Dave Kruger wrote: >Before any of those techniques will seem important, he has to >have a reason to know them: he needs to be motivated. Then he might take >on the responsibility to learn some. Right philosophy... >If I only had three minutes, I'd swim him (in his PFD) into the water fifty >feet off a safe beach, with the kayak in swamped, Cleopatra's Needle >position, and tell him, "This is what will happen if you capsize. Now >what?" Oh, but the wrong approach for the discount stores who only care about their liability of strapping the new boat to the car for the ride home... But the philosophy is right - they need to be motivated to seek help on their own. And I have to agree making them go for a swim would have a high success rate...for those that did it. Gordon Snapp wrote: >I'd say kayak makers should put something like that in their >owner's manual - dangers of capsize, difficulty of re-entry, need for >floatation in both ends, procedures for removing water from the cockpit. >(Do they already? I'll bet they do.) Now I think we are in the range of leveraging something realistic. But you know, I think some sort of warning came with the new kayaks I bought. I couldn't tell you what they said, but I think the message was somewhat tame. You're not going to find the perfect solution, but let me suggest this: Get ACA to produce a trimmed down version of their report. Just a few of the tables to scare someone enough into getting their attention. Maybe ACA would agree to produce the mini flyer for free and give them to manufacturers in exchange for allowing them to also include a ACA membership form. This mini flyer should be short - a few tables from the report about the top canoe/kayak fatality causes, and suggested resources to find more info. The message has to grab your attention: LOOK - IF YOU HAVE LESS THAN 100 HOURS OF EXPERIENCE, DO NOT WEAR YOUR PFD, CONSUME ALCOHOL, OR NOT KNOW HOW TO PERFORM A SELF RESCUE, YOU STAND A SIGNIFICANTLY GREATER CHANCE OF DYING WHEN USING THIS PRODUCT. SEE INSIDE FOR ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON HOW TO MITIGATE THESE RISKS. I'd like to see ACA do this as I'm interested in saving all humans, not just the ones who paddle closed deck boats... In it also in the manufacturer's best interest as well. Regulation will stunt the large growth spurt in kayak/canoe sales. As for Nick's fat guy (of which I'm a member of the same club), it is too late to save him. The only thing you can do is try and save the next guy that buys a pungo. Will it work? I dunno. But it does seem a bit more likely to pull off than pushing people over or making them watch a video, which we know is not going to happen in the discount retailers. My 2 cents, Woody Woody's Kayak Trip Reports http://woody.myhomeserver.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> If you had his attention at a demo for 3 minutes, what would you show > the guy that could potentially save his life? > I think I would try to sell him a copy of the book, "Deep Trouble." In fact, I think that book, or something very similar to it, should come with every kayak purchase. The problem here is making people aware of the dangers associated with sea kayaking. Including the book with the purchase of the kayak does not a guarantee that they will read it. But I will bet more do then don't. And that would be a huge step in the right direction. Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> If you had his attention at a demo for 3 minutes, what would you show > the guy that could potentially save his life? > I might suggest a sling of rope or webbing that could go around the outside of the coaming and be long enough to go down in the water enough to form a step for him. Then I would try to get across the notion of leaning forward and getting the boat under him rather than trying to step up into it. Most boats of that ilk are wide and flat and could still support him long enough to get bailed out.... That might be something he might have around, rather than a paddlefloat. Joe P. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thursday, April 17, 2003, at 07:19 PM, KiAyker_at_aol.com wrote: >> If you had his attention at a demo for 3 minutes, what would you show >> the guy that could potentially save his life? >> > > I think I would try to sell him a copy of the book, "Deep Trouble." > In > fact, I think that book, or something very similar to it, should come > with > every kayak purchase. The problem here is making people aware of the > dangers > associated with sea kayaking. Including the book with the purchase of > the > kayak does not a guarantee that they will read it. But I will bet more > do > then don't. And that would be a huge step in the right direction. My fisherman would say: "I'm ain't doin crazy sh*t like them guys. I's just havin a little fun an goin fishin. Them guys is jus dum. 'Magin goin out in the ocean in a little boat like that. They's just fools." The casual kayak see what they are doing as completely different from what you and I like to do. They don't have the first clue that there is serious risk in going out in a kayak on a nice calm summer day. We first need to convince them that there is a risk, we then need to teach them how to decrease the risk. And failing that we should still try to teach them a few things that would keep them alive if they ever need to save themselves. If Tim were here he would say they should all be required to buy sponsons. We should be able to come up with something better than that. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick Schade wrote: > My fisherman would say: "I'm ain't doin crazy sh*t like them guys. I's > just havin a little fun an goin fishin. Them guys is jus dum. 'Magin > goin out in the ocean in a little boat like that. They's just fools." Around here the fisherman would never be caught dead (umm, that's a figure of speech, understand) in a little plastic rec boat. He'd be in a proper jon boat, which is essentially a 14'x4'x1' aluminum box with good primary stability and virtually no secondary. They are hard to turn over, and basically impossible to rescue. No jon boat user is ever going to take a rescue class, because he knows he won't turn over, and in fact is 99+% right. Unfortunately, he won't wear a PDF, either, which is why several of them drown every year when the stand up to pee after the first half of the six pack. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
How about this. First of all, every power tool, ladder, etc. has a section on hazards. I'd say kayak makers should put something like that in their owner's manual - dangers of capsize, difficulty of re-entry, need for floatation in both ends, procedures for removing water from the cockpit. (Do they already? I'll bet they do.) Perhaps the boat should sell with a plastic bag full of styrofoam stuck in the bow. Perhaps the bag full of styrofoam should say (in huge letters) "removing this could cause death!!!", followed by a direction to read the owner's manual. The plastic bag full of styrofoam would cost next to nothing, so it wouldn't jack up the price of the boat. Including a pump as part of the package might be good - it wouldn't cost much and might impress upon the purchaser that there might be a danger. Then again, all this is probably moot. You can lead an idiot to appropriate caution, but you can't make him/her partake. - Gordon Snapp *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> So, in reality I'm curious what actions you more experienced PWers out > there believe could bring this guy home at the end of the night? I think what Nick is asking here is just how much can you educate an inexperienced individual with a three minute attention span. Not really very much, I'm afraid. Certainly there are ways for someone to extract themselves from the situation, but they all rely on a certain amount of preparation, knowledge and experience. In other words, our hapless victim in up the creek. Education is the key. Just how to distribute the lessons is the question. Certification? I really don't think so. One is required to go through fairly extensive training and testing in order to receive a drivers license. Does that eliminate the idiot drivers who speed, drive while intoxicated, and try to beat the red lights? Hardly. But at least drivers are somewhat aware of the risks. The problem with sea kayaking is that a large number of people get into it without any idea of what can happen - like Nick's fisherman. You can't save them all. The best we can do is to try to make them aware of the risks involved. How to do this in a manner that is practical is the dilemma. If you want to really want reach the masses then how about turning "Deep Trouble" into a movie :-)) Scott So.Cal. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Wow.... After reading all these informed replies I wouldn't let a single overweight guy who likes to fish in a boat; let alone a kayak, without at least 6 months of intensive survival training by the appropriate government authority. Come on guys! Who of you took one lesson before casting off the first time? Many I suppose; so don't tell me please. Jeeez, are we so lame we can't take chances without gov't approval? I'm sorry, I don't buy into any of this at all. I've met all kinds of first timers who had a lot more sense than I would ever credited them with..... Sometimes they're lucky and meet watermen, sometimes they're just plain lucky. Not a popular frame of mind I'll admit. Remember the first guy in a bull boat had no lessons; Ericksen went West. no lessons.....Rasmussen went East, no lessons. Fridjof Nansen went wherever he wanted, no lessons required. Amundssen, what can you say? No certificates needed before entering the water...... It's an affair of the heart. Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Thursday, April 17, 2003, at 11:51 PM, Kevin50110_at_aol.com wrote: > Wow.... After reading all these informed replies I wouldn't let a > single > overweight guy who likes to fish in a boat; let alone a kayak, without > at > least 6 months of intensive survival training by the appropriate > government > authority. > > Come on guys! Who of you took one lesson before casting off the first > time? > Many I suppose; so don't tell me please. Jeeez, are we so lame we > can't take > chances without gov't approval? I'm sorry, I don't buy into any of > this at > all. I've met all kinds of first timers who had a lot more sense than > I would > ever credited them with..... Sometimes they're lucky and meet watermen, > sometimes they're just plain lucky. Not a popular frame of mind I'll > admit. > > Remember the first guy in a bull boat had no lessons; Ericksen went > West. no > lessons.....Rasmussen went East, no lessons. Fridjof Nansen went > wherever he > wanted, no lessons required. Amundssen, what can you say? > > No certificates needed before entering the water...... It's an affair > of the > heart. I agree with you completely. The ultimate purpose of this exercise for me is to find ways to circumvent any future attempts to regulate kayaking. Laws have been proposed for the last two years in Connecticut. I have no reason think that there won't be another one next year. So far the laws have been dropped after a bunch of angry kayakers went to the public hearings. Public hearings are not as much fun as kayaking. I don't want to go to any more. The fact that I feel people should be entitled to the right to risk their life if they want to will not stop some legislator, looking to make his mark, from proposing a law to "save" people from themselves. The best bet is to make the "problem" he wants to "solve" go away without his "help". The reason I want to save the fat fisherman is not any great sense of altruism on my part. Because of the way the system works, each time a person in a canoe or kayak dies it creates more pressure for some "well-meaning" legislator to "do something". The likely result of this is a burdensome law which doesn't save any lives. I am looking for ideas to circumvent this process. If I can serve my selfish desire not to have the government interfere with my pass-time and improve the safety of the fat fisherman at the same time, so much the better. Nick Schade Guillemot Kayaks 824 Thompson St Glastonbury, CT 06033 USA Ph/Fx: (860) 659-8847 http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/ *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
AGREE!! Next time I am sweltering in a Gulf Coast August envious of you folks in the northeast (where it is slightly better, although I sweated in Rhode Island a couple of years ago) I will remember this. No one would even think of proposing such a law down here--at least not yet. Save me from people wanting to save me!! Marsanne more. The fact that I feel > people should be entitled to the right to risk their life if they want > to will not stop some legislator, looking to make his mark, from > proposing a law to "save" people from themselves *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
----- Original Message ----- <Kevin50110_at_aol.com> wrote: > Wow.... After reading all these informed replies I wouldn't let a single > overweight guy who likes to fish in a boat; let alone a kayak, without at > least 6 months of intensive survival training by the appropriate government > authority. > > Come on guys! Who of you took one lesson before casting off the first time? > Many I suppose; so don't tell me please. Jeeez, are we so lame we can't take > chances without gov't approval? I'm sorry, I don't buy into any of this at > all. I've met all kinds of first timers who had a lot more sense than I would > ever credited them with..... 1) I took a lesson before my first kayak paddle (in a sit on top). 2) I read extensively about dangers, rescues, etc. before getting into my homebuilt closed deck boat. Based on my reading I went to a lake and practiced self rescues in shallow water before ever going into deep, cold, ocean water. 3) I've heard stories of several kayakers dying on the west coast in the past few years. All the ones I remember involved non-experienced paddlers in sit-on-tops who got blown out to sea, or who got separated from their boats, which blew away from them. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels wrote; *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels wrote; I'm imagining a one-shot video of 3 minutes. The shot starts with a happy paddler, in a beautiful sunset. Calm, glassy waves reflect the colors of the sun: Pure bliss and beauty. A large vessel comes by at quite a distance. and; The film will go to fast-forward, so the 3 minute shot will end with the sun going down on the scene, leaving the viewer in total darkness. I say; In my opinion this is the best answer so far. With this kind of film, one may be able to get it on a news or public interest program. I have heard a lot of kayakers say how they had wished someone had told them about the dangers of paddling when they first started out. Hey Matt, here is your chance...do the film! Matt said; I've never tried dumping or reentering a Pungo, with or without bow flotation, so I don't know if either of the above proposed methods would have much chance of success with that particular kayak. I say; I haven't either, but I have tried to help a rather large paddler learn how to get back into his Pungo type boat. I first tried the paddle float, then the sling. Then I tried hiking out on the opposite side to counterbalance the boat, with no success. I never did get him back in the boat. What else could I have done? Ronnie *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Like the video ideas, especially distribution on cable systems. Don't expect many kayak manufacturers (sans Broze) to endorse this, though. Most manufacturers want to sell boats and regard "scare tactics" as anathema to sales. Responsible guys like Matt are rare. Matt earned my undying respect when he told me to __not__ buy one of his high-performance boats when I stumbled into his shop as a bare-assed newbie, back in '92 (was that 1892 or 1792? I'm so old I forget!) and asked for "... a stable boat ..." Seriously, a video that goes home with the boat is a good move. A good share of new boaters will look at it. And, mass-produced, a video is cheap. With DVD players ubiquitous, a CD could slide into a pocket of the owner's pamphlet and help retailers absolve themselves of some of the responsibility. If I were suggesting the ACA take steps to solve the problem, I'd make that a priority. The pamphlet identifies pieces of the problem. The next step is to solve the problem. -- Dave Kruger Astoria, OR *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nick: ... The fact that I feel people should be entitled to the right to risk their life if they want to will not stop some legislator, looking to make his mark, from proposing a law to "save" people from themselves ... Marsanne: AGREE!! Next time I am sweltering in a Gulf Coast August envious of you folks in the northeast (where it is slightly better, although I sweated in Rhode Island a couple of years ago) I will remember this. No one would even think of proposing such a law down here--at least not yet. Save me from people wanting to save me!! ... and Matt already pointed out that it might be a good idea to bear in mind who stands to gain (financially and / or in other ways, no doubt). "Certifying", "licensing" and similar procedures will to some extent legally shift "responsibility" from an accident "victim" to other persons or entities with potentially much deeper pockets. Call me cynical if you will, but it makes you wonder, doesn't it? Makes me wonder whether there isn't something to the New Hampshire license plate slogan after all: Live Free or Die. (And then I'm reminded of the fishing paddlers / paddling fishermen last summer in their aluminium canoe sitting on a case of beer each ... both cases empty by 11 o'clock in the morning as they returned from their unsuccessful early morning fishing trip grumbling about having to chase off the bald eagles, which they blamed for scaring "their" fish away ...) Best regards, Ralph Ralph C. Hoehn Folding Boat Center P.O. Box 700 Enfield NH 03748 info_at_FoldingBoatCenter.com www.FoldingBoatCenter.com phone: +1-802-649-2555 -- Ralph phone: +1-603-632-9500 -- Alv (yup, they rhyme) *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
nick_at_guillemot-kayaks.com wrote: >"I'm ain't doin crazy sh*t like them guys" Maybe a quick, simple version of Deep Trouble written only about rec. boats. The original Deep Trouble opened a lot of sea kayaker's eyes. I'm sure I'm not the only one who said, "That could be me" and immediately went out to practice rescues and beef up my immersion clothing inventory. If the analogies were more parallel to the average rec. boater, they would have a harder time _not_ putting themselves in that dying boater's paddling shoes. >..We should be able to come up with something better... Hand him a 60lb. 10-horse 2-stroke outboard? :D >If it is not possible to teach the casual paddler how to be safe, maybe something should be done to make the boats themselves safer. Our "average" sea kayak is a relatively safe boat, yet there are still folks who have a hard time performing rescues in them. We're hoping to educate a less-fit, less-experienced boater to perform a rescue in a boat less optimized for self rescue--a boater who has no notion of ever tipping over in the first place? You can paddle a swamped kayak "submarine"...somewhat. Permanent foam flotation in the bow and stern could limit the amount of water in the cockpit to at least lessen the amount of inertia the fisherman would have to fight, paddling his overladen kayak to shore. Thanks for the scenario, though. I'm fired up to demonstrate this at the upcoming local Paddlefest. I want to try this out and see how it works...soon and for my own edification...but I'm also hesitant to "practice" this before the Paddlefest. Doing the demonstration "cold" would be much more valuable to those viewing. shawn __________________________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo http://search.yahoo.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
On Fri, 18 Apr 2003 10:17:32 -0700 (PDT), "Shawn Baker" <shawnkayak_at_yahoo.com> said: > Thanks for the scenario, though. I'm fired up to demonstrate this at > the upcoming local Paddlefest. I want to try this out and see how it > works...soon and for my own edification...but I'm also hesitant to > "practice" this before the Paddlefest. Doing the demonstration "cold" > would be much more valuable to those viewing. Got a "Joe Fisherman" to work with? I think having someone dressed the part for this would be great. I particularly like the low upper body strength aspect of the example. Hooking a 5 gallon pail of water would work well for faking the fish. Using a nice 2 hand grab to pick the fish out of the water should send you over. My son, when he was 4, inverted a keowee(rec kayak) doing a 2 hand grab to pick up his paddle, I was surprised how easily a 35 pound person tipped over a 55 pound rec boat. Kirk -- Kirk Olsen kork4_at_cluemail.com *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Somebody wrote: > >If it is not possible to teach the casual paddler how to be safe, > maybe > something should be done to make the boats themselves safer. > It's a well known fact that the safer the equipment, the more risks the user will take. This is proven with the use of seatbelts, airbags and ABS in cars. To make a boat safer, you'll have to find other solutions. I got some ideas: - Make the seat so uncomfortable that nobody wants to paddle the boat more then 50 meters offshore (Ooops... This is standard in composite boats) - Make a SOT with seats on both upper AND downside of the boat. - Let me drill holes in the hull, so it will sink after 50 meters, whatever you do. - Sell rodeo boats as seakayaks. By the time someone can paddle it in a straight line, he's had time enough to be educated. - Include 50 pounds of FREE Canadian Ballast Rocks in every kayak sale. The buyer will probably say "Gee, thanks, that's a bargain". The first times he goes out, carrying the rocks will wear him out before he starts paddling, making him ready for a nice, very short trip. By the time he discovers that the rocks weren't that nice a gift after all, he's had time to get some experience. - Warn a new owner that the inside of the kayak is NOT waterproof. When any water enters the cockpit, the hull will dissolve inside out in a matter of minutes. - Don't include a paddle in the sale. Sell them seperately on specific request. - Tell them a PFD is a Personal Fashion Device: It looks cool, but will sink like a brick. - Sell sponsons as a new, revolutionary kind of paddle. Explain how to put one in each hand, then kind of "walk" on your hands across the water. Did I make my point, or any point at all? Niels. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Niels Blaauw wrote: > Somebody wrote: > > >>>If it is not possible to teach the casual paddler how to be safe, >> >>maybe >>something should be done to make the boats themselves safer. > It's a well known fact that the safer the equipment, the more risks the > user will take. This is proven with the use of seatbelts, airbags and > ABS in cars. Actually, I think it's that the safer the equipment *feels* to the user, the more risks he will tend to take. Recreational kayaks feel very safe due to the large initial stability, so people will take them out far from shore without seeing the need for any extra safety equipment or training. The danger inherent in having inadequate flotation is only noticed when it's too late. Designs with adequate built-in flotation and less initial stability would simultaneously be safer and encourage the beginner to use them more cautiously. *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
> - Sell rodeo boats as seakayaks. By the time someone can paddle it in a > straight line, he's had time enough to be educated. I'm pretty sure I'd have a tough time doing a solo re-entry in deep water in my rodeo boat, *maybe* a re-enter and roll, but it'd be tough to get into that thing upside down. Geoff *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
<<Designs with adequate built-in flotation and less initial stability would simultaneously be safer and encourage the beginner to use them more cautiously.>> I thought that was a sea kayak. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
>If it is not possible to teach the casual paddler how to be safe, maybe something should be done to make the boats themselves safer. Our "average" sea kayak is a relatively safe boat, yet there are still folks who have a hard time performing rescues in them. We're hoping to educate a less-fit, less-experienced boater to perform a rescue in a boat less optimized for self rescue--a boater who has no notion of ever tipping over in the first place? Ignorance is not stupidity. The guy out fishing may be ignorant of what he faces. I would hesitate to say he is stupid because he is ignorant. Some things just don't occur to people. We paddled for 15 years in the canoe out bird watching. We did it in the usual birding outfit. We did it all year round. It never occurred to us what we were doing was at all risky. The only time we ever fell out was when we were playing around in nice, warm water. I started out in our Bayou, no flotation, in January. Nice 50 something day. Water is probably 40 something. I knew it was cold but it never occurred to me I might tip over. Paddle out on the Potomac. Paddled back. No big deal. Then I went to buy a boat and had to rent a wet suit to try the boat. Bought the boat and the wet suit. I THOUGHT I was safe because the shop seemed to feel comfortable sending people out in wet suits in Jan/Feb around DC. I'm REALLY glad I found out better before I took that Dec. swim in the Potomac. I had on a dry suit by then. Ignorance IS curable. I don't think stupidity was what Nick was addressing. We do face a real issue. I know I don't want to plaster those ugly stickers all over my boats. Most of us don't mind a chance to show off what we know, we just don't want to HAVE TO do it nor pay for it. If we can avoid that fate by educating the casual paddler, great. But . . . Our club and others in the Baltimore/DC area offer tons of informational/skills opportunities for area paddlers. CPA is the safety Nazi of the Chesapeake Bay, according to some. But, we really don't offer much for the casual paddler in the Kiwi paddling up the Potomac River. That isn't what we do. Do you? Most of the rec paddlers would bet money that their boat won't sink. They don't know that bow or stern or even the coaming sticking out of the water is not very useful. You have to PROVE to them the boat will go over/scuttle. You have to PROVE to them that all that stability is fun to surf but won't keep them going straight in wind and waves and will just add to the chance of going over in high water. All doubting Thomases. The people selling the boats think they know what they are talking about. I've been bold enough to butt into a conversation or two about boats in stores. The clerks may not like it but some things are just too wrong to tell people. Misinformation is contagious. They do want to learn and be safe. I have had several people come to me to learn rescues in their rec boats at the pool. I'm stumped. I loan them my extra paddle floats, show them the stirrups, talk them through their attempts and feel helpless as they struggle to do what I can't do. They succeed many times. I'm jealous but I'll just have to loose weight if I plan to be successful :< I don't paddle our rec boat except under the most controlled and safe conditions just because I can't self-rescue in it. A reenter and roll with a paddle float is the only thing that works. Then I'm really swamped. It takes FOREVER to pump out that water. If I can't do it for myself, how can I offer help to other middle aged, over weight, out of shape people looking for a way to get out on the water? Who do I send them to? Is there really a way to help them except the tell them there is a risk and they are now seeing they can get out but not in? What SHOULD we tell rec boat paddlers, if we are going to take that job on? I tell them you have seen the problem. You have to judge for yourself if you are safe if you can't get back into your boat. Adopt the BCU philosophy of never paddle alone. Learn assisted rescues. Here is the information on cold water. Take a swim with your PFD so you'll know how far you can swim with it on. Don't even think of taking it off, no matter how hard it is to swim with it on. Learn to use your paddle to swim. It's even fun. Carry a pump and paddle float for just in case. The pump is a great squirt-gun. At least the boats like the Carolina, which newbie rollers keep bringing to the pool to learn to roll in, can be used for a paddle-float rescues. I had no idea what to tell the 190 lb guy with the Kiwi, except he is too big for that boat. That is why it feels tippy. I have another fellow and his wife coming to the pool tomorrow. I'm bringing my plastic, sea kayak to teach them the basics of the assisted rescues. I wonder if I can get one of them to stand up in their boat to prove it works. It's flat enough <G>. The bottom line is that they do want to learn but what resources are really out there? I catch the requests because I coordinate the pool sessions for the club. But we really don't do rec boats. I don't know anyone who does. We won't even let them paddle with us because they have to have flotation and USE a skirt while paddling on club trips. Heck, a skirt won't fit most of them. Our Bayou can take a skirt and we did put the flotation in it but we are not the usual. I had to PROVE to my S.O. that we could sink the boat to get that flotation put in the boat. Joan *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. 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While I agree with Kevin's conclusions and his sentiments, I feel he arrives at them by spurious reasoning. The first guy in a bull boat had probably spent years floating around on a log, thinking what he'd do if he could get his hands on a spare buffalo hide and a really big willow basket. Leif Erickson was born into one of the greatest seafaring traditions of all time. To speak of "lessons," when his whole upbringing was one long apprenticeship, is to miss the point. You may as well say that his first "wet exit" involved amniotic fluid... Same for Knud Rasmussen and Fridjof Nansen. And what I can say for Roald Amundsen is that he had the sense to winter on Antarctica aboard the Belgica before his own polar attempt, borrow Nansen's ship Fram, use his boyhood skill in skiing, and add to it by learning to use dogsleds while living with Greenland Eskimos. These guys were *prepared*. That said, I'm a believer in self-nomination for Darwin Awards. If our chubby fisherman survives his brush with eternity, he'll be a much more attentive student at his first paddling lesson. Dan Harrison >Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 23:51:25 EDT >From: Kevin50110_at_aol.com >Subject: Re: [Paddlewise] Rec Boat Scenario >Wow.... After reading all these informed replies I wouldn't let a single >overweight guy who likes to fish in a boat; let alone a kayak, without at >least 6 months of intensive survival training by the appropriate government >authority. >[snip] >Remember the first guy in a bull boat had no lessons; Ericksen went West. no >lessons.....Rasmussen went East, no lessons. Fridtjof Nansen went wherever he >wanted, no lessons required. Amundssen, what can you say? >No certificates needed before entering the water...... It's an affair of the >heart. >Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
I know. Every time I cast off it's mine... not the governments, not the kayak schools, not the media's, not anybody's but my own. No tags, no license, no authority what-so- ever. It's the place I answer to no one except myself. That is something to protect. Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
Nansen, Amundssen, Peary, Staff Sgt Williams, ....Ed and Mary...your next door neighbors. You miss the point. It's not gear, it's not classes, it's not experience. It is an affair of the heart. You know it when you see it in a newbie, and if you don't see it in yourself, I'm sorry. I may be a hopeless romantic but every time I get water under my butt I feel just right. Just like everything is where it should be. I do not take lessons, I have not taken lessons, to feel this way. Yes I have taken rolling lessons. I may be a romantic but I'm not stupid. I just figured the sea sorts out. I thought you had to have the heart to go to sea in a small boat and the flares be damned. I'm not a tee shirt and shorts guy in January, far from it, I have a couple of pounds of emergency equipment, but I see a lot of tech stuff talk, and not a lot of basic seamanship on this site. So be it, I'm not great navigator myself, but I do know this: it is not your boat, your paddle, or GPS. Every time I point my bow west I figure, Yokohama is just a fair bit out there. Or maybe Shanghai. Kevin *************************************************************************** PaddleWise Paddling Mailing List - Any opinions or suggestions expressed here are solely those of the writer(s). You must assume the entire responsibility for reliance upon them. All postings copyright the author. Submissions: PaddleWise_at_PaddleWise.net Subscriptions: PaddleWise-request_at_PaddleWise.net Website: http://www.paddlewise.net/ ***************************************************************************
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