Rob, if I were to add a core layer I would wear it under my farmer johns rather than over them. However, I guess it depends on what type of training you want to start!? Do I dare to assume it has something to do with paddling? Obviously, if you were to wear them on the outside and you got wet there would be very little insulation properties here, worn on the inside you'd be warmer. However, depending on how much you sweat you might start feeling a little cold and clammy if you became less active. A neoprene wetsuit is far from breathable and most of the moisture is just going to stay there. Wearing something like capilene or polypropylene may help wick some of the moisture out from under your farmer johns and may even add a little insulation by trapping moist/air between the weave! Personally, I'd stay away from a cotton core layer because I know how cold I've become when wearing it snowshoeing and when cotton gets wet it stays wet and I can understand when "THEY" say COTTON KILLS! I use to scuba dive when I was younger and for some reason saved my wet suit . I started kayaking a few years ago and used my farmer johns a number of times before purchasing a dry suit. Surprisingly, it still fits! Used with a dry top I actually stayed fairly dry when practicing my wet exits. Water doesn't really come up through the leg openings and with the jacket snug around the waist very little water enters under the jacket. Of course my farmer johns are for diving and are a little thicker than others I've seen advertised. I can remember though, when diving and entering the thermal cline how the cold water use to squirt in, up the lower back and it would make me jump every time until the water was warmed by the body. This is an ongoing occurrence while diving, move just right, squirt! I couldn't afford a scuba diving dry suit back then and I've heard there are special classes for wearing one. Nothing like diving head down because all the air has gone into the pant legs. Rob, though some of this has nothing to do with your question I've added a few things because of everything I've read lately about cold water clothing. I also don't have any data on wetsuits over dry suits and which one will let you tolerate the cold longer but I can tell you which I would choose and it would be a dry suit to keep me warmer! If I can be so bold, don't take my word for it ask an underwater diver who welds for a living, on some oil rig, in the North Atlantic, which he would put on! Bill Doody Hello All, I have a question regarding cold water/weather clothing and here it is: If I were wearing a farmer john style wetsuit, water proof socks, mid calf booties with a good outer sole, and a paddling or splash top, gloves, etc., would it be appropriate to wear a "core layer" garment under the farmer john or over it? I am trying to decide on acceptable late spring gear for the purposes of taking the training I want and starting earlier than June or July!! Advice always welcomed, Rob Castle *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Have followed the meandering discussion of whether to wear something under a wet suit, and if so, what. Could be that some focusing on the mechanisms of heat transfer would help. 1. Conduction: use materials that do not conduct well. Wet suit rubber, and __dry__ fleece/cotton/whatever (so long as it has lots of tiny, non-linked air spaces) are poor conductors. Water is not a terrific conductor, but it's better than air, so any lashup you have that is dry underneath is better than the same rig wet. Note: "wet" suits are touted as keeping you warm "... because of the thin layer of water." That's because all wet suits allow some water in -- so naturally it will be a layer of water that forms part of the insulating (conducting) layer. A "...thin layer of air" underneath would be a better insulator, but no wet suit can achieve that. 2. Convection: make it so whatever fluid (air or water) is underneath your outmost garment can not circulate. __Anything__ with tiny spaces in it (fleece, principally, for sea kayakers) will help minimize conduction. So, go ahead and wear some fleece under that wet suit -- it will help reduce convection as well as conduction, even when wet. 3. Circulation (taken here to mean exchange with cold water __outside__ your wet suit): pretty simple: avoid wet suit/bootie/top/headgear arrangements that allow external water to freely circulate into your wet suit. a "tight" wet suit -- as Duane says-- is better than a loose one. In addition, many suits have leaky seams. And, one small rip in the knee will really ruin that insulating layer. 4. Radiation: use materials that "reflect" your own heat __back__ to you. Some of the newer varieties of wet suits tout "titanium" flecks or similar. A shiny coating of metallized mylar would be better, but so stiff it would not work. Upshot: not much improvement to be gained here. 5. Evaporation (from the surface of the wet suit to surrounding air; note that evaporation __within the layers under the wet suit__ is negligible, ina smuch as everything should be at 100% humidity, and there is no gradient of humidity to drive any __net__ evaporation): the only option is to select an exterior material that __sheds__ water, and does not hold it. Surfers or yore used wet suits with __rubber__ exteriors (not nylon), for that reason. Impractical, in my view, because the rubber tears and wears easily. Bottom line: Make your wet suit have: No leaks; close fit; fleece underneath; titanium (or similar) in the rubber mix. That leaves out one main variable: how "wet" your wet suit is inside: and, turns out that is moot: it's gonna be wet from __you__ or the surrounding water, so if you want to minimize this ....... get a bloody dry suit! And, that's an entirely different kettle of fish. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Dave said: >huge snip of some very good info< >Bottom line: Make your wet suit have: No leaks; close fit; fleece underneath; titanium (or similar) in the rubber mix.< Dave, I chose the "tight is better" differential when I purchased my wetsuit. Being close fitting attire, I can't really wear thick fleece underneath, just light to mid-weight polypro. Due to the "law of conservation of mass" I'm a little fatter than before, so things are real tight now. What weight/thickness of fleece are you referring to? Enquiring minds want to know (what say you Greybeard?). Doug Lloyd Victoria BC (where El Nino has dissipated and storms are coming fast and furious - yeah) ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ "Whatever can be said at all can be said clearly and whatever cannot be said clearly should not be said at all." Ludwig Wittgenstein ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Doug, any insulation that fits under the wetsuit (without constricting blood circulation or impeding muscle activity) will help. That thin polypro will help some, but not much. If your wet suit had been bought with more room, you might have been able to make use of 100-weight fleece, and benefited from it. Note that what divers do about this might be different than we surface-dwellers, because at depth the external pressure will compress the insulation and might make it pretty useless. In any case, I would not go much beyond 100-weight, because if you get too much room under there, you might get more leakage or circulation allowing exchange with colder outside water at the ankles or wrists or at the hips. If a paddler is hoping to use thick fleece under a wet suit to deal with really cold water, I think he/she should seriously consider a drysuit, anyway. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Lloyd" <dalloyd_at_telus.net> > Dave said: > >Bottom line: Make your wet suit have: No leaks; close fit; fleece underneath; titanium (or similar) in the rubber mix. >> > I chose the "tight is better" differential when I purchased my wetsuit. > Being close fitting attire, I can't really wear thick fleece underneath, > just light to mid-weight polypro. Due to the "law of conservation of mass" > I'm a little fatter than before, so things are real tight now. > What weight/thickness of fleece are you referring to? Enquiring minds want > to know (what say you Greybeard?). *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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