >However, the people who usually show up for any of these practice sessions >are the ones who already have these skills (maybe they have them because we >are always practicing them) and not the ones who need to learn or practice >them. I guess you can't convince some people that it's not a question of if >you go swimming, but when. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Shirley writes: There must be some way of resolving the code red caution of the drysuiters with the more optimistic neoprene-clad. . . . Guidance, probability factors, tales, and wisecracks would be appreciated! ------------------------- Just for the fun of it, some months ago I tried to see if there had ever been any objective research on the insulating differences between wetsuits and drysuits. In other words, if you wear a wetsuit or a drysuit in X degree water for Y minutes, what is the effect of each on maintaining body temperature? I launched myself out into the Internet and contacted the Navy, the Coast Guard, wetsuit and drysuit manufacturers, universities that had done research on hypothermia, and people who had done research on the insulating properties of various fabrics. What I expected to hear was something like this: "a 180 pound man with 15 percent body fat wearing thus-and-such wetsuit in 40 degree water will lose 3 degrees of body temperature in 20 minutes; the same person wearing thus-and- such drysuit will lose 3 degrees of body temperature in 40 minutes." Or something like that. But that's not what I heard. I actually got responses from some of these folks. The general theme of the responses was "well, you see, this is very difficult, there are a number of factors, it all depends. . . ," and so on. It appears that there never has been any research on the topic. At least, I couldn't find any, nor could I find anyone who had heard of any. The most "solid" information I got was the assumption that since a drysuit is more comfortable in cold water, that it would help you to maintain body temperature "longer." But there was no indication as to how much "longer" would be. So it appears that there is no one who actually has any *data* on how much longer a drysuit would let you tolerate cold water vs. a wetsuit. I was very surprised by this. jim holman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Jim writes: > So it appears that there is no one who actually has any *data* on how much > longer a drysuit would let you tolerate cold water vs. a wetsuit. I was very > surprised by this. There are some projects ore at least, one project on this special topic, in Europe. Further, there are some source with different "facts", but it is like this ambivalent answer "sometimes this way, sometimes other way round...". you have to see these problem on a wider point of view. There was this horrific FerryAccident, Estonia in the Baltic Sea, many years ago. Most of the few people in the life rafts die on hypothermia (the sinking was in the night during a heavy storm). But there was this lorry driver, he survived several hours with almost nothing on. Sitting between the dead people. What makes him hypothermia-resistent? It has many to do with psychological effects, the willing to live and - luck. In Europe is a project, called SARRRAH (3 Rīs), itīs something with different Navys and health organizisations, and gives concrete help and advice to all first aid helpers and doctors. They try to collect everything on cold water accidents, to get more infos all about. Have a look at www.sarrrah.de (?). I gave this adress to Jack Martin, maybe he knows something more on this, meanwhile. I know a german paddler wo get closer contact to one active member (professor xyz in Kiel) in the Sarrrah Project. He might be able to give you the best information availbale at this time. His Name is Eckehard Schirmer and his Email-Program got a failure, he receives mails but couldnīt send... poor Eckehard :-)) But try it, better than nothing kanuschirmer_at_t-online.de . He grew up with english, so no problem. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I live and usually paddle in southern California where very cold water, on a very cold morning, during a very cold winter might be as low as 51F. Still we use wetsuits or farmer John/dry-top combinations, or sometimes just shorts and a dry top for some activities like surfing or rock gardening. Nothing here ever comes close to justifying a full dry suit, so none of us have them. The consensus (non-scientific) among the people I paddle with is that dry tops are not just more comfortable, but considerably warmer. By wearing enough poly under them, they can even be unbearably warm. Steve Brown ------------------------- Just for the fun of it, some months ago I tried to see if there had ever been any objective research on the insulating differences between wetsuits and drysuits. In other words, if you wear a wetsuit or a drysuit in X degree water for Y minutes, what is the effect of each on maintaining body temperature? I launched myself out into the Internet and contacted the Navy, the Coast Guard, wetsuit and drysuit manufacturers, universities that had done research on hypothermia, and people who had done research on the insulating properties of various fabrics. What I expected to hear was something like this: "a 180 pound man with 15 percent body fat wearing thus-and-such wetsuit in 40 degree water will lose 3 degrees of body temperature in 20 minutes; the same person wearing thus-and- such drysuit will lose 3 degrees of body temperature in 40 minutes." Or something like that. But that's not what I heard. I actually got responses from some of these folks. The general theme of the responses was "well, you see, this is very difficult, there are a number of factors, it all depends. . . ," and so on. It appears that there never has been any research on the topic. At least, I couldn't find any, nor could I find anyone who had heard of any. The most "solid" information I got was the assumption that since a drysuit is more comfortable in cold water, that it would help you to maintain body temperature "longer." But there was no indication as to how much "longer" would be. So it appears that there is no one who actually has any *data* on how much longer a drysuit would let you tolerate cold water vs. a wetsuit. I was very surprised by this. jim holman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Ralph wrote: >Underwater times in excess of 60 minutes usually left us barely able to control the shivering upon resurfacing, i.e., well along on the road of hypothermia (I hasten to add that the situation was fully controlled, that there were safety boats... >The above should give you some corner posts for initial orientation. Shirley, I tell the "hairy chested" stories to illustrate that all the statistics and theoretical information will not replace personal trial and error. The caveat that statistics and even your anecdotal corner posts will not replace personal trial and error is a good one. It would be foolish for someone to say, "Ralph swam in it and was okay," I'll be okay. But, quite sane to say, "Ralph swam in it...it might not be so bad...maybe I should swim and see how I react" >Perhaps a swimming session with the entire group will improve comfort levels ... or weed out those who are not up for it -- and if you're afraid to get wet (or, in this case, wet and cold) better not to go out. Amen to that, too. I think we've harped long enough to the "unsuspecting masses" with a blanket statement that they should "wear immersion protection". That means very little to most. An easier 'gospel to preach' would be--"have you swum in the water temperature you're paddling in the gear you are wearing?" Let them feel the biting cold and come to their own conclusions. It opens eyes! (and also causes a lot of involuntary gasps!) The only given is that we'll all tip sooner or later--that's probably the fact to hang onto most tightly. Shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - establish your business online http://webhosting.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/11/2003 7:49:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, sh_at_actglobal.net writes: > ... However, the people who usually show up for any of these practice > sessions are the ones who already have these skills (maybe they have them > because we are always practicing them) and not the ones who need to learn > or practice them. I guess you can't convince some people that it's not a > question of if you go swimming, but when. ... Apparently if you do something every day for a mere 30 days it becomes a habit. To be realistic in the context of paddling, let's assume that if you do something 30 times at regular, not too long intervals, the same result will occur even if it's not every day. On that basis I suggest that paddlers in general practice getting wet every time they go paddling, depending on conditions either before or after the main part of the day's paddling activities. And then they should continue the habit automatically ... ... and pretty soon one knows first hand pretty much before leaving home whether one wants to go paddling in a particular set of clothing in a given set of conditions ... Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_Atlatl-Kayaks.com / Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.Atlatl-Kayaks.com / www.PouchBoats.com phone: +1-802-649-2555 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
jim holman wrote: <SNIP>>>>>>So it appears that there is no one who actually has any *data* on how much longer a drysuit would let you tolerate cold water vs. a wetsuit. I was very surprised by this.<<<<<<< I recall some studies that the U. S. Air Force and/or Navy did in trying to find a flight suit that would be both relatively comfortable for pilots to wear and that would significantly aid survivability in cold water bail out situations. I think the results were republished in an issue of Sea Kayaker along with a safety article I wrote. This would have been in the mid-1980's and didn't directly compare wet-suits and dry suits (as we know them today) but at least they did consider the pilot's comfort to be an important issue too. I could only find a mention of it on page 112 of Deep Trouble but I think it was part of the same study that included the major benefits of getting out of the water (such as on a life raft) even if still exposed to the wet and wind. The University of Victoria on Vancouver Island studied hypothermia back then too. I imagine they may have tested different clothing and survival suits for heat loss as well. As I recall they would time how much time it took various people to lower their core temperature to 95 degrees. They never intentionally went any lower as 95 degrees was considered to still be a safe temperature from a physiological point of view. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
There is a prof at the University of Manitoba that studies cold water immersion. He was featured in OUTSIDE magazine (I think last month) - the article was "Meet Professor Popsicle" - see link to partial info below. http://outsideonline.com/outside/features/200212/200212_popsicle_splash.html His official homepage is at: http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/physed/research/people/giesbrecht.shtml He is apparently unique in that on a fairly routine basis he subjects himself to experimental conditions -lowering his body temp below 95 degrees. Might be a good resource person - maybe someone could drop him an email regarding the current Paddlewise discussion....someone more versed in cold water paddling than I. Keith *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Keith writes: His official homepage is at: http://www.umanitoba.ca/faculties/physed/research/people/giesbrecht.shtml ---------------------------------------------- Thanks for the reference. I just sent him an email. I'll let you know if he responds. By the way, I found the response that I received from the Kokatat company: - - - - - - - - Hi Jim, Thanks for the inquiry. Now this is a complex question. I will try to hit all the major points of your questions; if you still have more, you can certainly call us. On the subject of "Quantitative Data": people have done some testing but never in such a way that it was not skewed to provide the outcome the researcher wanted. There are just too many variables to account for; to try and recreate a "real world" (i.e. uncontrolled) situation in a scientifically measurable (i.e. controlled) environment is next to impossible. Some of the variables are: air temperature, water temperature, activity level, insulating layers, personal heat production ability (which is affected by things like sleep and food eaten), body type (do you provide your own insulation?) and personal heat variance tolerance. I do not know where to find the data that does exist. The Bottom Line, both wetsuits and dry suits substantially improve chances of survival in extreme conditions as well as comfort in normal conditions. As to which is better, it seems to come down to personal opinion. We believe in dry suits. The main advantage of dry suits is their versatility. A dry suit is only a waterproof, windproof (and in the case of Gore-Tex, breathable) shell, that in and of itself it has very little insulation value; its warmth retention value comes from its ability to keep your insulating layers dry and keeping the wind out. On the warmest days you can wear very little underneath the suit, or on the coldest or most exposed days, you can layer on thick the insulation (base wicking layer, and then thicker insulating layers of fleece). Remember to be as safe as possible, one should dress according to the water temperature, not the air temperature. Please also check out our website, go to the section called "Dressing for Paddle Sports" www.kokatat.com/dressing.htm Happy Paddling Kokatat - - - - - - - - - - - jim holman *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
The results of Jim's research into wet suits vs dry suits are certainly surprising. Perhaps local experimentation is in order using Ralph's group swim suggestion? If someone medically-trained devises a protocol, that is. The suggestion of an early spring, carefully monitored, group swim is an excellent one. Experience ought to be the best teacher. Maybe--before immersion-- watch a video clip of a polar bear club in action, to realize how much warmer we will be? Shirley *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt said: >snip< >>The University of Victoria on Vancouver Island studied hypothermia back then too. I imagine they may have tested different clothing and survival suits for heat loss as well.<< I did a fair bit of research for an article in SK Mag on the Baffin tragedy. I accessed a fair amount of information, as well as spoke with personnel involved with the UVIC research. The Ministry of Health building where I work had a fair amount of material too. Anyway, the upshot of the research went directly (or perhaps indirectly) toward the development of the Mustang Classic Floater Coat with its deployable drop-down neoprene beavertail hypothermia protection, this being the outcome of some of the research I suppose (slowing down core temperature-loss through the groin area). Additionally, as you may recall, the Sea Seat was also developed - but never caught on. During my research, there was a definite bias toward drysuits with those I talked to, due to the fact that the drysuit prevented direct skin contact with water (and assuming insulation values were apparent with undergarments). Wetsuits had their place too, but not in the thickness we associate with paddling, normally. Right or wrong, I summarized my recommendations in the article. Right or wrong, I have my own ideas with respect to what I wear, and when. Right or wrong, all paddlers have to make a choice every time they head out -- and sometimes the choice was right, and sometimes it wasn't. Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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