Wetsuit or Drysuit? Why not both. That's what I used back when I was surfing the WA coast in January at least after I bought the drysuit. I thought the Farmer John was the ideal undergarment. Even if my dry suit developed a serious leak and let in that 45 to 50 degree water and I was facing one of those long swims in the surf that can happen at LaPush, I'd still have some hypothermia protection from the Farmer John. All in all though I'm in full agreement with what one of my old surfing buddies from back in the 80's, Robert Livingston, just wrote on the subject in Paddlewise. Anything you say, write or do can be used, twisted, distorted and misrepresented against you, by some slimy weasel, in a court of law. One of my best friends, a lawyer, says if stopped by the police don't answer any questions beyond identifying yourself. Ralph, it wasn't my lawyer but a lawyer talking to the trade association that warned against providing any guidance in safety matters. The choice was write it and potentially have it used against you or not write it and potentially have more customers whose families wanted to sue you. I chose the later potentially more risky (in the judgment of the lawyer) option. Doug I bought the UVIC designed Mustang Float coat, you described, back then to test it out. It was way too bulky, stiff and heavy for paddling in. I used it for walking the beach at night but not paddling. I still have it and would probably wear it if I were sailing in rough weather and cold water. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
In a message dated 3/13/2003 4:05:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, mkayaks_at_oz.net writes: > ... Ralph, it wasn't my lawyer but a lawyer talking to the trade association > that warned against providing any guidance in safety matters. The choice > was write it and potentially have it used against you or not write it and > potentially have more customers whose families wanted to sue you. I chose > the later potentially more risky (in the judgment of the lawyer) option. > ... Matt, for better or for worse I'm in your camp on this one, originally unintentionally (in the course of normal communications) but increasingly intentionally having left a trail of words behind me over time that might certainly be construed as "safety advice" ... at the end of the day there's not much to sue for around here (to clarify: There's a German saying that roughly translates to, "you can't put your hand in a naked man's pocket"), which in itself may be the best defense against lawsuits! Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn Ralph_at_Atlatl-Kayaks.com / Ralph_at_PouchBoats.com www.Atlatl-Kayaks.com / www.PouchBoats.com phone: +1-802-649-2555 *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Matt said: >>Wetsuit or Drysuit? Why not both.<< Matt, you will probably remember some of the text you were working on from the Storm Island article, the one that didn't get published. One of the paddlers on the crossing was indeed wearing a Farmer John under his rugged-duty, bibbed drysuit.Additionally, he was wearing polypro underwear, under his Farmer John, as well as a fleece pile sweater over the Farmer John. His kayak must have been leaking badly for an hour before the rescue occurred (split seams), in addition to the six hours plodding on through gale force seas. He said he'd never been so cold in his life when we were finally picked up. He hadn't even really been in the water. The other paddler, Andrew, has gone into the first stages of hypothermia in his Farmer John/paddling jacket/polypro apparel sometime part way through the crossing. Neither were ever really in the water. My point is, hypothermia immersion apparel is important, even if you don't end up in the water. Their gear didn't yield enough protection as it was, let alone if an immersion scenario had taken place. What emphasis does that place on what you wear? I value my immersion apparel for a lot more than immersion protection. I think this needs to be highlighted too, especially for more exposed paddling conditions. Some of those survival suits paddlers wear aren't too bad for immersion wear (temporarily), but I'd rule them out up front anyway, as water just shoots up the cuffs and soaks your core eventually. But, it entirely depends on the waters you are paddling in. The other part of the equation left out in our discussions is the type of boat one paddles. A low volume kayak with a low-profile foredeck is going to be a lot wetter ride than some HV touring boat. I wear my wetsuit all summer long, as I just get too many drips and runs of water to make fleece or shorts a viable option. But I've seen guys alight from their high-decked kayaks, back after an afternoon off Wouwer in the late-day chop, with not a drop of water on their MEC nylon pants -- dry as a bone. Correlating with the above is the other item I'd like to highlight. Immersion apparel for a kayaker isn't "immersion apparel". Scott made some good points about wetsuit technology, and the lack of wetsuit manufacturers marketing thermal underwear for use under wetsuits. But kayakers are a separate sport with specific differences. We are cobbling different technologies and sports apparel and gear together, and applying it to a sport that is implicitly individualistic - more so than many other recreational activities. I always wear polypro under my wetsuit in the winter, and I even add nylon windpants to ward off convective heat loss if needed. I'm not wearing my wetsuit underwater. Thick fleece is different. That goes over my wetsuit. Interestingly enough, Scott's logic isn't too fuzzy: while I came through the crossing with flying colours in the thermal department, two hours on the Coast Guard cutter in a wetsuit with wet polypro underneath finally took its toll and I went into an involuntary shivering bonanza when we arrived back at the dock. The polypro under the wetsuit worked fine as long as I was moving. There are no perfect answers, and I think the poster(s) know this. Still, it is interesting to hear various opinions and more so, preferences and the thinking/experience behind the various positions. A little less hubris at times would be nice however from all quarters (I include myself here). In fact, none of us are experts or industry insiders on a lot of matters pertaining to paddling that we talk about here on this list no matter how much we fuss and preen (but not all issues, of course). You also said: >>All in all though I'm in full agreement with what one of my old surfing buddies from back in the 80's, Robert Livingston, just wrote on the subject in Paddlewise.<< Yes, Robert's recent post was perhaps one of the most articulate, well crafted posts I have ever read on Paddlewise on the subject of paddling apparel and the issue surrounding personal choice. I was a little upset that he used one of my posts to springboard into the rejoiner. Yes, I like proper immersion apparel utilized for kayaking, or specific paddling gear where available to meet a niche, myself, and generally recommend it as a default proviso if my opinion is sought. Paddlers in Puget Sound can wear whatever they wish. Just remember the "law of unintended consequences," and so build in some safety margin somewhere, then live or die with your choices (or shiver or whatever). I'd certainly have to agree that a growing number of my competent, proficient paddling friends are increasingly moving toward paddling with comfort in mind, not immersion. That's fine. Just keep up a healthy respect for the sea. I'm sure Robert does. For all my bravado, I still fear the sea appropriately. A man or woman without fear is a man or women without hope. While one of your American presidents said the only thing to fear is fear itself, when it comes to paddling (depending on location), fear hypothermia. And you don't necessarily have to suffer immersion to become hypothermic. Okay, this is the spot where Scott or Duane jumps in about the true "killer," hyperthermia! :-) You said too: >>Doug I bought the UVIC designed Mustang Float coat, you described, back then to test it out. It was way too bulky, stiff and heavy for paddling in.<< I didn't mean to imply the Floater Coat was appropriate for paddling. I was simply highlighting the fact that this was one of the products that came about during that period of research development when it was realized that people loose a lot of heat out of their groin area during immersion in cold water. Cheers!! Doug Lloyd Victoria BC ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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Doug wrote: I didn't mean to imply the Floater Coat was appropriate for paddling. I was simply highlighting the fact that this was one of the products that came about during that period of research development when it was realized that people loose a lot of heat out of their groin area during immersion in cold water. Cheers!! I didn't mean to imply that you were recommending it for paddling in any way, I'm sorry if it read that way. Back then I was in full experimental mode and trying just about anything while looking for suitable paddling wear for me. One of my problems was I liked to paddle fast and I also tend to put out a lot of heat so staying cool enough while paddling can be a big problem for me. I wanted to find the product that could be unzipped or somehow opened for ventilation (and/or paddling comfort) but could be easily converted into its full heat retaining capacity once I was immersed just in case I had to spend a significant amount of time in the water. The UVIC float coat would do that for a sailor (and serve as the PFD as well) but it would not be suitable for a paddler due to its bulk, stiffness, and restriction of arm motions. Matt Broze http://www.marinerkayaks.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> I didn't mean to imply the Floater Coat was appropriate for paddling. Reminds me of a trip I took down a river in Alaska in the early spring of 1980. These full Mustang floater overall outfits had come out and I thought that might be just the thing. I am a little manic about new ideas. Anyway I spent a lot of my disposal income at the time on the thing, and a small group of us drove for two days to get to this river for a three day trip. I had thought that this would be useable on land and in the boat. As we prepared to leave, I proudly starting putting on this bright orange outfit as my friends looked on in awe. I was anticipating a toasty few days out in the wilderness. I started putting my right foot in the outfit and I could not get it out the leg hole. I was baffled. Then I put my hand up the leg but I could not get my hand to the waist of the outfit. It seemed impossible. I was so shocked that it took a while for the thing to sink in. When the suit had been constructed the lining was sewn only in two places, at the groin and at the pant cuff. But whoever had twisted the lining 360 degrees. You could go up or down the pant leg an arbitrary distance but you could never get out. I had so much invested in the suit that I did not dare rip it apart for fear they would never believe me at the store and refuse to take it back. I was young enough to have such concerns. It was not an ideal time to find out your entire wardrobe was defective but I suppose that it would have been worse on the deck of a sinking ship. It was a cold trip. I cannot remember all the details. Not much to learn except what they teach in kindergarten. Do not put all your eggs in one basket. Look before you leap. That kind of stuff... *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Robert Livingston & Pam Martin wrote >Do not put all your eggs in one basket. > > So true. Last year I brought in my sry suit and dry top for gasket replacements. The suit came back with wrist gaskets of different sizes, and the top came back with no wrist gaskets. Scissors took care of the suit gaskets easily enough, but it took a while to convince the shop owner that he had taken off the top's old gaskets but had forgotten to put on new ones. He was a very nice fellow (and by reputation a competent professional diver), but as with any of us, mistakes happen. I would not want to go out in uninstpected, untested gear. Cheers, Richard Culpeper *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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